Morecambe Branch - Ideas/suggestions/development potential

[dunc695]

As many might know, the current Morecambe station was rebuilt in BR days and still has an arrangement of two bi-directional single lines from Bare Lane, one provides access to the Heysham Branch.

It might be a long shot, but I think the Branch certainly has electrification potential and there's little by the way of significant works from the WCML. There's also room for platform lengthening. I still think the jointed track needs upgrading.

I had made suggestions in the past of expanding Branch operations to incorporate the Heysham Branch, given the large areas of residential development, but this has always fallen on deaf ears.

Eden Project North is also on the horizon, could this spur any improvement?

 

[bluenoxid]

Some of the comments in this thread are enlightening and shifted my view of Morecambe being a good place to electrify via conventional overhead line electrification

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/are-there-any-‘easy-win’-electrification-projects-that-are-worth-looking-at.239231/page-19#post-6059522

 

[dunc695]

Some of the comments in this thread are enlightening and shifted my view of Morecambe being a good place to electrify via conventional overhead line electrification

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/are-there-any-‘easy-win’-electrification-projects-that-are-worth-looking-at.239231/page-19#post-6059522

Don't forget the former direct line to Lancaster Green Ayre was electrified by the Midland Railway as early as 1908. It was later used as a test bed for future catenary structures some to be used on the main line.

Some good news for Heysham Port today as well.

Multi-million pound freight ferry investment will 'boost Heysham capacity by 80 per cent'

Two new ferries are being built to join an expanding freight service between Heysham and Belfast, it has been announced.

www.beyondradio.co.uk

 

[Bletchleyite]

The problem with Heysham is that it runs round the back of the town and doesn't really serve anywhere better than a bus.

If anything my inclination might be to close Heysham to passengers (a coach shuttle from Lancaster station would probably serve ferry passengers better, and could adjust timings more readily if the ferry has to be rescheduled for weather as it often is) and to make the necessary improvements to the Morecambe part to allow a half-hourly clockface shuttle to operate, branded "The Bay Metro" and used as a key part of getting people who arrive by rail to the new Eden Project. Present running time is 11 minutes, so with some tweaks half hourly should be possible, subject to WCML pathing, even if you perhaps have to miss one out maybe three or four times a day at quiet times to allow any delays to be caught up.

Wires might be nice, or a battery bi-mode unit could be used. It'd arguably be ideal for a three-car battery 230 with the standee interior as it can get quite busy at times even now.

 

[FlyingPotato]

The problem with Heysham is that it runs round the back of the town and doesn't really serve anywhere better than a bus.

If anything my inclination might be to close Heysham to passengers (a coach shuttle from Lancaster station would probably serve ferry passengers better, and could adjust timings more readily if the ferry has to be rescheduled for weather as it often is) and to make the necessary improvements to the Morecambe part to allow a half-hourly clockface shuttle to operate, branded "The Bay Metro" and used as a key part of getting people who arrive by rail to the new Eden Project. Present running time is 11 minutes, so with some tweaks half hourly should be possible, subject to WCML pathing, even if you perhaps have to miss one out maybe three or four times a day at quiet times to allow any delays to be caught up.

Wires might be nice, or a battery bi-mode unit could be used. It'd arguably be ideal for a three-car battery 230 with the standee interior as it can get quite busy at times even now.

The Heysham train is often cancelled and replaced by a bus, and it no longer goes to Leeds
And you have the X2 fast bus to Heysham
So it would be better to cancel it
And focus on the train to Morecambe

 

[Bletchleyite]

The Heysham train is often cancelled and replaced by a bus, and it no longer goes to Leeds
And you have the X2 fast bus to Heysham
So it would be better to cancel it
And focus on the train to Morecambe

The 2X (not X2) doesn't go to the port. I would suggest a dedicated ferry connection tendered by Steam Packet which you could book alongside your ferry ticket so they'd know numbers. I'm sure Kirkby Lonsdale Coach Hire or similar would happily do it. The Heysham branch is purely about serving the port, it doesn't fulful any local travel purposes at all as the port is a fair way from the town.

But yes, I'd suggest withdrawing Morecambe<->Heysham as a passenger service and looking to build a half hourly clockface "The Bay Metro".

 

[FlyingPotato]

You can just do an extension of the X2 for the ferry, but a coach would be better for the ferry as there is a lot of pain when lugging stuff on a stagecoach bus

 

[Bletchleyite]

You can just do an extension of the X2 for the ferry, but a coach would be better for the ferry as there is a lot of pain when lugging stuff on a stagecoach bus

Yes, you'd want something with lots of luggage space and cycle carriage (a lot of people take pushbikes across, and due to the lay of the land cycling them there with luggage is a bit of a faff). TBH a dedicated vehicle might not be a terrible idea. But it wouldn't be the railway that would run or tender it, it'd be Steam Packet.

 

[dunc695]

The Heysham train is often cancelled and replaced by a bus, and it no longer goes to Leeds
And you have the X2 fast bus to Heysham
So it would be better to cancel it
And focus on the train to Morecambe

Years ago before the boat train came back I'm sure what was then Lancaster City Transport ran a dedicated bus from Morecambe Promenade direct to Heysham Port for the Ferry this was obviously done away with when the train came back. The Boat Train ran from Manchester for years its a shame it didn't make a comeback but you'd need decent stock.

I've used the 2X it's a faster way to Heysham but turns around at Combermere Road and doesn't serve the Port. Heysham Port Station has become a bleak, windswept place since the long canopies were removed, almost on par with Stranraer but at least there's a Ferry here.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Years ago before the boat train came back I'm sure what was then Lancaster City Transport ran a dedicated bus from Morecambe Promenade direct to Heysham Port for the Ferry this was obviously done away with when the train came back.

They did, yes, I've seen a photo of it (but don't have it to hand).

These days running one from Lancaster station direct to the port via the Bay Gateway (not via Morecambe) would probably be the best bet.

 

[FlyingPotato]

If possible would it be a good Idea to have a Morecambe to Carnforth shuttle service using the north curve once an hour
Alongside this proposal 2ph to Lancaster

 

[dunc695]

If possible would it be a good Idea to have a Morecambe to Carnforth shuttle service using the north curve once an hour
Alongside this proposal 2ph to Lancaster

Morecambe to Leeds trains did originally run direct to Carnforth over the Hest Bank Curve with some Lancaster services running separately.

I quite like the 158s currently operating the Bentham line they were a huge improvement on Pacers they replaced and far better for a cross pennine journey

 

[randyrippley]

Years ago before the boat train came back I'm sure what was then Lancaster City Transport ran a dedicated bus from Morecambe Promenade direct to Heysham Port for the Ferry this was obviously done away with when the train came back. The Boat Train ran from Manchester for years its a shame it didn't make a comeback but you'd need decent stock.

I've used the 2X it's a faster way to Heysham but turns around at Combermere Road and doesn't serve the Port. Heysham Port Station has become a bleak, windswept place since the long canopies were removed, almost on par with Stranraer but at least there's a Ferry here.

The commercial service to Heysham port was the University - Heysham "trek" service variously numbered 72/472 and jointly run by LCT and Ribble. Long since curtailed in the fallout from deregulation.
The SteamPacket (and before that Sealink Manx Ferries) also chartered a fleet of trailer-towing Atlanteans from Lonsdale Coaches (who were later taken over by LCT).If you google the web there are several photos of both Sealink blue and Sherwood white livery, and a rather impressive SteamPacket black, red and white.
Some days there could be six deckers plus trailers on the job

there are a number fo photos of the SteamPacket contract bus fleet on Ian Simpson's flicker page

228-02

Lancaster City Council Metro-Cammell bodied Leyland Atlantean open topper 228, DBA 228 C in Sealink allover advert livery at Heysham Village Bus Station. This bus was new to Salford City Transport, later operating for S.E.L.N.E.C. P.T.E. & Greater Manchester P.T.E. before joining the Lancaster...

www.flickr.com

165-01

Lonsdale Coaches Alexander bodied Leyland Atlantean 165, NRG165M in Isle Of Man Steam Packet Co. allover advert livery on Quarry Road, Lancaster. This bus was new to Aberdeen Corporation.

www.flickr.com

170-01

Lonsdale Coaches Alexander bodied Leyland Atlantean 170, NRG170M in Isle Of Man Steam Packet Co. allover advert livery at Lancaster Rail Station. This bus was new to Aberdeen Corporation.

www.flickr.com

and another from "Solenteer"

Lancaster 170 - NRG 170M

Lonsdale Coaches depot, Middleton Road, Heysham

www.flickr.com

 

[childwallblues]

There were about twenty years ago direct trains from Liverpool to Morecambe worked by Liverpool crews one of which stayed in the area to work the Lancaster shuttles.

 

[A0]

As many might know, the current Morecambe station was rebuilt in BR days and still has an arrangement of two bi-directional single lines from Bare Lane, one provides access to the Heysham Branch.

It might be a long shot, but I think the Branch certainly has electrification potential and there's little by the way of significant works from the WCML. There's also room for platform lengthening. I still think the jointed track needs upgrading.

I had made suggestions in the past of expanding Branch operations to incorporate the Heysham Branch, given the large areas of residential development, but this has always fallen on deaf ears.

Eden Project North is also on the horizon, could this spur any improvement?

Bit in bold - no.

Outside of London, virtually no major tourist attraction gets significant numbers of visitors arriving by rail. Sorry, but that's how it is.

And any such visiting would be highly seasonal - think school holidays primarily - which means you then have huge peaks and troughs in demand. The exact opposite of what the railway needs when planning a "business as usual" service.

 

[dunc695]

Bit in bold - no.

Outside of London, virtually no major tourist attraction gets significant numbers of visitors arriving by rail. Sorry, but that's how it is.

And any such visiting would be highly seasonal - think school holidays primarily - which means you then have huge peaks and troughs in demand. The exact opposite of what the railway needs when planning a "business as usual" service.

What about places like Blackpool, Manchester and Liverpool? All 3 of those places in the North West are significant tourist centres with attractions, the cities have year round attractions like the Museum of Science and Industry in Manchester and the Maritime Museum or Tate Gallery in Liverpool. Blackpool may be more seasonal.

The Windermere Branch in the Lake District is often heaving - another year round destination.

From my own personal experience plenty of visitors arrive to those places by rail, if the right ingredients are there.

 

[A0]

What about places like Blackpool, Manchester and Liverpool? All 3 of those places in the North West are significant tourist centres with attractions, the cities have year round attractions like the Museum of Science and Industry in Manchester and the Maritime Museum or Tate Gallery in Liverpool. Blackpool may be more seasonal.

From my own personal experience plenty of visitors arrive to those places by rail.

Try re-reading my post - I said "no major tourist attraction" - places like Liverpool, Manchester or Birmingham don't have just one attraction - they have many attractions which lead to multiple visitors.

Eden Project would be *one* attraction - Morecambe doesn't have other attractions. So whilst a train into Manchester may be carrying tourists, some will go to the Science Museum, some will be going to Art galleries, some will be going shopping etc etc - all of those things combined make a train service viable.

Blackpool is totally seasonal - they extend their season by having the illuminations - but go to Blackpool in the middle of February and see how busy the trains are.

 

[dunc695]

Try re-reading my post - I said "no major tourist attraction" - places like Liverpool, Manchester or Birmingham don't have just one attraction - they have many attractions which lead to multiple visitors.

Eden Project would be *one* attraction - Morecambe doesn't have other attractions. So whilst a train into Manchester may be carrying tourists, some will go to the Science Museum, some will be going to Art galleries, some will be going shopping etc etc - all of those things combined make a train service viable.

Blackpool is totally seasonal - they extend their season by having the illuminations - but go to Blackpool in the middle of February and see how busy the trains are.

I'm hoping the Eden Project does spur other attractions for Morecambe. The existing Winter Gardens and Midland Hotel are fantastic historical buildings.

 

[FlyingPotato]

I'm hoping the Eden Project does spur other attractions for Morecambe. The existing Winter Gardens and Midland Hotel are fantastic historical buildings.

It hopefully will, Morecambe needs investment badly

It can also be used for scenic tourism as there are decent views across the bay towards the mountains


But the thing with this bay metro, it would need to be more than just Lancaster to Morecambe and back

 

[A0]

I'm hoping the Eden Project does spur other attractions for Morecambe. The existing Winter Gardens and Midland Hotel are fantastic historical buildings.

But are not, and will never, be mass tourist attractions. Old buildings have a relatively narrow interest group - it might appeal to people who like those things, but they're not exactly "must see" family attractions.

I've made this point before - but it's worth restating, the current Eden Project in Cornwall with all the tourist trade that was already going to Cornwall only gets about 650,000 visitors a year

ALVA | Association of Leading Visitor Attractions

The members of ALVA are the UK's most popular, iconic and important museums, galleries, palaces, castles, cathedrals, zoos, historic houses, heritage sites, gardens and leisure attractions.

www.alva.org.uk

To put that in context, Tower Bridge attracts more visitors. Whipsnade Zoo - which is not rail linked at all attracts over 100,000 more.

It hopefully will, Morecambe needs investment badly

It can also be used for scenic tourism as there are decent views across the bay towards the mountains


But the thing with this bay metro, it would need to be more than just Lancaster to Morecambe and back

But you're massively overstating / overestimating / overguessing the numbers who are likely to visit. It'll be in penny figures at best.

 

[FlyingPotato]

But are not, and will never, be mass tourist attractions.

I've made this point before - but it's worth restating, the current Eden Project in Cornwall with all the tourist trade that was already going to Cornwall only gets about 650,000 visitors a year

ALVA | Association of Leading Visitor Attractions

The members of ALVA are the UK's most popular, iconic and important museums, galleries, palaces, castles, cathedrals, zoos, historic houses, heritage sites, gardens and leisure attractions.

www.alva.org.uk

To put that in context, Tower Bridge attracts more visitors. Whipsnade Zoo - which is not rail linked at all attracts over 100,000 more.



But you're massively overstating / overestimating / overguessing the numbers who are likely to visit. It'll be in penny figures at best.

That's why you'd also need to promote it as regional tourism in the surrounding area. Look at Lancaster university, try advertising it to the students there as a seaside day out

It would be a long term thing but Morecambe could regrow and have the urban regeneration it so desperately needs

 

[A0]

That's why you'd also need to promote it as regional tourism in the surrounding area. Look at Lancaster university, try advertising it to the students there as a seaside day out

It would be a long term thing but Morecambe could regrow and have the urban regeneration it so desperately needs

Sorry - but this is barking at the moon territory.

"Seaside days out" went out of fashion years ago - who wants to wander around Morecambe beach when it's 8 degrees outside and raining ? Answer, nobody.

Morecambe won't regenerate as a tourist honeypot, nor will many seaside towns up and down the country, for the simple reason there aren't enough people who want to go and visit them - even if you built the Eden Project, a local equivalent of Disneyworld and relocated the Natural History Museum there - it wouldn't make much difference.

And last time I checked, students weren't exactly big spenders - so sending the students over from Lancaster Uni might do the local Wetherspoons some extra trade, but they're not exactly going to fork out £ 10 to wander around the Winter Gardens in their masses and have afternoon tea there.

 

[dunc695]

It hopefully will, Morecambe needs investment badly

It can also be used for scenic tourism as there are decent views across the bay towards the mountains


But the thing with this bay metro, it would need to be more than just Lancaster to Morecambe and b

There was an idea years ago of using the former Green Ayre line for a self contained Metro system. I'd have problems at Lancaster with Greyhound Bridge now a road.

The pic attached shows the current layout at Morecambe. The run around loop now disused as the Flasks are top & tailed.

Sorry - but this is barking at the moon territory.

"Seaside days out" went out of fashion years ago - who wants to wander around Morecambe beach when it's 8 degrees outside and raining ? Answer, nobody.

Morecambe won't regenerate as a tourist honeypot, nor will many seaside towns up and down the country, for the simple reason there aren't enough people who want to go and visit them - even if you built the Eden Project, a local equivalent of Disneyworld and relocated the Natural History Museum there - it wouldn't make much difference.

And last time I checked, students weren't exactly big spenders - so sending the students over from Lancaster Uni might do the local Wetherspoons some extra trade, but they're not exactly going to fork out £ 10 to wander around the Winter Gardens in their masses and have afternoon tea there.

The Winter Gardens would have to be a year round attraction and multi purpose in its use. A concert by the Levellers last year which used the venue was a sellout. People came from a wide catchment area to see them too. Proof if you have some solid acts and promoters involved, people will come.

 

[FlyingPotato]

Sorry - but this is barking at the moon territory.

"Seaside days out" went out of fashion years ago - who wants to wander around Morecambe beach when it's 8 degrees outside and raining ? Answer, nobody.

Morecambe won't regenerate as a tourist honeypot, nor will many seaside towns up and down the country, for the simple reason there aren't enough people who want to go and visit them - even if you built the Eden Project, a local equivalent of Disneyworld and relocated the Natural History Museum there - it wouldn't make much difference.

And last time I checked, students weren't exactly big spenders - so sending the students over from Lancaster Uni might do the local Wetherspoons some extra trade, but they're not exactly going to fork out £ 10 to wander around the Winter Gardens in their masses and have afternoon tea there.

Except people would do it if it was marketed properly
It's quite cynical to think that we should just let Morecambe collapse and stay as a dump

 

[Bartsimho]

Except people would do it if it was marketed properly
It's quite cynical to think that we should just let Morecambe collapse and stay as a dump

So many on here think we should be a Country just to feed everything to London.
We should be positioning rail as a key way to regenerate the entire country and not just to feed London.

I wonder what many on here would have said about any proposals in the Docklands of London in the 1960's?
We see where it has gone due to developers with a vision and funding. We can see what can be done and while it's unlikely anything would be to that scale it should be proof that with a plan and some capital and area can be regenerated into something desirable.

 

[A0]

Except people would do it if it was marketed properly
It's quite cynical to think that we should just let Morecambe collapse and stay as a dump

Try harder - you can't market something people don't want to buy. That's the way it is.

And Morecambe is no more attractive than a multitude of other seaside towns up and down the country. Expecting a bit of marketing to return them to their heyday - which ended in the 1960s as people chose to head to sunnier climes if they wanted to go to a beach - is simply for the birds. Even putting another Eden Project there won't make much difference - because people will go to that and nothing else, so day trippers from parts of the North West will turn up, but that's not going to be big numbers - even on 750k a year, that's ~ 15k a week or about 2,000 people a day or, over a 12 hour period, 150 people which is about the seating capacity of a 2 car DMU.......

So many on here think we should be a Country just to feed everything to London.
We should be positioning rail as a key way to regenerate the entire country and not just to feed London.

I wonder what many on here would have said about any proposals in the Docklands of London in the 1960's?
We see where it has gone due to developers with a vision and funding. We can see what can be done and while it's unlikely anything would be to that scale it should be proof that with a plan and some capital and area can be regenerated into something desirable.

No - not at all - but to pretend you can turn Morecambe into a tourist honeypot which warrants a massively uplifted rail service is denying reality.

And London Docklands really isn't comparable - it's not a tourist destination and never has been. It's basically a huge office complex - which in turn did (at least until Covid struck) result in huge numbers of people commuting into it 5 days a week. If you walked around the Docklands area on a Saturday it was much, much quieter than other areas of London such as the West End, Tower Bridge / Tower of London area or even places like Kew Gardens or Richmond Park.

Docklands is comparable to the Salford Quays area of Manchester - but again, it's driven by employment, not visitor attractions.

 

[FlyingPotato]

I never said a hotspot, but you could use it to attract people from the regional area which could help in its urban regeneration

 

[zwk500]

I never said a hotspot, but you could use it to attract people from the regional area which could help in its urban regeneration

Days out on the seaside appeal to a very small minority of students, and largely they will all pile into a mate's car and split the petrol between them. (I went to York, trips to Scarborough by train were not unknown but hardly going to be a healthy baseline for TPE).

 

[Bartsimho]

Try harder - you can't market something people don't want to buy. That's the way it is.

And Morecambe is no more attractive than a multitude of other seaside towns up and down the country. Expecting a bit of marketing to return them to their heyday - which ended in the 1960s as people chose to head to sunnier climes if they wanted to go to a beach - is simply for the birds. Even putting another Eden Project there won't make much difference - because people will go to that and nothing else, so day trippers from parts of the North West will turn up, but that's not going to be big numbers - even on 750k a year, that's ~ 15k a week or about 2,000 people a day or, over a 12 hour period, 150 people which is about the seating capacity of a 2 car DMU.......



No - not at all - but to pretend you can turn Morecambe into a tourist honeypot which warrants a massively uplifted rail service is denying reality.

And London Docklands really isn't comparable - it's not a tourist destination and never has been. It's basically a huge office complex - which in turn did (at least until Covid struck) result in huge numbers of people commuting into it 5 days a week. If you walked around the Docklands area on a Saturday it was much, much quieter than other areas of London such as the West End, Tower Bridge / Tower of London area or even places like Kew Gardens or Richmond Park.

Docklands is comparable to the Salford Quays area of Manchester - but again, it's driven by employment, not visitor attractions.

So we could also try and create employment as part of regeneration projects involving rail then? Nowhere can be a single sector place anymore but we can use rail to serve plenty of them.

For Morecambe having some tourist attractions (along with deals for students from Lancaster to travel by train) along with maybe placing employment in Lancaster to create flows both ways so Lancaster, Morecambe and Heysham can act as one economic unit together linked by rail. Employment in Lancaster, Recreation in Morecambe and Freight/Travel in Heysham.

Days out on the seaside appeal to a very small minority of students, and largely they will all pile into a mate's car and split the petrol between them. (I went to York, trips to Scarborough by train were not unknown but hardly going to be a healthy baseline for TPE).

I think that's a vast overestimation of how many Uni students take their cars to University. It's maybe 5-10% of all students and this changes if it's a City Centre University. While Lancaster is a dedicated Campus not many will have cars there due to dedicated subsidised transport to Lancaster. Advertising dedicated days out from the University would provide trade.

 

[zwk500]

So we could also try and create employment as part of regeneration projects involving rail then? Nowhere can be a single sector place anymore but we can use rail to serve plenty of them.

But you've got have people to sell to at the end of the day, and there just isn't a big market in the Lancashire area. Why would companies who need to trade widely locate themselves in Morecambe rather than Preston or Carlisle?

For Morecambe having some tourist attractions (along with deals for students from Lancaster to travel by train) along with maybe placing employment in Lancaster to create flows both ways so Lancaster, Morecambe and Heysham can act as one economic unit together linked by rail. Employment in Lancaster, Recreation in Morecambe and Freight/Travel in Heysham.

There is only 1 freight flow that will go by rail to Heysham - Nuclear fuel. It simply won't be worth the while of any other commercial flow given the need to runround at Morecambe and the length this limits trains to.

I think that's a vast overestimation of how many Uni students take their cars to University. It's maybe 5-10% of all students and this changes if it's a City Centre University. While Lancaster is a dedicated Campus not many will have cars there due to dedicated subsidised transport to Lancaster. Advertising dedicated days out from the University would provide trade.

As mentioned, I went to York 10 years ago which is a campus but with the majority of student housing in the city centre, and I had multiple first degrees of connection to a car. But I think you are seriously overestimating the number of students who are going to go to the beach. The number of students who are going to go to Morecambe for a day at the beach is probably smaller than the number who have access to a car. And all of this is dependent on the weather - Lancashire being not exactly famed for a Mediterranean climate.

If you want to boost usage of the Morecambe branch you need to build some houses and have good connections at Lancaster into Manchester and London trains. A half-hourly battery EMU would do that pretty neatly.