Morecambe Branch - Ideas/suggestions/development potential

[Bevan Price]

Eden Project Cornwall charges £ 33 to 38 per adult (price depends on season), and £11 to 12 per child. Whilst that is OK for a single visit, I don't expect it attracts huge numbers of repeat visitors. If Morecambe Eden Project charges similar fees, after an initial surge, I don't expect massive numbers of repeat visitors - maybe a few thousand per week, of which possibly 5-10% might travel by train to Morecambe, and unlikely to be enough to justify electrification.

Electrification to eliminate a "diesel island" would only be justified if Lancaster to Barrow, and the Windermere line were also to be electrified; whilst I would say it was a good idea, I doubt that DfT will ever approve the funding.

 

[randyrippley]

Shut the line and instead build the cablecar, as in this thread

Cablecar service for Lancaster, Morecambe and Eden Project North

not my idea, something in the Lancaster Guardian this week https://www.lancasterguardian.co.uk/business/82m-30m-high-aerial-tramway-vision-would-link-eden-project-north-to-lancaster-university-and-m6-1-9897532 It looks like the Eden Project North is going to happen in Morecambe, is this the way...

www.railforums.co.uk

lots of advantages including removing a lot of conflicts in Lancaster

 

[MarkyT]

Eden Project Cornwall charges £ 33 to 38 per adult (price depends on season), and £11 to 12 per child. Whilst that is OK for a single visit, I don't expect it attracts huge numbers of repeat visitors. If Morecambe Eden Project charges similar fees, after an initial surge, I don't expect massive numbers of repeat visitors - maybe a few thousand per week, of which possibly 5-10% might travel by train to Morecambe, and unlikely to be enough to justify electrification.

In Cornwall, the single admission ticket is actually an annual season for unlimited entry.

Book tickets

Book online to get the best value tickets to the Eden Project. You must pre-book online to visit on our busiest days in school holidays. On other days, tickets are available on arrival.

www.edenproject.com

Our general admission tickets are also Annual Passes, which give you unlimited entry to Eden for a whole year from the selected date

Electrification to eliminate a "diesel island" would only be justified if Lancaster to Barrow, and the Windermere line were also to be electrified; whilst I would say it was a good idea, I doubt that DfT will ever approve the funding.

Morecambe, even purely as a branch shuttle, is a perfect application for battery trains with only a fairly modest storage capacity requirement, about half the circuit distance already under wires and layover in a dedicated electrified bay at Lancaster. That is electrification, just not requiring any new infrastructure. Through trains from further south would have an even greater proportion of journey time/distance under wires for en-route charging.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Shut the line and instead build the cablecar, as in this thread

Cablecar service for Lancaster, Morecambe and Eden Project North

not my idea, something in the Lancaster Guardian this week https://www.lancasterguardian.co.uk/business/82m-30m-high-aerial-tramway-vision-would-link-eden-project-north-to-lancaster-university-and-m6-1-9897532 It looks like the Eden Project North is going to happen in Morecambe, is this the way...

www.railforums.co.uk

lots of advantages including removing a lot of conflicts in Lancaster

Ridiculous idea.

If I was building anything, it'd be an electric tramway along the old Green Ayre route up to the M6 P&R site via the city centre (currently an MK Redway-like cycle path, albeit one with a serious crime problem), but even that probably isn't necessary, the Bay Gateway is uncongested enough to allow an electric bus P&R to be more than adequate for those arriving for the Eden Project by car.

In Cornwall, the single admission ticket is actually an annual season for unlimited entry.

Very common as it allows the charity operating it to claim a chunk of extra money as Gift Aid because charity membership subscriptions are Gift Aidable even if they confer benefit, unlike almost everything else. Some preserved railways are selling annual seasons on the same basis for very reasonable prices, on the basis that most people won't use them every week (though a few people obviously will).

In reality most people will go once, but some will take advantage of the flexibility.

Morecambe, even purely as a branch shuttle, is a perfect application for battery trains with only a fairly modest storage capacity requirement, about half the circuit distance already under wires and layover in a dedicated electrified bay at Lancaster. That is electrification, just not requiring any new infrastructure. Through trains from further south would have an even greater proportion of journey time/distance under wires for en-route charging.

It's entirely possible that whatever Northern are ordering as 150 replacements (the thread on that suggests the current preferred bidder is "surprising", which to me kind of suggests it might be something like Stadler tri-modes rather than the more-expected CAF DMUs) will be a drop-in for this.

 

[A0]

You would be surprised how far commuters go outside Manchester. Whilst doing ticket checks pre covid for TPE Lancaster and Oxenholme were well represented.

Some, no doubt - Lancaster - Manchester is 50 miles - for comparison that's equivalent to London - Bedford, London - Brighton or London - Colchester all of which have much bigger commuter flows to London than Lancaster or Oxenholme do to Manchester.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Some, no doubt - Lancaster - Manchester is 50 miles - for comparison that's equivalent to London - Bedford, London - Brighton or London - Colchester all of which have much bigger commuter flows to London than Lancaster or Oxenholme do to Manchester.

Manchester's commuter hinterland is growing somewhat as its house prices skyrocket. I'd consider commuting from Lancaster (nice, and cheap housing) to Manchester, you'd be looking at a similar end to end as I have to London now (longer train journey but shorter at both ends) and half the price (ish), albeit a last train about three hours* earlier.

However there indeed won't be quite the numbers as there aren't quite the jobs.

Morecambe I can't really see going that way, though. It's quite poor and a bit rough, it's an extra change (as I don't think anyone's proposing a Morecambe-Manchester service), and if you want to live in the seaside and commute to Manchester (as some people certainly do), Southport is likely to be a better choice anyway.

* Noting which I'd be unsurprised to find out that some people who do commute to Manchester from Lancaster do so by driving to Preston station for the vastly superior service, with the odd use of a taxi back home and back in the morning if going out for drinks after work.

 

[dunc695]

Manchester's commuter hinterland is growing somewhat as its house prices skyrocket. I'd consider commuting from Lancaster (nice, and cheap housing) to Manchester, you'd be looking at a similar end to end as I have to London now (longer train journey but shorter at both ends) and half the price (ish), albeit a last train about three hours* earlier.

However there indeed won't be quite the numbers as there aren't quite the jobs.

Morecambe I can't really see going that way, though. It's quite poor and a bit rough, it's an extra change (as I don't think anyone's proposing a Morecambe-Manchester service), and if you want to live in the seaside and commute to Manchester (as some people certainly do), Southport is likely to be a better choice anyway.

* Noting which I'd be unsurprised to find out that some people who do commute to Manchester from Lancaster do so by driving to Preston station for the vastly superior service, with the odd use of a taxi back home and back in the morning if going out for drinks after work.

I wouldn't agree with that totally, the Bare end of town is quite posh with some impressive properties up Broadway. I'd also say Blackpool and Southport have their share of crime and drug problems, in fact in Blackpool it's probably worse with some very rough looking streets on South shore, the town centre isn't perfect either. The Young Farmers and Stag & Hen parties can also bring in trouble fuelled by alcohol.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I wouldn't agree with that totally, the Bare end of town is quite posh with some impressive properties up Broadway. I'd also say Blackpool and Southport have their share of crime and drug problems, in fact in Blackpool it's probably worse with some very rough looking streets on South shore, the town centre isn't perfect either. The Young Farmers and Stag & Hen parties can also bring in trouble fuelled by alcohol.

Blackpool is a totally different place, I'd agree. Morecambe probably compares in visitor terms with the likes of West Kirby which while a lot posher than Morecambe is similarly mostly used by locals. I was going to say Southport but that has far more attractions these days - in its heyday it was probably about the same though.

Of course Eden could change a lot.

Bare is indeed posh (very similar to northern Blackpool which is posh, whereas south-central Blackpool is a dump), but I wasn't really thinking of that, and I don't think Bare justifies a through service to Manchester any more than Aughton Park (a not entirely dissimilar place), or if we want to use Blackpool then St Anne's, does.

 

[M&NEJ]

I don't think anyone's proposing a Morecambe-Manchester service

I have proposed a Morecambe to Manchester or Liverpool service, in a similar thread on this subject (Morecambe and the Eden project).

As has been noted before, Morecambe did have a Liverpool service until the West Coast route Modernisation came along. It would benefit Morecambe to have through trains beyond Lancaster.

It would also draw more people to use the train to get to the Eden project than with the currently hap-hazard connections or non-connections at Lancaster (noting that the big urban centres are likely to provide the Eden project's visitor numbers). Despite much hot air about attracting people to Eden by public transport there is a vacuum in terms of real proposals, except perhaps for the notion of park and ride from the M6.

 

[childwallblues]

Manchester's commuter hinterland is growing somewhat as its house prices skyrocket. I'd consider commuting from Lancaster (nice, and cheap housing) to Manchester, you'd be looking at a similar end to end as I have to London now (longer train journey but shorter at both ends) and half the price (ish), albeit a last train about three hours* earlier.

However there indeed won't be quite the numbers as there aren't quite the jobs.

Morecambe I can't really see going that way, though. It's quite poor and a bit rough, it's an extra change (as I don't think anyone's proposing a Morecambe-Manchester service), and if you want to live in the seaside and commute to Manchester (as some people certainly do), Southport is likely to be a better choice anyway.

* Noting which I'd be unsurprised to find out that some people who do commute to Manchester from Lancaster do so by driving to Preston station for the vastly superior service, with the odd use of a taxi back home and back in the morning if going out for drinks after work.

Preston station car park I bet is expensive.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Preston station car park I bet is expensive.

£12/day if I recall. But there might be decent season options.

 

[randyrippley]

Whats really needed from a Morecambe point of view during the summer is a Blackpool-Preston-Lancaster-Morecambe-Windermere service, linking the lakes and Blackpool attractions to Morecambe's Eden project and Lancaster's castle.
I realise this would cause pathing problems at Preston, but in would maximise the tourist crossflow into Morecambe from the other towns

 

[Bevan Price]

I have proposed a Morecambe to Manchester or Liverpool service, in a similar thread on this subject (Morecambe and the Eden project).

As has been noted before, Morecambe did have a Liverpool service until the West Coast route Modernisation came along. It would benefit Morecambe to have through trains beyond Lancaster.

It would also draw more people to use the train to get to the Eden project than with the currently hap-hazard connections or non-connections at Lancaster (noting that the big urban centres are likely to provide the Eden project's visitor numbers). Despite much hot air about attracting people to Eden by public transport there is a vacuum in terms of real proposals, except perhaps for the notion of park and ride from the M6.

And the mid-morning Morecambe - Liverpool train was a nightmare more than once when it was a single 153.........

 

[dunc695]

And the mid-morning Morecambe - Liverpool train was a nightmare more than once when it was a single 153.........

I recall using the Morecambe - Liverpool Lime Street service on many occasions when headed to Merseyside for the day. If I'm right it usually set off around 10.57 with a lunchtime arrival at Lime St but it was semi-fast beyond Preston.

I also recall catching a Lime St - Millom coming back often formed of a single 142 Pacer!

I have proposed a Morecambe to Manchester or Liverpool service, in a similar thread on this subject (Morecambe and the Eden project).

As has been noted before, Morecambe did have a Liverpool service until the West Coast route Modernisation came along. It would benefit Morecambe to have through trains beyond Lancaster.

It would also draw more people to use the train to get to the Eden project than with the currently hap-hazard connections or non-connections at Lancaster (noting that the big urban centres are likely to provide the Eden project's visitor numbers). Despite much hot air about attracting people to Eden by public transport there is a vacuum in terms of real proposals, except perhaps for the notion of park and ride from the M6.

I wish Morecambe did have a direct train again to Liverpool or beyond, even if it was one out and back service.

 

[HSTEd]

Why was the morecambe branch configured as two single tracks?
Was it an attempt to avoid any signalling equipment anywhere except at the entrance to the branch, where it could presumably be controlled by a single signal box?

Is this layout really optimal now the whole installation is controlled from Preston regardless?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Why was the morecambe branch configured as two single tracks?
Was it an attempt to avoid any signalling equipment anywhere except at the entrance to the branch, where it could presumably be controlled by a single signal box?

I believe so, yes.

Is this layout really optimal now the whole installation is controlled from Preston regardless?

Other than the people of Bare Lane who might have to remember which platform each train uses, I can't see a massive problem with it. You're not going to have more than two trains on the branch at any one time, even if you up to 2tph.

 

[zwk500]

Why was the morecambe branch configured as two single tracks?
Was it an attempt to avoid any signalling equipment anywhere except at the entrance to the branch, where it could presumably be controlled by a single signal box?

Is this layout really optimal now the whole installation is controlled from Preston regardless?

I believe so, yes.

Other than the people of Bare Lane who might have to remember which platform each train uses, I can't see a massive problem with it. You're not going to have more than two trains on the branch at any one time, even if you up to 2tph.

I believe it also helps avoid problems if a train is moving on the Heysham branch, as you can work in/out of P1 regardless.

If you were doing it nowadays you'd probably put Morecambe station as a single lead and use the branch as a long loop. Whether it really needs changing is another question.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I believe it also helps avoid problems if a train is moving on the Heysham branch, as you can work in/out of P1 regardless.

If you were doing it nowadays you'd probably put Morecambe station as a single lead and use the branch as a long loop. Whether it really needs changing is another question.

I wouldn't say it needs changing for any expected level of service, though if it's resignalled they may of course choose to change it.

 

[zwk500]

I wouldn't say it needs changing for any expected level of service, though if it's resignalled they may of course choose to change it.

It depends what the plans (and regulations) are for the Heysham branch - it may be desirable to abolish the ground frame, at least for passenger movements, especially as it's now signalled remotely anyway. Although I'd suggest that a half-hourly can be made to work without touching the infrastructure.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It depends what the plans (and regulations) are for the Heysham branch - it may be desirable to abolish the ground frame, at least for passenger movements, especially as it's now signalled remotely anyway. Although I'd suggest that a half-hourly can be made to work without touching the infrastructure.

Run time is about 10 minutes, which does mean 2 units for half hourly, but you'd be able to do it passing on the WCML like Ormskirk I expect.

 

[zwk500]

Run time is about 10 minutes, which does mean 2 units for half hourly, but you'd be able to do it passing on the WCML like Ormskirk I expect.

Or continue to utilise the 2 separate lines.

As far as I can see it's 3' Lancaster-Morecambe Sth Jn, 3 mins Morecambe Sth Jn-Bare Lane, and 3.5' from Bare Lane to Morecambe (with 30 seconds dwell at Bare Lane on top).
You'd probably need to depart after the Manchester-Windermere at xx.03 (also catches the xx.59 down avanti connection). The arrival back at Lancaster connects into the xx.40 Up Avanti, although the next Manchester is xx.51

Lancaster	xx.07	xx.37
Morecambe S Jn	xx.10	xx.40
Bare Lane	xx.13-xx.13H	xx.43-xx.43H
Morecambe (arr)	xx.17	xx.47
Morecambe (dep)	xx.22	xx.52
Bare Lane	xx.25H-xx.26	xx.55H-xx.56
Morecambe S Jn	xx.29	xx.59
Lancaster (arr)	xx.32	x+1.02

Whether consistent 5-minute turnrounds are considered robust for a full day I don't know. But you could also expect a 1' saving from electric stock, even battery-electric. AFAICT these times work on the WCML section*, although the Leeds-Morecambe would need retiming to fit the pattern.

*Have only looked at today's WTT services on RTT c.1300-1500.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Or continue to utilise the 2 separate lines.

Or that

 

[MarkyT]

The method of working is OTNS (one train no staff) on both lines from Bare Lane. That means no need for any train detection, signals or other equipment beyond the up distants on each branch, apart from the mechanical ground frame and its key release instrument arrangements and some telephones. The key, once withdrawn from the release instrument, is used to unlock the ground frame, move the points, then relock in the new position. The key is retained by the crew of trains going through to Heysham.

 

[30907]

Whether consistent 5-minute turnrounds are considered robust for a full day I don't know. But you could also expect a 1' saving from electric stock, even battery-electric. AFAICT these times work on the WCML section*, although the Leeds-Morecambe would need retiming to fit the pattern.

Unfortunately, passing South Jn at xx59 clasheswih the down Avanti

Fairly sure you could get a half-hourly path, and build in some resilience by using the Bentham line units, much as now, to work one round trip per 2 hours.

 

[zwk500]

Unfortunately, passing South Jn at xx59 clasheswih the down Avanti

If the avanti is departing Lancaster at xx.59, is that not clear? I'd have been more worried about arriving into 1/2 3 minutes behind the xx.59 departure from 3.

Fairly sure you could get a half-hourly path, and build in some resilience by using the Bentham line units, much as now, to work one round trip per 2 hours.

Quite possible, although the current Bentham line paths come into Lancaster first don't they?

 

[30907]

If the avanti is departing Lancaster at xx.59, is that not clear?

It's typically xx57.

Quite possible, although the current Bentham line paths come into Lancaster first don't they?

Yes, I was meaning them to run via Lancaster as now and replace 1 in 4 of the shuttles.

 

[zwk500]

It's typically xx57.

Ah, still not bad for envelope analysis. Now if I had a copy of ATTUne....

 

[M&NEJ]

For this to work we need a bi-directional line on the "down" side, from Carnforth South junction, via Morecambe South Jc and over Carlisle Bridge into Lancaster

When you add in the freights to the existing passenger service, Carlisle Bridge is a "little Castlefield" in terms of congestion.

 

[zwk500]

For this to work we need a bi-directional line on the "down" side, from Carnforth South junction, via Morecambe South Jc and over Carlisle Bridge into Lancaster

Would be lovely

When you add in the freights to the existing passenger service, Carlisle Bridge is a "little Castlefield" in terms of cocongestion.

This is perhaps stretching it.

 

[M&NEJ]

Would be lovely

This is perhaps stretching it.

Apologies for the typo in my original post ( "cocongestion" )!

I don't believe it's stretching it at all (I did say *little* Castlefield). When Virgin introduced the so-called Very High Frequency timetable after the West Coast route modernisation, Morecambe had to lose a peak-time commuter service into Lancaster. I would fully support your sketch for a half-hourly Morecambe service but the conflicts show that there's little to no room for service increase over Carlisle Bridge.

Not a criticism at all, because I'd love to see a half-hourly Morecambe service; but your xx:007 departure from Lancaster would have the xx:07 / xx:08 Birmingham - Scotland treading on its heels (because of the lack of overlap at Lancaster North junction). The return trip would, at xx:29 at Morecambe South Jc be hard on the heels of an up Trans-Pennine but just workable; the xx:37 departure from Lancaster would presumably be constrained to depart from platforms 1 or 2 to avoid a conflict with the arriving, up Avanti at xx:38; and as said above, the return at xx:59 (Morecambe South Jc) would be just after the down London Avanti and also the up Birmingham Avanti have passed (just workable).

As it is, the recent addition of a Bentham line service to bring commuters into Lancaster in the morning peak, 2H03 Bradford FS to Carnforth has to terminate at Carnforth; with a connection into Lancaster on a Barrow - Manchester service. It then follows as empty stock after 9 o'clock!

If you're foolish enough like me, to follow Real Time Trains all day you'll no doubt see the regular pattern of, e.g. "up" services on time all the way from Scotland but then picking up a few minutes' delay around Morecambe South Junction.

In the rail user groups and Community Rail partnerships locally, it is recognised that Carlisle Bridge is congested; it's just Network Rail who don't admit it!