• Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

MTU engines and hydrotreated vegetable oil

Status
Not open for further replies.

anamyd

Established Member
Joined
17 Aug 2018
Messages
3,038
I found this press release from MTU / Rolls-Royce that says they've been trialling the use of hydrotreated vegetable oil to fuel their engines (that are used in some trains on the British railway network), that it reduces CO2 emissions by up to 90% along with other emissions reductions, and that existing engines will require easy or no conversion.


The applicable engines are:
  • Series 1600s (used in 800s, 802s, 805s and 810s, and also as the "emergency"/depot engine in 801s)
  • Series 1800s (used in 195s, 196s, 197s, 172s and HybridFLEX)
  • Series 4000s (used in the MTU re-engined 43 / HST power cars)
Rolls-Royce Power Systems said: ...Hydrotreated Vegetable Oil (HVO or renewable diesel), which is already commercially available today, reduces CO2 emissions by up to 90 percent. If the fuels are produced with the help of renewable energy and green hydrogen – through what is termed a Power-to-X process – existing rail vehicles can be operated in a completely CO2-neutral manner. The mtu Series 1800 engines which are used in mtu PowerPacks, as well as Series 1300 and 1500 for locomotives and multi-purpose vehicles, are already approved for use with synthetic fuels such as HVO. Series 1600 and versions of Series 4000 engines will follow in the near future. ...Jürgen Blassmann, Director Rail Business at Rolls-Royce business unit Power Systems, said: “HVO allows our customers to significantly reduce their greenhouse gas emissions with existing vehicles and engines and to make an important contribution to climate protection today. Emissions of soot and nitrogen oxide are also significantly reduced – without having to make any changes to the drive system or infrastructure. No significant changes in performance were observed and availability and service life of our engines remain unchanged, which is highly attractive for our customers.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Gloster

Established Member
Joined
4 Sep 2020
Messages
10,752
Location
Up the creek
The one problem with all these wonder fuels is that, if we turn much of our agricultural land over to producing them, what do we eat? Or will they push the price of food up even further? (This presumes that I have understood how they are produced, which is by no means certain (O-Level Chemistry Grade U, 1976)).
 

tomuk

Established Member
Joined
15 May 2010
Messages
2,009
Although that is a concern HVO can be made from waste oils including tallow i.e. animal fat and can also be produced from algae via the same or allied methods. There does seem to be a boom in it at the moment due to the changes in 'red' diesel excise duty for off road plant.
 

haggishunter

Member
Joined
25 Aug 2016
Messages
349
I've had a discussion about MTU 4000 engines from a marine use perspective with a friend who works in the industry, regarding an MTU 4000 hydrogen gas turbine becoming available next year.

Hydrogen HSTs anyone?
 

hwl

Established Member
Joined
5 Feb 2012
Messages
7,642
I found this press release from MTU / Rolls-Royce that says they've been trialling the use of hydrotreated vegetable oil to fuel their engines (that are used in some trains on the British railway network), that it reduces CO2 emissions by up to 90% along with other emissions reductions, and that existing engines will require easy or no conversion.


The applicable engines are:
  • Series 1600s (used in 800s, 802s, 805s and 810s, and also as the "emergency"/depot engine in 801s)
  • Series 1800s (used in 195s, 196s, 197s, 172s and HybridFLEX)
  • Series 4000s (used in the MTU re-engined 43 / HST power cars)
The ~90% figure is only true if a certain provision in the "2009" carbon accountancy rules is used namely waste feedstocks are regarded as Zero Carbon (due to being waste and the carbon already accounted for elsewhere) in an effort to incentivise waste re-use. So the carbon saving is waste feedstock (100%) - reprocessing and distribution carbon costs (~10%) = ~90%. There will also be slight changes in fuel consumption but this is complex due to difference in fuel densities and energy content.

In reality the quantity of CO2 coming out of the exhaust is similar to diesel.

This carbon accountancy rule is incompatible with "net zero" accountancy requirements as CO2 is still CO2 irrespective of origin, hence this may not be a long term solution.

A reasonable level of Hydrotreatment is also done on diesel to clean it up and help it combust better (e.g. remove Sulphur (reducing SO2) and PAH (reducing PM and indirectly NOx)) and increased levels of hydrotreatment on diesel (e.g. as Sweden mandates for polluted areas) reduces air quality pollutants.

Non hydrotreated diesel is also incompatible with modern emission reduction technologies (e.g. SCR with Ad-blue to reduce NOx)

The big problems with Hydrotreatments for diesel or HVO is that they typically use methane as a hydrogen source, the source of which was often cheap Russian gas.

Most of the HVO in Europe is processed in Finland / Netherlands and utilised what was cheap Russian gas.

There are also been some issues with diesel hydrotreatment, availability and pricing in that before February about 9% of UK Diesel came from Russia having been hydrotreated there. (The tankers returned in the other direction with Jet A-1 produced in GB refineries to Russia).

Most other European countries were /are much more reliant on diesel hydrotreated in Russia or using cheap Russian natural gas than the UK.

I've had a discussion about MTU 4000 engines from a marine use perspective with a friend who works in the industry, regarding an MTU 4000 hydrogen gas turbine becoming available next year.

Hydrogen HSTs anyone?
A 4000 running on hydrogen is still a conventional internal combustion engine and in reality a modification for their existing CNG /LNG 4000 but with modification to turbos, fuel and injection systems (and no DPF).
 

Starmill

Veteran Member
Joined
18 May 2012
Messages
25,060
Location
Bolton
These things are potentially useful as transition solutions but long term they're no true decarbonisation solution.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top