Multiple trains one after the other cancelled due to 'staff shortages'

[Horizon22]

Disagree. Cut & paste diagrams are often thrown together in minutes. All trains are originally diagrammed - it's just which one they dump that causes the problem.

Sort of; if the number of diagrams does not equal the rostered staff on duty then they won't be. But I'll take your point that "originally diagrammed". It might just be that nobody is available for "Sheffield 1000" diagram.

Diagrams are then left uncovered by rostering, although on the day resources teams might shift people so the "least worst" crew diagram gets cancelled.

 

[Meole]

I have no idea what you mean by this.

A pool of workers who are available on call when required, standard practice for many transport companies, normally paid an on call rate.

 

[Horizon22]

A pool of workers who are available on call when required, standard practice for many transport companies, normally paid an on call rate.

That sounds like overtime for me. Otherwise this would be this supposed the staff member would have to a) get the call, b) drop what they are doing, c) get to their depot (not site), d) sign on, e) be in position for the service.

Bare in mind this might all take an hour minimum, by which point the affected service has come and gone.

If the staff can't be procured for normal service, what makes you think they'd want to be on call? Train crew have spare, cover and standby shifts, and no doubt these were already well exhausted before cancellations. As for trying to get the DfT to agree to an "on-call" rate (let alone the other problems) for train crew, that's wishful thinking!

 

[dk1]

A pool of workers who are available on call when required, standard practice for many transport companies, normally paid an on call rate.

TOCs have spare on duty drivers but they are not on call and are limited by the availability hours and strictly controlled by local agreements. The nearest you’d get to that are drivers who are rest day off and available.

 

[Craig1122]

Signal boxes are rare these days surely.
Anyway no reason the TOC can't call in a sub from the extra board.

This appears to be referring to signalers not drivers. Which are of course not employed by the TOC...

In any case if that was the reason then the avenue of bringing in any available staff on over time will already have been exhausted.

 

[Lurcheroo]

That sounds like overtime for me. Otherwise this would be this supposed the staff member would have to a) get the call, b) drop what they are doing, c) get to their depot (not site), d) sign on, e) be in position for the service.

Bare in mind this might all take an hour minimum, by which point the affected service has come and gone.

If the staff can't be procured for normal service, what makes you think they'd want to be on call? Train crew have spare, cover and standby shifts, and no doubt these were already well exhausted before cancellations. As for trying to get the DfT to agree to an "on-call" rate (let alone the other problems) for train crew, that's wishful thinking!

I’ll just add, that most TOC’s (if not all) specify you must live within 1 hour of your depot. I live about 45 minutes no traffic, 55-60 minutes with bad traffic so it would be over an hour before I could be ready to do anything at my depot. Then if I’m needed to start from somewhere other than my depot there’s an hour and a half’s train travel one way or 2 and a half hours the other way.

I think Meole is either thinking of the ‘spare’ pool (which Would already have been exhausted) or they misunderstand. I know some airlines have pilots essentially ‘spare at home’ that they can call on if needed.

 

[Horizon22]

I know some airlines have pilots essentially ‘spare at home’ that they can call on if needed.

This did occur for a short period during Covid for train crew, but was almost never used due to the issues listed above where they could never be practically useful.

 

[Lurcheroo]

This did occur for a short period during Covid for train crew, but was almost never used due to the issues listed above where they could never be practically useful.

It was before my time but My father told me about it haha! He’s near to me so never got used, drivers who were only 5-10 mins away would sometimes get used even if it was just for a shed move.

 

[chris_in_salop]

And where do you find a replacement driver that doesn't need 12 months or however long to be trained, is fully route trained (or who is able to drop everything and potentially move across the country) to replace the sacked driver instantly to prevent a shortage later that day or the next day or the day after that etc etc...

This is all internal operational trivia.

What other industry responds to its customers in this manner?

 

[Lurcheroo]

This is all internal operational trivia.

What other industry responds to its customers in this manner?

I don’t understand what you mean sorry

It seems that the person you were replying to was trying to get the point that, if there is a shortage on that day then there is no quick fix.
The shortage is very likely a longer standing understaffing issue.

 

[RunRepeat]

We should fire people who've chosen not to be train drivers from their actual jobs, then they can be train drivers instead. Shortage solved!

For those sitting in driver talent pools waiting for a call from a TOC, that idea is not entirely without merit!

 

[riceuten]

Yesterday when travelling from Leamington to Oakham at 6pm in the evening, multiple trains on this route got cancelled 'due to staff shortages'. I have never seen such a pathetic excuse for such incredible disruption on this network.

I suspect you are unaware of just how much the existing railway runs on goodwill and ‘rest day working’. Essentially, people working on their days off, particularly at the weekend. A modern, well-funded rail system would have sufficient drivers to operate without rest day working, but training more drivers costs money, and it is cheaper to pay overtime than the latter.

I do not want to offend anyone, but if a train cannot run because of a staff shortage and that staff member is not off sick or with other issues, that staff member should be fired on the spot.

I take it you are not familiar with the modern practices of industrial relations? ‘Firing people on the spot’ is generally what our US comrades do, safe in the knowledge that unions will probably not intervene so, and that such things are generally legal there and not here. What do you think the driver is doing at the depot? Refusing to drive a train?

I had to fork out a huge amount of money yesterday to go an alternative route.

As do many people in times of industrial strife. It behaves the TOC to settle with the drivers, but remember - more than once - the government has intervened with a TOC and abrogated a deal that would have stopped the industrial action

PS I am amazed and somewhat heartened that we do not appear to have gone down the ‘it’s only pushing a button’ and ‘£60k pa - it’s absolutely DISGUSTING’ rabbit hole

 

[al78]

That reminds me, years ago one of our services was cancelled because the drivers seat got jammed in the highest position and the driver's feet couldn't reach the DSD pedal. The train was cancelled due to "short staff with no taller staff available to step up".

Strap a brick to the bottom of his shoe?

I suspect you are unaware of just how much the existing railway runs on goodwill and ‘rest day working’. Essentially, people working on their days off, particularly at the weekend. A modern, well-funded rail system would have sufficient drivers to operate without rest day working, but training more drivers costs money, and it is cheaper to pay overtime than the latter minimise costs by externalising costs and consequences onto the end users.

FTFY.

I take it you are not familiar with the modern practices of industrial relations? ‘Firing people on the spot’ is generally what our US comrades do, safe in the knowledge that unions will probably not intervene so, and that such things are generally legal there and not here. What do you think the driver is doing at the depot? Refusing to drive a train?

My guess is the OP made an automatic assumption that staff shortages are caused by the staff either not turning up due to their poor timekeeping (e.g. they didn't get out of bed early enough) or pulling a sickie.

 

[riceuten]

My guess is the OP made an automatic assumption that staff shortages are caused by the staff either not turning up due to their poor timekeeping (e.g. they didn't get out of bed early enough) or pulling a sickie.

To be fair, that generally tends to be the tabloid (and tabloid readers’) assumption that it’s ’lazy train drivers can’t be bothered going to work’.

 

[66701GBRF]

I take it you are not familiar with the modern practices of industrial relations? ‘Firing people on the spot’ is generally what our US comrades do, safe in the knowledge that unions will probably not intervene so, and that such things are generally legal there and not here.

This. What the "sack the lot of them" brigade fail to realise is that if you allow that to happen what's to stop that happening in their own industry. A race to the bottom like USA standards is not good for anyone.

 

[dk1]

This. What the "sack the lot of them" brigade fail to realise is that if you allow that to happen what's to stop that happening in their own industry. A race to the bottom like USA standards is not good for anyone.

We see it all the time on forums such as this and on social media in general. Many seem to be resigned to the idea rock bottom terms & conditions within their employment and see no reason why anyone else should enjoy them and the quality of working life that comes with them.

 

[CaptainHaddock]

Whilst the OP's suggestion is illogical, he's perfectly entitled to express his frustration at the way TOCs cancel services at extremely short notice when they must have known they would not have enough staff hours or even days in advance.

If you're cancelling so many trains due to staff shortages, the layman would surely suggest two obvious solutions; run less trains or employ more staff.

 

[43066]

Whilst the OP's suggestion is illogical, he's perfectly entitled to express his frustration at the way TOCs cancel services at extremely short notice when they must have known they would not have enough staff hours or even days in advance.

If you're cancelling so many trains due to staff shortages, the layman would surely suggest two obvious solutions; run less trains or employ more staff.

It’s not really appropriate to express it by lashing out at the staff, though. It’s akin to saying: “I can’t get a doctor’s appointment, so sack the doctors!”.

 

[riceuten]

Whilst the OP's suggestion is illogical, he's perfectly entitled to express his frustration at the way TOCs cancel services at extremely short notice when they must have known they would not have enough staff hours or even days in advance.

He’s perfectly entitled to be annoyed, for sure, but needs to point his ire at the people responsible.

If you're cancelling so many trains due to staff shortages, the layman would surely suggest two obvious solutions; run less trains or employ more staff.

But the latter costs money. And, in effect they ARE running less trains.

The problem being, of course, that there are little or no consequences to TOCs (or specifically, TOC management) for not running trains.

 

[Falcon1200]

What other industry responds to its customers in this manner?

For example, the bus operator who cancelled two services, in a row, which I planned to use last week.

If you're cancelling so many trains due to staff shortages, the layman would surely suggest two obvious solutions; run less trains or employ more staff.

Do we actually know why two consecutive trains were cancelled? It might have been one due to insufficient Driver complement to run the service, which absolutely should be addressed, then another being the result of an unplanned and unforeseen incident, such as sickness call-off.

 

[Wolfie]

That reminds me, years ago one of our services was cancelled because the drivers seat got jammed in the highest position and the driver's feet couldn't reach the DSD pedal. The train was cancelled due to "short staff with no taller staff available to step up".

Perhaps said driver needed some 70s-style extreme platform shoes lol.... They seem to be coming back into fashion....

 

[The Puddock]

[Deleted by me because on reflection it was off topic and had nothing to do with the discussion]

 

[dk1]

[Deleted by me because on reflection it was off topic and had nothing to do with the discussion]

I’m intrigued now lol

It’s like when somebody unsends you something on messenger

 

[infobleep]

I’m not really sure how else you can dress it up. It is what it is, a shortage of staff.

If you know it is due to staff not wishing to work overtime I guess one could say that.

When there is what most call an over time ban, I always refer to it as staff not wishing to work overtime.

After all overtime is optional. It's called overtime for a reason.

 

[riceuten]

Indeed, as I recall, one of the sticking points of the previous disputes was a proposal of an element of compulsory overtime.

Which, when you think of it, is utterly bonkers.

 

[Efini92]

Right, so if a driver is just on their booked annual leave they should be fired on the spot?

Only if Alan sugar is available to say “you’re fired”

 

[bramling]

It was 2 consecutive trains cancelled (18.40 and 19.40) due to train crew shortage, not signalling staff.

Worth remembering that one cancellation can have a surprisingly wide consequential effect.

So train 1 is cancelled between A and B due to no driver. But there’s nowhere to stable the train at A, so on its previous trip it has had to go away early. Meanwhile there’s now a driver at B but no train, and that driver needs to get to A to pick up another train, but is now stuck at B. And so on.

A relatively small number of uncovered duties can have a significant effect. Control will do their best to manage all this, but can’t work miracles.

 

[Class83]

At my TOC driver, conductor & catering training and recruitment has never stopped. Train operators would not get Rest Day Working agreements from ASLEF if driver vacancies weren't filled.

Is your TOC fully staffed such that other than to cover for sickness the normal timetable can be operated by the staff employed, or are significant numbers or drivers and other staff resigning to take roles outside the railway causing the need for recruitment to replace them? The railway always seemed quite a long term career, so if people stay on average 20 years, you would only expect to need 5% recruitment per year, and I got the impression advertised jobs were significantly oversubscribed?

The original post seems to be missing the point slightly, but employing enough staff to operate the timetabled service (without recourse to overtime) having an appropriate sickness management process in place should mean that staff shortages are not a daily occurrence. But it's a management issue, not attributable to any individual member of staff, unless they had failed to turn up for work with no excuse.

 

[johntea]

I am confused as to why many TransPennine Express services seem to be cancelled the past couple of days with the reason being ‘industrial action’ when their industrial action is Thursday

 

[Krokodil]

I am confused as to why many TransPennine Express services seem to be cancelled the past couple of days with the reason being ‘industrial action’ when their industrial action is Thursday

Overtime ban?