My crazy motorway-bus way plan

[Jozhua]

This is totally on the crazy end of speculative, but I've always wondered why you couldn't lay down something like a guided busway down the middle of a motorway, with interchanges, etc around the junctions.

These sections could be protected by barriers and even have different speed limits to the rest of the road, maybe travelling of speeds up to 80/90mph (if current guideway systems could safely allow).

This would make them less vulnerable to traffic, accidents and potentially make the ride smoother, perhaps making the coach a more attractive form of transport. I could see this as quite useful for areas with a decent motorway/dual carriageway network but limited rail. Could be useful for existing coach companies and perhaps provide a renaissance for coach travel if it makes trips faster and more reliable. Could also provide better connectivity between close together cities that already utilise express bus routes.

 

[JonathanH]

This is totally on the crazy end of speculative, but I've always wondered why you couldn't lay down something like a guided busway down the middle of a motorway, with interchanges, etc around the junctions.

These sections could be protected by barriers and even have different speed limits to the rest of the road, maybe travelling of speeds up to 80/90mph (if current guideway systems could safely allow).

This would make them less vulnerable to traffic, accidents and potentially make the ride smoother, perhaps making the coach a more attractive form of transport. I could see this as quite useful for areas with a decent motorway/dual carriageway network but limited rail. Could be useful for existing coach companies and perhaps provide a renaissance for coach travel if it makes trips faster and more reliable. Could also provide better connectivity between close together cities that already utilise express bus routes.

Frankly pointless.

Coaches can already travel at 62mph between major city centres but they will only ever be able to carry up to about 70 people. It is better to transport people between cities by trains with multiple carriages.

There isn't really sufficient space to construct bus lanes down the middle of motorways either as the recent changes to introduce smart motorways and other changes have already taken the central reservation down to the safe space. The reservations often include bridge supports.

Coach users are unlikely to want to pay the infrastructure cost of developing these lanes.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There's not much point in doing that as it's easier just to drive them on the motorway normally. The concept of "Coachways" connected by motorway coaches was mooted seriously at one point, and there are a few of them e.g. MK and High Wycombe, but it didn't really take off.

 

[satters]

There is something akin to that beside the motorway in Auckland New Zealand

 

[JonathanH]

There is something akin to that beside the motorway in Auckland New Zealand

Yes, there is. The Auckland Northern Busway exists because there is no suburban railway route from the Northern suburbs into the centre.

You could argue that Ferrytoll / the old Forth Road Bridge does something very similar as well for people who live in Fife and need to get to Edinburgh.

However, both are about connecting dormitory towns with a major city centre (and other workplaces) rather than connecting cities together over longer distances which I think was the OP's proposal.

Having segregated bus routes at pinch points on routes into major cities has its merits - having them on stretches of motorway typically expected to flow freely and expecting the coaches to achieve 80 or 90 mph is a different matter.

 

[PeterC]

There's not much point in doing that as it's easier just to drive them on the motorway normally. The concept of "Coachways" connected by motorway coaches was mooted seriously at one point, and there are a few of them e.g. MK and High Wycombe, but it didn't really take off.

Coachways are just coaches stopping at park and ride car parks. Not all use the term. Thornhill on the A40 is very successful with lots of traffic for the Oxford Tube and Airline a well as buses to central Oxford and the main hospitals. (That is on pre COVID19 traffic of course)

MK seemed moderately popular when I used it as a P&R for the X5. National Express seems to be cutting back the Wycombe calls though.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Coachways are just coaches stopping at park and ride car parks

A bit more to it than that. MK Coachway was that but is now a very large and quite impressive dedicated coach station.

 

[Dr Hoo]

Could the OP clarify how having high-speed coaches driving 'on sight' at 90mph on a guided corridor (with no scope to deviate onto another lane) would make them "less vulnerable to accidents" if a coach stopped for some reason?

 

[MotCO]

There is (was?) a bus lane on the M4 heading into London, but the complaint was that it was not used that much (as compared to non-coach traffic). There was a problem when the coach lane merged into the main motorway before the elevated section.

 

[JonathanH]

Could the OP clarify how having high-speed coaches driving 'on sight' at 90mph on a guided corridor (with no scope to deviate onto another lane) would make them "less vulnerable to accidents" if a coach stopped for some reason?

I'm guessing that you could devise some sort of autonomous moving block signalling to keep the vehicles apart (although a breakdown would obviously not be very helpful with no way to pass it).

It would all add to the cost of course (and makes it sound even more like something The Railway Inspectorate would want authority over).

 

[61653 HTAFC]

The German city of Essen has a guided busway which runs along the central reservation of an autobahn passing through the city. However this is used for local city buses rather than long-distance coaches, and some sections are shared with trams and trolleybuses besides diesel buses.

The problem with coaches only serving Motorway junctions would be passengers getting from there to the town or city nearby: usually this means local buses... and as motorways often form boundaries between local authorities, bus operators aren't always willing to serve the extremities of a town.

 

[si404]

There is (was?) a bus lane on the M4 heading into London, but the complaint was that it was not used that much (as compared to non-coach traffic). There was a problem when the coach lane merged into the main motorway before the elevated section.

The bus lane wasn't about buses, but an excellent idea to deal with the notorious 3-lanes-into-2 bottleneck created by the elevated section: see here for a decent explanation of the problem and how the solution was good.

The idea was to move the lane drop to the junction before and smooth the flow. But, instead of hatching a lane out / double width hard shoulder, they made it a bus lane, allowing the few coaches (and rather more taxis) that approach London from Heathrow in the morning peak gain some added benefit while not negating the point of the scheme - smoothing the traffic and making journey times more reliable. The scheme for a few years met those aims, especially after some tweaks.

The PR problem was that the idea behind why it was there was all lost in the narrative as it got heralded/demonised due to its being a bus lane, focusing on that aspect and ignoring that it wasn't really about buses but about bottlenecks. The bus lane was meant to be pretty empty - because if it had anymore than a minor amount of traffic, you've stopped it fulfilling its purpose of narrowing the M4 to two lanes at a more logical point (where a slip road heads off) than where the physical constraint kicks in. According to TfL, it took 7% of the traffic, but 21% of the people (so not pulling its people-moving weight as a third of the lanes, but a lot better than if it was hatching).

However it hit a snag after nearly a decades' traffic growth and minor issues started snowballing.

• by easing the flow, traffic wasn't being gated as much on approach to the Chiswick Roundabout/A4 east of there and so the end of the motorway saw larger queues as traffic was reaching the back of that queue faster (this is why smart motorways say "queue caution" and have you drive at 50mph while not hitting a queue - they are getting it to clear before you get there)
• by removing a lane, there was 3 lane-miles less stacking space for that queue caused by the end of the motorway to fill and that queue started reaching back to J3
• by moving the 3-into-2 bottleneck west by three miles, while making it much less of queue than the previous ones by having it less of a bottleneck, the queues created by it had moved west 3 miles
• when those bits of congestion got more a mile west of J3, then things really escalated - they were now west of the Heathrow junction, and caused that bit of motorway to go from 'jam waiting to happen' to 'jam'.
• which meant that the jam quickly got outside the M25 and jammed up that road that was also near tipping point anyway.

When this was understood by the powers that be about 2 years after becoming an issue, they simply removed the bus lane restrictions. There's still the 3-into-2 at Junction 3 (via hatching) to keep the 3-into-2 bottleneck there, but there's now the stacking space and room for eastbound traffic joining to merge east of the junction should London be bad, so that that we don't end up with a queue created at J3 or east of there getting long enough to throw a spanner in the works of the motorway west of J4 and have things escalate like they used to.

The original M4 bus lane on the Heathrow spur is still there and working well.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The problem with coaches only serving Motorway junctions would be passengers getting from there to the town or city nearby: usually this means local buses... and as motorways often form boundaries between local authorities, bus operators aren't always willing to serve the extremities of a town.

With regard to MK Coachway it is reasonably well served by bus, you've got the X5 every half hour plus local services. However the vast majority of people go to/from there either by car or taxi, and parking is free. A friend often parks there and takes NatEx to Luton Airport, for example.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

With regard to MK Coachway it is reasonably well served by bus, you've got the X5 every half hour plus local services. However the vast majority of people go to/from there either by car or taxi, and parking is free. A friend often parks there and takes NatEx to Luton Airport, for example.

Though there's probably a reason that MK Coachway hasn't been replicated almost anywhere. The closest comparison I'm aware of is Meadowhall Interchange, where Megabus call rather than heading into the city centre like National Express do.

 

[si404]

The German city of Essen has a guided busway which runs along the central reservation of an autobahn passing through the city.

Which is a big problem with the UK having this - as you point out, our motorways tend to be on the edge of town. They are not passing through it, but by it (with a few exceptions).

as motorways often form boundaries between local authorities

Not normally they don't. There's a few examples (eg the Greater London/Surrey/Berkshire/Buckinghamshire realignment in the early 90s that snapped everything more logically to the human geography that ignored the county boundaries that it kept on crossing), but not huge numbers.

---

Also not mentioned in this thread is the M40 J6 stops made by the Oxford-London/Airports coach services. I don't know why they started turning off to make a quick stop in the middle of nowhere, but they had to widen the road near the junction to provide off-road parking (and I doubt the local bus stops there were originally as the buses stop in Lewknor village itself) such is the relative popularity of it.

 

[PeterC]

Which is a big problem with the UK having this - as you point out, our motorways tend to be on the edge of town. They are not passing through it, but by it (with a few exceptions).
Not normally they don't. There's a few examples (eg the Greater London/Surrey/Berkshire/Buckinghamshire realignment in the early 90s that snapped everything more logically to the human geography that ignored the county boundaries that it kept on crossing), but not huge numbers.

---

Also not mentioned in this thread is the M40 J6 stops made by the Oxford-London/Airports coach services. I don't know why they started turning off to make a quick stop in the middle of nowhere, but they had to widen the road near the junction to provide off-road parking (and I doubt the local bus stops there were originally as the buses stop in Lewknor village itself) such is the relative popularity of it.

I believe that the Oxford Tube is technically a "local" service as far as Lewknor.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I believe that the Oxford Tube is technically a "local" service as far as Lewknor.

I have a feeling that the Lewknor stop only even exists to allow it to be registered as one, though it has turned out to be popular. Very similar to the stops at Kingston (MK) and just off the M1 at Luton on the 99 which exist solely for that purpose but are actually quite busy at some times of day because they carry commuters to/from the warehouses in MK.

 

[Hadders]

The bus lane wasn't about buses, but an excellent idea to deal with the notorious 3-lanes-into-2 bottleneck created by the elevated section: see here for a decent explanation of the problem and how the solution was good.

The idea was to move the lane drop to the junction before and smooth the flow. But, instead of hatching a lane out / double width hard shoulder, they made it a bus lane, allowing the few coaches (and rather more taxis) that approach London from Heathrow in the morning peak gain some added benefit while not negating the point of the scheme - smoothing the traffic and making journey times more reliable. The scheme for a few years met those aims, especially after some tweaks.

The PR problem was that the idea behind why it was there was all lost in the narrative as it got heralded/demonised due to its being a bus lane, focusing on that aspect and ignoring that it wasn't really about buses but about bottlenecks. The bus lane was meant to be pretty empty - because if it had anymore than a minor amount of traffic, you've stopped it fulfilling its purpose of narrowing the M4 to two lanes at a more logical point (where a slip road heads off) than where the physical constraint kicks in. According to TfL, it took 7% of the traffic, but 21% of the people (so not pulling its people-moving weight as a third of the lanes, but a lot better than if it was hatching).

However it hit a snag after nearly a decades' traffic growth and minor issues started snowballing.

• by easing the flow, traffic wasn't being gated as much on approach to the Chiswick Roundabout/A4 east of there and so the end of the motorway saw larger queues as traffic was reaching the back of that queue faster (this is why smart motorways say "queue caution" and have you drive at 50mph while not hitting a queue - they are getting it to clear before you get there)
• by removing a lane, there was 3 lane-miles less stacking space for that queue caused by the end of the motorway to fill and that queue started reaching back to J3
• by moving the 3-into-2 bottleneck west by three miles, while making it much less of queue than the previous ones by having it less of a bottleneck, the queues created by it had moved west 3 miles
• when those bits of congestion got more a mile west of J3, then things really escalated - they were now west of the Heathrow junction, and caused that bit of motorway to go from 'jam waiting to happen' to 'jam'.
• which meant that the jam quickly got outside the M25 and jammed up that road that was also near tipping point anyway.

When this was understood by the powers that be about 2 years after becoming an issue, they simply removed the bus lane restrictions. There's still the 3-into-2 at Junction 3 (via hatching) to keep the 3-into-2 bottleneck there, but there's now the stacking space and room for eastbound traffic joining to merge east of the junction should London be bad, so that that we don't end up with a queue created at J3 or east of there getting long enough to throw a spanner in the works of the motorway west of J4 and have things escalate like they used to.

The original M4 bus lane on the Heathrow spur is still there and working well.

There was also the 'snag' of the negative publicity caused by Tony Blair's motorcade using the bus lane on the way from the airport speeding past stationary cars whose drivers fumed and vowed not to vote Labour again....

 

[Jozhua]

Even more crazy would be to supply overhead power to the vehicles, although I believe you'd need two lines to create a return path due to rubber not conducting electricity super well lol...

Sorry, I keep coming out with more dumb ideas that are taking this closer to a train

I guess the potential benefit is that buses/coaches could use batteries and standard roads for first/last mile and then get overhead power for the long distance sections of their journey. It would be a great way of reducing carbon emissions, if not amazingly economical...

I think the best case I can layout for a fast guided bus/coach way in the UK is the A52 between Derby and Nottingham, including a connection at the new HS2 station. Would probably be a lot cheaper than a new rail connection and could branch off serving loads of smaller neighbourhoods too.

Could the OP clarify how having high-speed coaches driving 'on sight' at 90mph on a guided corridor (with no scope to deviate onto another lane) would make them "less vulnerable to accidents" if a coach stopped for some reason?

Minimum seperations that are in-line with worst case stopping distances. Using chevrons as seen on other sections of motorway to ensure seperation.

Plus, the speed limit would vary depending on the area, lowering at less visable corners/junctions.

Coaches stop quite a lot faster than trains, so I'd presume this would be fine, tbh cars travelling meters from each other at 70mph is incredibly dangerous, especially considering most drivers are not trained to the extent of train/bus drivers or pilots. I'd feel more confident in the coach running in a seperate lane at 90mph than with mixed traffic at 60-70.