My idea for a St Pancras to Glasgow "Thames Clyde Express" style service

[telstarbox]

Did BR ever run anything direct between Corby and Scotland?

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Did BR ever run anything direct between Corby and Scotland?

Specials at Christmas and other Holiday periods , I understand .....but not in recent decades.

 

[70014IronDuke]

Did BR ever run anything direct between Corby and Scotland?

Good question. I don't know pre-1960, but I suspect not on a scheduled basis - partly because on a few days of the year the trains would have been overwhelmed with a tsunami of passengers from Corby.

AFAIK the TC normally ran via Leicester. At times in the early-mid 60s IIRC it stopped at Kettering, obviously for Corby traffic. Later - 68 or 69 time, it stopped at Luton and Corby folk were expected to catch a semi-fast to or from Leicester, and then change.

The Waverley, when it used to run as a separate train, was routed via Manton, but AFAIK did not stop at Corby. (and in any case, the folks there wanted to go to the Glasgow area in the main, not Edinburgh.)

Both overnight sleepers ran via Leicester, I think most years stopping at Wellingboro and Kettering.

So, on a regular basis, I believe the answer is 'no'!

However, I suspect that the furnaces were switched off in the summer for maintenance and to provide a couple of 'holiday weeks', and around those fortnights there would have been specials to Glasgow arranged - probably with a Black 5 to slog its way north with 10-11 carriages in tow.
Up to the late 60s, this was just normal - BR ran specials to accommodate local needs - but I can't remember ever seeing evidence of this

Maybe an expert can contribute more.

 

[RichmondCommu]

However, I suspect that the furnaces were switched off in the summer for maintenance and to provide a couple of 'holiday weeks', and around those fortnights there would have been specials to Glasgow arranged - probably with a Black 5 to slog its way north with 10-11 carriages in tow.
Up to the late 60s, this was just normal - BR ran specials to accommodate local needs - but I can't remember ever seeing evidence of this

Maybe an expert can contribute more.

I really don't mean to be pedantic but would a Jubilee not have been picked for that kind of train? Just asking

 

[Bertie the bus]

It is a genuine idea though... Open access operator could easily present this idea, and could easily get clearance.

Could easily present the idea, could easily get clearance and could easily go belly up in a few months. Some people really don't get Open Access. It needs to make a profit and running through the middle of nowhere where nobody lives, and take 1/2 a day doing it, isn't going to make a profitable service.

 

[70014IronDuke]

I really don't mean to be pedantic but would a Jubilee not have been picked for that kind of train? Just asking

It's not pedantic. I'm sure they would have liked to put a Jubilee on, or a Scot/Patriot. Indeed, I'm sure they did use them at times. But during the July-August holiday period, such motive power was often in short supply, and Black 5s, or Standard 5s were the common stand-by. You need to remember that they used 9Fs and Crabs at times on such trains - and in the 50s I guess compounds too. Indeed, even though the Thames-Clyde itself was diagrammed for a 7P loco, it was often a Jubilee and sometimes even a Class 5.

However, at Leeds I suspect a Jubilee would have been provided for the S&C. IF not, in the 50s they would commonly put on a 2P pilot.

 

[Bantamzen]

Whilst I cannot see a TOC ever taking up a London - Glasgow via the MML and S&C route, when competition on the WCML & ECML is keeping at least some London-Scotland prices down, I still do think there is scope for an extension of the S&C from Carlisle to Glasgow. Its a potential route for Northern's Connect brand (stock availability withstanding of course <cough> 185 <splutter>), and whilst I can't see it being feasible to run south of Leeds into the Midlands as some would like, it could soak up some of the market from West Yorks that currently have to ram onto a XC service for the roundabout run via Edinburgh, or play chance with a connection from York or Newcastle and hoping the wires aren't down again on the ECML. Plus Leeds could act as a mini Connect hub for passengers using other services to connect (see what I did there ) to it.

In fact potentially it could free the XC franchise from ever having to run all the way around to Glasgow, unless of course there is a massive market for people heading south wishing to spend 6 hours getting as far as Birmingham. And for the Glasgow-Newcastle-York market VTEC would be a far more logical operator to cover the gaps that XC would leave (again stock levels withstanding).

All this idea would need would be stock capable of running fast enough along the northern section of the WCML and a few paths per day to accommodate them. This could, by my loose estimation take off 20-30 mins at least from a Leeds-Glasgow run, providing there was no long layover at Carlisle (This would be based on timings of the faster runs along the S&C (e.g. the 09:47 Leeds-Carlisle)).

 

[BigCj34]

Whilst I cannot see a TOC ever taking up a London - Glasgow via the MML and S&C route, when competition on the WCML & ECML is keeping at least some London-Scotland prices down, I still do think there is scope for an extension of the S&C from Carlisle to Glasgow. Its a potential route for Northern's Connect brand (stock availability withstanding of course <cough> 185 <splutter>), and whilst I can't see it being feasible to run south of Leeds into the Midlands as some would like, it could soak up some of the market from West Yorks that currently have to ram onto a XC service for the roundabout run via Edinburgh, or play chance with a connection from York or Newcastle and hoping the wires aren't down again on the ECML. Plus Leeds could act as a mini Connect hub for passengers using other services to connect (see what I did there ) to it.

In fact potentially it could free the XC franchise from ever having to run all the way around to Glasgow, unless of course there is a massive market for people heading south wishing to spend 6 hours getting as far as Birmingham. And for the Glasgow-Newcastle-York market VTEC would be a far more logical operator to cover the gaps that XC would leave (again stock levels withstanding).

All this idea would need would be stock capable of running fast enough along the northern section of the WCML and a few paths per day to accommodate them. This could, by my loose estimation take off 20-30 mins at least from a Leeds-Glasgow run, providing there was no long layover at Carlisle (This would be based on timings of the faster runs along the S&C (e.g. the 09:47 Leeds-Carlisle)).

I do agree with this. The XC diagrams from Glasgow via Edinburgh only need to run to York, any destination anywhere south of there is usually beaten by another itinerary that involves going via the WCML. This could be an opportunity for a service from Glasgow that follows the S&C line to Leeds and runs down the Pennines, as currently getting from Scotland to West/South Yorkshire and the East Midlands can be a convoluted process. While diagrams that go all the way to St Pancras would take longer in comparison to the WCML/ECML routes, and most stations served already having a direct service to London anyway (the ones that don't being Appleby, Settle and Kirby Stephen), a route down to Leicester via Nottingham / Derby could work.

While there are 5 direct weekday services from Glasgow to Leeds via Edinburgh, the quickest route is offered by changing onto the S&C line; a direct service could offer consistent journey times around 3:45 assuming it ran express on the S&C line. This could go onwards to Sheffield and follow the MML via Nottingham / Derby down to Leicester, not only offering a direct service from Glasgow to Sheffield but also more direct services from Leeds and the East Midlands. There are only currently only 2 direct weekday services to Leicester which are in the early morning. There are regular direct services to Nottingham but are slow stoppers, while Leeds to Derby is a lot faster but still runs every hour. As Leeds to Leicester takes around 2 hours, a limited stop direct service could take 1:50, bringing a Glasgow - Leicester service to 5:35. There could even be opportunities for extended diagrams further to non-London destinations, such as Oxford, Reading and Southampton if it proved faster.

Of course, there are factors to be considered such as what demand there is for faster and direct Glasgow (possibly Edinburgh as well)-Yorkshire-East Midlands service, though it does appear Leeds and the East Midlands could do with more direct services, and it wouldn't be incompatible with the purpose of the Crosscountry franchise, even if such a service isn't necessarily under XC. Importantly, there are logistical factors such as available pathways on the WCML north of Carlisle and rolling stock availability.

 

[Condor7]

Could easily present the idea, could easily get clearance and could easily go belly up in a few months. Some people really don't get Open Access. It needs to make a profit and running through the middle of nowhere where nobody lives, and take 1/2 a day doing it, isn't going to make a profitable service.

Trains from Lancaster to Carlisle run through the middle of nowhere for most of the time, are you suggesting we stop those?

Stop looking at the S&C as a beginning and an end, see it as part of a much longer route. If upgraded for faster running it provides a viable route for travel between vast populations in West & South Yorkshire and surrounding areas to Carlisle and Scotland.

 

[yorkie]

Could easily present the idea, could easily get clearance and could easily go belly up in a few months. Some people really don't get Open Access. It needs to make a profit and running through the middle of nowhere where nobody lives, and take 1/2 a day doing it, isn't going to make a profitable service.

Trains from Lancaster to Carlisle run through the middle of nowhere for most of the time, are you suggesting we stop those?

There is no prospect of open access trains on such routes; there is (and never will be) nothing to "stop".

It is not "easy" to get paths or clearance for open access.

Whatever we would like to happen, the reality is as stated by Bertie the bus

 

[DarloRich]

If EMT were to take the GC HSTs initially to allow PRM modifications on their existing fleet, could these additional units be used to introduce a Thames-Clyde express service between Glasgow and St. Pancras once the modification work is complete.

A twice-daily extension of an existing early morning and evening Sheffield service via Derby, Leeds, Settle & Carlisle would offer an alternative to the WCML.
While London to Glasgow timings would be longer, it could offer an alternative product in a similar way to how Chiltern are competing with VT and LM on services to Birmingham.
And offer a welcome addition for those wishing to travel from the Midlands and South Yorkshire to Scotland or an opportunity for tourist traffic wishing to experience the S&C from a London terminus.

I do love these threads! Cheer me up no end.

Could easily present the idea, could easily get clearance and could easily go belly up in a few months. Some people really don't get Open Access. It needs to make a profit and running through the middle of nowhere where nobody lives, and take 1/2 a day doing it, isn't going to make a profitable service.

We have a winner!

( btw I would contest "easily" get clearance!)

 

[yorkie]

Open access operator could easily present this idea, and could easily get clearance.

( btw I would contest "easily" get clearance!)

Indeed. In fact I was talking with someone who was on their way back from negotiating with Network Rail for open access paths and he was saying how incredibly difficult it is, and gave various examples.

 

[47802]

Trains from Lancaster to Carlisle run through the middle of nowhere for most of the time, are you suggesting we stop those?

Stop looking at the S&C as a beginning and an end, see it as part of a much longer route. If upgraded for faster running it provides a viable route for travel between vast populations in West & South Yorkshire and surrounding areas to Carlisle and Scotland.

And how much would it cost to upgrade the S&C? There is already an hourly Service to Edinburgh and 2 hourly Service to Glasgow serving West and South Yorkshire and TPE service West Yorks to Edinburgh in a few years time. If its run by an Open Access operator then as has already been stated in will need to be profitable, find Paths and get around revenue abstraction issues, and I expect any potential revenue abstraction from Northern would be very difficult given its a highly subsidised franchise.

 

[47271]

What sort of speed is possible on the S&C by the way, I've never travelled on it? I don't mean when brought up to an immaculate standard, although that would be interesting too, but as of now?

 

[Bald Rick]

What sort of speed is possible on the S&C by the way, I've never travelled on it? I don't mean when brought up to an immaculate standard, although that would be interesting too, but as of now?

Mostly 60 or 75mph.

 

[Condor7]

And how much would it cost to upgrade the S&C? There is already an hourly Service to Edinburgh and 2 hourly Service to Glasgow serving West and South Yorkshire and TPE service West Yorks to Edinburgh in a few years time. If its run by an Open Access operator then as has already been stated in will need to be profitable, find Paths and get around revenue abstraction issues, and I expect any potential revenue abstraction from Northern would be very difficult given its a highly subsidised franchise.

Yes I appreciate that, and realise saying "upgrade the S&C" and doing it are two different things. I was really responding to the comment that it would never make a profit running through the middle of nowhere where nobody lives, which is often raised as an argument against running through services, when in fact there are many stretches of line in the UK that run through the midddle of nowhere but are profitable as they are part of a much longer journey.

 

[Bald Rick]

Yes I appreciate that, and realise saying "upgrade the S&C" and doing it are two different things. I was really responding to the comment that it would never make a profit running through the middle of nowhere where nobody lives, which is often raised as an argument against running through services, when in fact there are many stretches of line in the UK that run through the midddle of nowhere but are profitable as they are part of a much longer journey.

Define profitable, and define 'middle of nowhere'!

With the exception of the ECML and WCML, I can't think of any routes that run through the 'middle of nowhere' that turn a profit for the TOC, let alone when all industry costs are taken into account. Noting that both the ECML and WCML are fast, frequent mainline services on established heavy passenger flows from London to the central belt of Scotland. Even then I have doubts about the WCML north of Carlisle.

 

[70014IronDuke]

Mostly 60 or 75mph.

I thought the line speed (at least, that's what we used to call it) for the S&C today is 60 mph throughout?

But this is just one answer to the question, which I thought referred to "possible" as in "the future if they wanted to spend some money on the route".

So, in response to that question, my answer would be: AFAIK, the S&C was built as a main-line railway with a line speed of 90 mph. If I remember correctly, by 1971 BR had introduced an 80 mph line speed. I presume, after maintenance was reduced in the run up for the expected closure that it had to be reduced to 60 mph.

In view of the above, I'd say th eline speed could most definitely be raised to 75 mph, if not 90 mph, if the money were spent. 90 mph is not going to happen, I can accept that, but I do wonder how much it would cost to make it 75 mph. It would certainly help to cut timings, most especially for 'express' services. Steam timings with compounds for Appleby - Carlisle expresses start to stop were 30 minutes. Downhill, of course, but the currend DMU timing is something like 43 minutes with three stops - pretty unattractive if time is of the essence.

 

[70014IronDuke]

Define profitable, and define 'middle of nowhere'!

With the exception of the ECML and WCML, I can't think of any routes that run through the 'middle of nowhere' that turn a profit for the TOC, let alone when all industry costs are taken into account. Noting that both the ECML and WCML are fast, frequent mainline services on established heavy passenger flows from London to the central belt of Scotland. Even then I have doubts about the WCML north of Carlisle.

As you say: "define the middle of nowhere" - but Condor7 has a point. Of course, it would help the S&C's ticket sales if there were a town of 100,000 at Garsdale, but I think, in layman's terms, you could say the S&C, LAncaster and Carslisle, Carlisle-Motherwell, and York-Darlington would fit that description - with apologies to residents of Keswick, Thirsk, Moffat etc.

Taunton - Westbury or even Hungerford would be in with a shout too.

 

[class26]

I thought the line speed (at least, that's what we used to call it) for the S&C today is 60 mph throughout?

But this is just one answer to the question, which I thought referred to "possible" as in "the future if they wanted to spend some money on the route".

So, in response to that question, my answer would be: AFAIK, the S&C was built as a main-line railway with a line speed of 90 mph. If I remember correctly, by 1971 BR had introduced an 80 mph line speed. I presume, after maintenance was reduced in the run up for the expected closure that it had to be reduced to 60 mph.

In view of the above, I'd say th eline speed could most definitely be raised to 75 mph, if not 90 mph, if the money were spent. 90 mph is not going to happen, I can accept that, but I do wonder how much it would cost to make it 75 mph. It would certainly help to cut timings, most especially for 'express' services. Steam timings with compounds for Appleby - Carlisle expresses start to stop were 30 minutes. Downhill, of course, but the currend DMU timing is something like 43 minutes with three stops - pretty unattractive if time is of the essence.

In MOdern Railways a couple of years ago it was stated that after the relaying of the track it was suitable for 75 mph once signalling had been adjusted which presumably has not been. It was also stated that for lighter DMU`s a higher speed was more than likely possible

 

[The Planner]

It was looked at again a few years back, there is more to do than people think and it got shelved.

 

[70014IronDuke]

It was looked at again a few years back, there is more to do than people think and it got shelved.

What were the sticking points? What about doing selected parts, ie the cheaper bits? And what time savings were being envisaged for the fasts? 15-20 mins, I'd guess, if you could get Skipton-Pettrel Bridge up to 75, except for places like Dent, with its crossing, etc.

 

[The Planner]

Nowhere near that much time saving. Structures were mentioned previously and the easy increases were too sporadic.

 

[BigCj34]

Presumably it would be more logical to try a service first before considering upgrades. Given the current level of service it would be difficult to see how line speed increases could be justified unless other works were carried out which could allow it.

Although open access could is supposedly very difficult to get into the play, could a Scotland-East Midlands route be incorporated into any other franchises, such as XC? The route would be more logical geographically than some of the XC routes which go from Glasgow to the North-East then meander back to Birmingham.

 

[Condor7]

Define profitable, and define 'middle of nowhere'

What kind of question is that?
Profitable means making a profit.
As far as defining the middle of nowhere that was not even my words, as I mentioned previously I was quoting what someone else said.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Presumably it would be more logical to try a service first before considering upgrades. Given the current level of service it would be difficult to see how line speed increases could be justified unless other works were carried out which could allow it.

Although open access could is supposedly very difficult to get into the play, could a Scotland-East Midlands route be incorporated into any other franchises, such as XC? The route would be more logical geographically than some of the XC routes which go from Glasgow to the North-East then meander back to Birmingham.

The Scotland - NE - Brum etc axis on XC caters for many of the intermediate flows (such as Glasgow - Tyneside - once the "property" of GNER) , which is the current raison d'etre of the business. XC is not about tearing across the country at great speed , but dealing with many hundreds of smaller , connecting flows from many centres of population.

 

[BigCj34]

The Scotland - NE - Brum etc axis on XC caters for many of the intermediate flows (such as Glasgow - Tyneside - once the "property" of GNER) , which is the current raison d'etre of the business. XC is not about tearing across the country at great speed , but dealing with many hundreds of smaller , connecting flows from many centres of population.

I certainly see your point, it's not really designed for end to end travel. Getting from Glasgow to Bristol would be achieved quicker by going via Birmingham NS.

Could the DrT stipulate any future operator serving Scotland (XC or TPE for instance) to run a Scotland-Yorkshire- East Midland service via the S&C? They did ensure the S&C and Bentham line would get extra services under Northern.