My idea for St Pancras - Huddersfield via Sheffield and Barnsley

[Failed Unit]

How about St Pancras - Huddersfield via Sheffield and Barnsley? Or to slow to ever be used.

 

[NorthernSpirit]

It'd work as a single daily return, one out and one back to fit around the Northern stopper.

I wonder if there's space for it to stop at Brockholes (for Holmfirth), or both Honley and Brockholes since there's only two minutes between the stations. Penistone would be entertaining since its on a curve.

 

[jfisher21]

Yes if it went St Pancras - Leicester - direct to Chesterfield, Sheffield,Huddersfield it maybe could get there in 3 hours and be competitive.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

It'd work as a single daily return, one out and one back to fit around the Northern stopper.

I wonder if there's space for it to stop at Brockholes (for Holmfirth), or both Honley and Brockholes since there's only two minutes between the stations. Penistone would be entertaining since its on a curve.

Presumably you'd use a 4-car 222, only chance of intermediate calls would be if they have SDO. It'd have to use 4b at Huddersfield as the dedicated Penistone line bay is too short. With a slight tweak of the timetable (and assuming the signalling allows it) it could leave just ahead of the local and cross the down service at Penistone. Though depending on the weight of 222s they might be restricted to 10mph over Longroyd Bridge/Paddock Viaduct*. Don't think the curve at PNS would be a deal-breaker as 158s are okay- though 222s wouldn't be grandfathered-in of course.
When Midland Mainline did the Barnsley service it was an awkwardly timed token gesture: if the same was done with a Huddersfield service it'd be a similar failure.

*= Having passed earlier, the speed board at the start of the viaduct shows 10; DMU 50. If I recall correctly DMU speeds do apply to 222s, not that you'd get one to 50 that side of Berry Brow!

 

[njamescouk]

stopping at penistone would be good!

 

[tommy2215]

I think this would be good. Huddersfield deserves a direct service to London and currently there are no train companies besides East Midlands Trains operating on the Midland Mainline North of Bedford so it'd be good if someone was competing against them, even if its just one two or three services each day.

 

[noddingdonkey]

I thought a prospective Open Access operator had proposed such a service but wasn't able to make it work?

 

[bbrez]

I think this would be good. Huddersfield deserves a direct service to London and currently there are no train companies besides East Midlands Trains operating on the Midland Mainline North of Bedford so it'd be good if someone was competing against them, even if its just one two or three services each day.

I believe Huddersfield is getting a direct service from 2019 from whoever is running the East Cost service then. But I'd love a quicker service from Huddersfield to Sheffield - the time it takes now is abysmal.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I believe Huddersfield is getting a direct service from 2019 from whoever is running the East Cost service then. But I'd love a quicker service from Huddersfield to Sheffield - the time it takes now is abysmal.

More pressing is an increase in frequency- 2tph from 0700 to 1930 and a later last service leaving both ends. Of course that needs a new loop though.

For a fast service from HUD to Sheffield the Horbury curve should be the answer, as then you avoid the detour to get to Barnsley.

EDIT: Whichever was done, it all costs £££s... and there'd be no help from WYITA because Leeds is the centre of the universe!

 

[Flying Claret]

More pressing is an increase in frequency- 2tph from 0700 to 1930 and a later last service leaving both ends. Of course that needs a new loop

For a fast service from HUD to Sheffield the Horbury curve should be the answer, as then you avoid the detour to get to Barnsley.

EDIT: Whichever was done, it all costs £££s... and there'd be no help from WYITA because Leeds is the centre of the universe!

Roughly how long would the journey take via horbury?

 

[Andyh82]

I’m not familiar with the diagrams, but I’m sure it could be done.

You’d presumably just take the latest 222 run service that starts it’s day at Sheffield, and the earliest 222 service that finishes its day at Sheffield and extend them.

You would of course need to get them ECS back from/to EMT land before and after and all those extra trips will need many more crews.

Assuming those services are fairly fast from Sheffield to London, and SDO means they could stop at some points along the way between Huddersfield and Sheffield, then I could imagine the services being popular.

 

[BrianB]

Roughly how long would the journey take via horbury?

Huddersfield to Horbury Junction can currently be done in 18 minutes and Horbury Junction to Sheffield in about 32. If the western side of the Horbury triangle was re-instated then take 5 off that so probably about 45 minutes if only calling at Barnsley and Meadowhall. In the late 70s there used to be a summer Saturday 0850 Sheffield - Llandudno went that way, about 4 coaches long, attached to a Leeds - Llandudno at Huddersfield. It was slow then though, one day when the Sheffield portion was cancelled all the passengers were put on the 0908 Huddersfield via Penistone DMU and still caught up with the Leeds portion at Huddersfield.

 

[kevconnor]

Do the 222's stable at Neville Hill or Etches Park (or both)?

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Huddersfield to Horbury Junction can currently be done in 18 minutes and Horbury Junction to Sheffield in about 32. If the western side of the Horbury triangle was re-instated then take 5 off that so probably about 45 minutes if only calling at Barnsley and Meadowhall. In the late 70s there used to be a summer Saturday 0850 Sheffield - Llandudno went that way, about 4 coaches long, attached to a Leeds - Llandudno at Huddersfield. It was slow then though, one day when the Sheffield portion was cancelled all the passengers were put on the 0908 Huddersfield via Penistone DMU and still caught up with the Leeds portion at Huddersfield.

Thanks for looking that up, I got as far as looking up the timing of the Huddersfield to Wakefield as far as Healey Mills B before life intervened!
Bear in mind that the aforementioned stopper via Penistone may have been quicker than today due to being routed via Deepcar rather than via Barnsley, even with the reversal and run through the closed Victoria station. Though I assume linespeeds have risen since then through both jointed track being replaced, and through realignment when most of Penistone to Huddersfield was singled in the mid-80s. There's also one extra stop at Berry Brow. If the same arrangements were applied today, the Penistone line service would struggle to meet the Leeds portion!

 

[BrianB]

Thanks for looking that up, I got as far as looking up the timing of the Huddersfield to Wakefield as far as Healey Mills B before life intervened!
Bear in mind that the aforementioned stopper via Penistone may have been quicker than today due to being routed via Deepcar rather than via Barnsley, even with the reversal and run through the closed Victoria station. Though I assume linespeeds have risen since then through both jointed track being replaced, and through realignment when most of Penistone to Huddersfield was singled in the mid-80s. There's also one extra stop at Berry Brow. If the same arrangements were applied today, the Penistone line service would struggle to meet the Leeds portion!

Yes, back then the DMU took 23 mins to Penistone and 30 more to Huddersfield, including the reversal at Nunnery. It was an exciting ride, a power twin 101 or a 3 car Calder valley unit would be doing 70 by Neepsend, even when fully loaded, and held that uphill continuously to Barnsley Junction at Penistone. Coming downhill to Sheffield was even better... but that digresses from the topic into nostalgia...

 

[HiPa]

Do the 222's stable at Neville Hill or Etches Park (or both)?

Etches Park. A couple of units at St Pancras/Cricklewood for early departures from the capital.

Five HST sets at Neville Hill nightly

 

[Flying Claret]

Huddersfield to Horbury Junction can currently be done in 18 minutes and Horbury Junction to Sheffield in about 32. If the western side of the Horbury triangle was re-instated then take 5 off that so probably about 45 minutes if only calling at Barnsley and Meadowhall. In the late 70s there used to be a summer Saturday 0850 Sheffield - Llandudno went that way, about 4 coaches long, attached to a Leeds - Llandudno at Huddersfield. It was slow then though, one day when the Sheffield portion was cancelled all the passengers were put on the 0908 Huddersfield via Penistone DMU and still caught up with the Leeds portion at Huddersfield.

Thanks. I'm pretty sure there was a 'football special' last year which took the sheff weds fans home from Udders via horbury. Would that need to reverse at kirkgate?

 

[BrianB]

There was a daily Halifax to Sheffield service years ago which attached to a Bradford FS to St Pancras train at Sheffield. Not sure when it ended, but in 1962 the Mon-Fri schedule was:

HALIFAX............0850............2225
BRIGHOUSE.......0900............2213
HUDDERSFIELD..0911............2202
PENISTONE........0936............2142
BARNSLEY..........0953............2118
SHEFFIELD M.....1023/1040....2038/2046
CHESTERFIELD...1103............2010
NOTTINGHAM.....1148............ ----
DERBY............... ---- ............1938
LEICESTER......... ---- ............1858
ST PANCRAS......1400.............1705

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Thanks. I'm pretty sure there was a 'football special' last year which took the sheff weds fans home from Udders via horbury. Would that need to reverse at kirkgate?

That service ran for the last couple of years that the two sides were in the same division (possibly to resume next, but I hope not!), at least in part due to complaints about non-football passengers being unable to board the hourly Pacer. Yes it reversed at Kirkgate but presumably nobody was permitted to board or alight.

 

[HiPa]

Would that need to reverse at kirkgate?

HUD > SHF via Hare Park Jn & Moorthorpe Jn would negate the need for reversing at Kirkgate.

 

[MG11]

Yes if it went St Pancras - Leicester - direct to Chesterfield, Sheffield,Huddersfield it maybe could get there in 3 hours and be competitive.

I would think STP - Derby - CHD and so on would be better, Leicester already has 4 tph from London and trains have to slow down severely to negotiate the junction south of Derby anyway, so it eould make sense to stop at DBY instead.

 

[HiPa]

I would think STP - Derby - CHD and so on would be better, Leicester already has 4 tph from London and trains have to slow down severely to negotiate the junction south of Derby anyway, so it eould make sense to stop at DBY instead.

Here is the line-speed changes avoiding Derby & running via the Erewash Line:

East Midlands Parkway 120mph > Ratcliffe Jn 90mph > Trent South Jn 70mph > Trent East 30mph > 80mph

 

[Flying Claret]

That service ran for the last couple of years that the two sides were in the same division (possibly to resume next, but I hope not!), at least in part due to complaints about non-football passengers being unable to board the hourly Pacer. Yes it reversed at Kirkgate but presumably nobody was permitted to board or alight.

Thanks. Yes hopefully you'l stay up...

 

[Flying Claret]

HUD > SHF via Hare Park Jn & Moorthorpe Jn would negate the need for reversing at Kirkgate.

Interesting. Which route would be quickest?

 

[61653 HTAFC]

HUD > SHF via Hare Park Jn & Moorthorpe Jn would negate the need for reversing at Kirkgate.

Do Northern crews sign that route though?

Of course they could learn it (just as they'd have to learn Horbury curve) but probably not worth it for a one-off footex!