My idea to extend CrossCountry Manchester terminators after Northern Hub

[thenorthern]

I know this would never happen and your going to tell me why.

Here is a thought I was wondering after the Ordsall Chord and Northern Hub proposals are implemented would it be worth extending some of the CrossCountry terminators at Manchester Piccadilly onto either Liverpool Lime Street via Earlstown or Leeds via Manchester Victoria and Huddersfield.

It would be able to give either 1) Stockport, Macclesfield and Stoke-on-Trent, Stafford and Wolverhampton a direct link to Leeds which none of them currently have or 2) direct trains from Stoke-on-Trent and Macclesfield to Liverpool as well as faster trains from Stockport to Liverpool.

What does everyone else think?

 

[Philip]

It should go back to what it was until 10 years ago, extending to Scotland via Bolton and Preston. There are already too many trains running between Manchester and Huddersfield and as far as Liverpool is concerned would it not be quicker changing at Crewe for Stoke? Stockport to Liverpool already has a fast service, a Cross Country won't really speed things up much more.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There aren't enough Voyagers to extend CrossCountry anywhere.

Neil

 

[The Planner]

Is there demand for such services or is it just joining up dots, is one change for all of these places really an issue? Rolling stock will be a problem as you'll need more diagrams for it, you are chucking yet more trains down the Castlefield corridor too.

 

[Senex]

It should go back to what it was until 10 years ago, extending to Scotland via Bolton and Preston. There are already too many trains running between Manchester and Huddersfield and as far as Liverpool is concerned would it not be quicker changing at Crewe for Stoke? Stockport to Liverpool already has a fast service, a Cross Country won't really speed things up much more.

Wasn't it the time-penalty of running via Manchester that killed the former XC service? That should be very significantly less after electrification and upgrading of the Bolton line.

I've never quite understood why XC was so against this time-penalty whilst apparently happily accepting a major penalty for running between Sheffield and York via Leeds instead of direct or via Doncaster -- and even wanting more services to go via Leeds. (Sheffield to York via Wakefield and Leeds, c.65 to 70 minutes; via Doncaster, given good pathing, c.45 minutes; and possibly slightly faster via Ferrybridge.)

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Planning services on the routes through Manchester after Northern Hub must be a big headache for Network Rail and the TOCs, particularly around Ordsall Lane.
New routes will be available but overall capacity won't increase much with all the conflicting moves.
Much of that is already spoken for on the Victoria-Oxford Road-Airport axis.

 

[thenorthern]

If I remember correctly the South Coast - Birmingham - Manchester - Scotland trains were spilt in 2003 because of performance issues as at the time punctuality performance on Virgin Cross Country was about 50% which when you are having to cross both the Manchester and Birmingham commuter networks is not ideal to have delays.

Until 2007 most the Birmingham to Scotland via Warrington trains ran from Bristol and beyond (I think) to Edinburgh Glasgow. The Bristol trains now of course run to Manchester Piccadilly via Stoke-on-Trent and the Birmingham to Glasgow and Edinburgh trains have now joined with the London to Wolverhampton train to form a London - Scotland via the West Midlands service.

From a personal point of view I would like to see the same thing happen here where the Manchester to Edinburgh and Glasgow trains are joined up with one of the London to Manchester trains, I don't think punctuality would be as much of an issue as before as London - Manchester trains keep to fairly good timings already.

 

[Whistler40145]

When the Ordsall Chord opens, why not run CrossCountry services via Denton & Victoria, then via the Ordsall Chord & Manchester Piccadilly & vice versa?

No extra trains required, only problem would be pathing.

 

[swt_passenger]

The main XC route changes happened in 2007, not 2003.

I expect they would prefer all their NE services to go via Leeds because that provides a huge number of passengers. For the same reason they want all the SE services to go via Coventry, rather than the more direct route. Both proposals are in accordance with the last relevant RUSs for those parts of the country affected.

 

[The Planner]

What problem are you solving there? Consdering the Bournemouths and Bristols interwork it wouldn't be as simple. Could you actually get around that way with all the conflictions you are importing within the 30 minutes the trains turnaround in? they wouldn't go first on the graph so its doubtful.

 

[GrimsbyPacer]

There aren't enough Voyagers to extend CrossCountry anywhere.

Neil

Some Meridians from East Midlands will become available when Corby get electric trains. Where will they likely go?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Don't know, but somewhere they could release local style DMUs to Northern would make sense, TPE or ATW perhaps?

 

[swt_passenger]

Some Meridians from East Midlands will become available when Corby get electric trains. Where will they likely go?

Initially, I wouldn't be surprised if they simply strengthen other MML services. Maybe it will be seen as heresy, but perhaps they could even retire a couple of their obsolescent HSTs?

 

[Ash Bridge]

When the Ordsall Chord opens, why not run CrossCountry services via Denton & Victoria, then via the Ordsall Chord & Manchester Piccadilly & vice versa?

No extra trains required, only problem would be pathing.

I think the main problem there would be conflicting moves at Heaton Norris Junc. I've read Network Rail have cited this as a hurdle over calls for a reinstated service from Stockport-Victoria calling at Reddish South/Denton. (Not to mention lack of stock)

 

[fowler9]

I would love to see Liverpool have a cross country service again but via Manchester would I think be a none starter, nothing against Manchester.

 

[Whistler40145]

Don't think you'd get paths via Earlestown, but maybe via Warrington Central?

 

[fowler9]

Don't think you'd get paths via Earlestown, but maybe via Warrington Central?

I doubt it especially in the peak hours. The Northern stopping services already hold up the EMT and FTP services by about 10 mins. Once they get to Hunts Cross, South Parkway and Edge Hill it gets worse.

 

[thenorthern]

The main XC route changes happened in 2007, not 2003.

Indeed but the the through trains at Manchester Piccadilly were split in 2003.