My ideas for Caldervale services

[tbtc]

Bradford Crossrail is an interesting idea. Whilst it'd be better to have it than not to have it, it wouldn't really link anywhere that useful that doesn't already have a service, so (whilst it would save on a lot of reversing at Interchange and would simplify Bradford - Leeds journeys since passngers could go to one station and join a service in either direction) I'm not sure there are enough benefits to justify the huge costs of demolishing a huge gap in the middle of Bradford - especially not when the centre is strugling enough as it is at the moment!

 

[IanD]

Bradford Crossrail is an interesting idea. Whilst it'd be better to have it than not to have it, it wouldn't really link anywhere that useful that doesn't already have a service, so (whilst it would save on a lot of reversing at Interchange and would simplify Bradford - Leeds journeys since passngers could go to one station and join a service in either direction) I'm not sure there are enough benefits to justify the huge costs of demolishing a huge gap in the middle of Bradford - especially not when the centre is strugling enough as it is at the moment!

There's already a big hole in the centre of Bradford waiting for Westfield or someone to build a shopping centre which is exactly right for a Bradford crossrail route. I think the hole has been there for at least 5 years.

BRUG (Bradford Rail Users Group) has been campaigning for this for years.

http://bradfordrail.com/cross-rail/

The argument against has always been that the height difference between the two stations is too great but that assumes that you link the 2 existing stations on their current sites. Get rid of both stations and build a new central station as part of the new shopping centre. An alignment could then be built across the car park behind the Victoria Hotel (ie the site of the old Exchange station), across Forster Square itself (through the shopping mall) and through the old Royal Mail sorting office. The current station sites would then be opened up for development or used to replace the small amount of parking that may be lost at the Forster Square retail development.

Something like the attached.

 

[Deerfold]

There's already a big hole in the centre of Bradford waiting for Westfield or someone to build a shopping centre which is exactly right for a Bradford crossrail route. I think the hole has been there for at least 5 years.

BRUG (Bradford Rail Users Group) has been campaigning for this for years.

http://bradfordrail.com/cross-rail/

The argument against has always been that the height difference between the two stations is too great but that assumes that you link the 2 existing stations on their current sites. Get rid of both stations and build a new central station as part of the new shopping centre. An alignment could then be built across the car park behind the Victoria Hotel (ie the site of the old Exchange station), across Forster Square itself (through the shopping mall) and through the old Royal Mail sorting office. The current station sites would then be opened up for development or used to replace the small amount of parking that may be lost at the Forster Square retail development.

Something like the attached.

Unless you can fit in a bus station on this Central site you'll lose a lot of useful train-bus connections (although you'd reduce the need for the one I do most often, arriving by train at Bradford from Halifax or Sowerby Bridge or Halifax and hopping on a bus to Keighley so saving the walks across Bradford and Keighley and with the high frequency of the buses often a similar total journey time).

Unfortuantely there's already a lot of links been lost with so many routes not using the interchange.

 

[IanD]

Unfortuantely there's already a lot of links been lost with so many routes not using the interchange.

True - the re-configuration of the bus part of the Interchange seemed to involve routing a lot of services away particularly with the remaing cross-city routes (which themselves seem to have been greatly reduced in number).

 

[Waverley125]

Bradford Crossrail is a great scheme, and while not imperative to the wider rail network, it is probably the best infrastructure project for Bradford as a city that we could build. It would also have some pretty handy outcomes as well.

The best version of the project, is the building of the Forster Square-Interchange line, with both stations demolished & a new station on Forster Square. This station could be directly linked in to any new retail development, as well as have a walkway to the existing bus interchange.

The scheme would also include re-opening Low Moor-Thornhill Lees via Cleckheaton, Liversedge & Heckmondwike (The Spen Line) as well as Laisterdyke-Low Moor (the Bowling Curve) with a new station at Wakefield Road, on the edge of the city centre.

Lastly, it would involve significant electrification of the Caldervale line, from Leeds to Huddersfield via Bradford, Halifax & Brighouse.

This would result in:

-Airedale terminators continuing to Huddersfield & Wakefield, giving better cross-city connection

-making Bradford CC more accessible from a range of locations (Huddersfield, the Spen towns)

-Making Bradford a natural stop on through trains (e.g. to Carlisle, going via Pudsey & Bradford instead of Shipley)

-reducing time penalties for reversal on trains into Leeds from the Calder Valley

-separating out Leeds-bound & Bradford-bound trains.

-allowing Leeds-Bradford services to run as a Leeds-Bradford-Leeds loop, freeing up paths

on the civic side of things, it puts Bradford back at the centre of a commuter network that has withered and died in the last 30 years. Given the above would allow not only long-distance trains to Manchester, but also more local stops (places like Low Moor, Hipperholme, Manningham, Laisterdyke etc.) it would make Bradford CC relatively easier to get to compared to Leeds CC. Given the way Leeds has siphoned off Bradford's natural commuter and visitor population, this is vital in order to get Bradford back growing again, which it hasn't done for a decade now.

I'd add that this could involve other works (e.g. wiring to Manchester via Hebden Bridge, re-opening Platform One at Halifax), but it would allow significantly more trains from Bradford to Huddersfield & other areas, as well as allowing stops to be dropped on fasts. So given Leeds-Bradford and Leeds-Halifax could be served without running the length of the Caldervale, Victoria services could be cut back at Bradford, calling Halifax, Sowerby Bridge, Mytholmroyd, Hebden Bridge, Todmorden, Rochdale & Victoria. A turnback at Todmorden would allow Leeds-Todmorden services to go via Dewsbury (hugely reducing journey times into Leeds for the Caldervale towns), and 'fasts' could then be introduced from Bradford to the west (i.e. Halifax, Todmorden, Rochdale, Victoria, Newton le Willows, St Helens Junction, Liverpool Lime St)

 

[Deerfold]

Making Bradford a natural stop on through trains (e.g. to Carlisle, going via Pudsey & Bradford instead of Shipley)

Wouldn't they still have to go via Shipley as well, slowing them down somewhat (and reminiscent of when the trains went Leeds - Shipley - Bradford - Shipley - Keighley - Carlisle largely due to few or no connecting trains)?

I'd add that this could involve other works (e.g. wiring to Manchester via Hebden Bridge, re-opening Platform One at Halifax),

Is that the one that's had part of a museum (who now own it) built on it?

A turnback at Todmorden would allow Leeds-Todmorden services to go via Dewsbury (hugely reducing journey times into Leeds for the Caldervale towns),

You'd have to find room for more fast trains on the Huddersfield line (I have travelled this way in times of disruption which worked well for me as the train I caught ran Leeds - Sowerby Bridge in 19 minutes).

 

[Waverley125]

Wouldn't they still have to go via Shipley as well, slowing them down somewhat (and reminiscent of when the trains went Leeds - Shipley - Bradford - Shipley - Keighley - Carlisle largely due to few or no connecting trains)?

Yes, they'd still go through platform 5 at shipley, but the lack of reversal would reduce the time penalty to around 10 minutes, and it'd provide a much better connection for Bradford to North Yorkshire. This is something I'm particularly in favour of if Leeds-Glasgow services via the S&C ever come to fruition.

Is that the one that's had part of a museum (who now own it) built on it?

Yes, currently platform 1 & the original station building is part of Eureka, the Children's museum. Given steadily increasing pax numbers at Halifax, it would make sense to reinstate this platform. All that needs happening is a connecting building to the new structure, the footbridge reconencted and the existing rooms having seats, vendors and maybe a coffee shop & newsagents put in. Wouldn't be a terribly expensive job.

With rising pax numbers, a bigger issue at Halifax may well be instating a new eastern platforml, with services for Brighouse & Sowerby Bridge splitting off.

You'd have to find room for more fast trains on the Huddersfield line (I have travelled this way in times of disruption which worked well for me as the train I caught ran Leeds - Sowerby Bridge in 19 minutes).

Agreed, this needs to happen as part of the Huddersfield line upgrade, which needs to happen in CP6 at the latest, including the reinstating of 4 lines between Dewsbury & Diggle, loops at Batley and additional lines between Copley Hill & Morley. Ideally there's be 4 lines from Leeds to Morley, with Morley tunnel being the sole bottleneck, and TPE services calling at Huddersfield only.

 

[JohnB57]

Agreed, this needs to happen as part of the Huddersfield line upgrade, which needs to happen in CP6 at the latest, including the reinstating of 4 lines between Dewsbury & Diggle, loops at Batley and additional lines between Copley Hill & Morley. Ideally there's be 4 lines from Leeds to Morley, with Morley tunnel being the sole bottleneck, and TPE services calling at Huddersfield only.

You have a very vivid imagination...

I'm sure there's a degree of "Devil's advocate" in your various posts and the vast majority of schemes you mention are clearly pipe dreams. Even if the economy was healthy, it would be difficult or impossible to justify them, but it's fun to dream.

However, if you were to quadruple the sections you mention, effectively Leeds to Diggle, where would you actually put the extra tracks on the sections that never had them? Only the Ravensthorpe/Heaton Lodge and Hillhouse/Diggle sections were originally quad, but of course there was the Leeds New Line and the Micklehurst Loop to ease capacity.

Also, when the Colne Valley section was halved in the seventies, the lines were slewed to ease speed restrictions so quadrupling would have a negative effect on line speed, negating some of the benefits of electrification.

I'm not a rail expert, just an enthusiast so my questions are not critical of your thoughts, just curious.

 

[tbtc]

There's already a big hole in the centre of Bradford waiting for Westfield or someone to build a shopping centre which is exactly right for a Bradford crossrail route. I think the hole has been there for at least 5 years.

BRUG (Bradford Rail Users Group) has been campaigning for this for years.

http://bradfordrail.com/cross-rail/

The argument against has always been that the height difference between the two stations is too great but that assumes that you link the 2 existing stations on their current sites. Get rid of both stations and build a new central station as part of the new shopping centre. An alignment could then be built across the car park behind the Victoria Hotel (ie the site of the old Exchange station), across Forster Square itself (through the shopping mall) and through the old Royal Mail sorting office. The current station sites would then be opened up for development or used to replace the small amount of parking that may be lost at the Forster Square retail development.

Something like the attached.

If it were feasible to do this (ignoring the financial cost, the disruption and the logistics of connecting the two lines), what is the main benefit of such a link?

Are there any major flows unable to be met by the current infrastructure?

 

[Waverley125]

You have a very vivid imagination...

I'm sure there's a degree of "Devil's advocate" in your various posts and the vast majority of schemes you mention are clearly pipe dreams. Even if the economy was healthy, it would be difficult or impossible to justify them, but it's fun to dream.

However, if you were to quadruple the sections you mention, effectively Leeds to Diggle, where would you actually put the extra tracks on the sections that never had them? Only the Ravensthorpe/Heaton Lodge and Hillhouse/Diggle sections were originally quad, but of course there was the Leeds New Line and the Micklehurst Loop to ease capacity.

Also, when the Colne Valley section was halved in the seventies, the lines were slewed to ease speed restrictions so quadrupling would have a negative effect on line speed, negating some of the benefits of electrification.

I'm not a rail expert, just an enthusiast so my questions are not critical of your thoughts, just curious.

some work would need to be done for four lines to reach Dewsbury, but it's by no means difficult-three bridge replacements and widening of an embankment. The line is then built for four lines all the way through to Diggle. The main obstacles would be a definite need to demolish & then rebuild Deighton station, as well as re-opening the old bores at Standedge.

As for line speeds, electrification will reduce JT's, so it should be about neutral, but given the building of the line, getting above 70/80 consistently is always going to be difficult.

 

[Welshman]

I'd add that this could involve other works (e.g. wiring to Manchester via Hebden Bridge, re-opening Platform One at Halifax), but it would allow significantly more trains from Bradford to Huddersfield & other areas, as well as allowing stops to be dropped on fasts. So given Leeds-Bradford and Leeds-Halifax could be served without running the length of the Caldervale,

I thought there was already a turnback siding just after Halifax station in the Sowerby Bridge direction to allow trains to return to Bradford & Leeds without running the whole length of the Calder Valley. I think there is also a similar facility at Hebden Bridge.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Yes, currently platform 1 & the original station building is part of Eureka, the Children's museum. Given steadily increasing pax numbers at Halifax, it would make sense to reinstate this platform. All that needs happening is a connecting building to the new structure, the footbridge reconencted and the existing rooms having seats, vendors and maybe a coffee shop & newsagents put in. Wouldn't be a terribly expensive job.

With rising pax numbers, a bigger issue at Halifax may well be instating a new eastern platforml, with services for Brighouse & Sowerby Bridge splitting off.

No, sorry.

The current platform 1[westbound] is the old platform 1[westbound]; the current platform 2[eastbound] is the old platform 2[westbound]. Eureka now occupies part of the old platforms 3 & 4, which were for eastbound and westbound trains respectively, and the site of the old platforms 5 & 6[which were both eastbound] completely.

IIRC, the bridge from the booking hall to the existing island platform runs across the old platform 3 - all that would be needed would be the entrance from the bridge to be re-opened and the staircase brought back into use. That, I think, would produce a reinstated platform for eastbound traffic relatively simply.

As for allowing Brighouse and Sowerby Bridge traffic to split in Halifax, that, in effect, was what used to happen in days of old when Brighouse and Huddersfield/Penistone traffic used platform 1 westbound, and Manchester traffic used the other face of the island platform [2 westbound]. It is difficult to see, now, how another westbound platform could be provided, unless you're thinking of widening the viaduct on which the station stands towards the direction of Nestle's.

Even then, the reinstatement of an extra westbound platform would not allow total segregation of Brighouse/Sowerby Bridge traffic. That would also require the widening of Dryclough Cutting, which would be a very expensive job.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Even then, the reinstatement of an extra westbound platform would not allow total segregation of Brighouse/Sowerby Bridge traffic. That would also require the widening of Dryclough Cutting, which would be a very expensive job.

In my very much younger days, I remember being told that there was a service from Halifax to Stockport, via Greetland and Huddersfield. Did that service use Dryclough Cutting ?

 

[Welshman]

In my very much younger days, I remember being told that there was a service from Halifax to Stockport, via Greetland and Huddersfield. Did that service use Dryclough Cutting ?

Sorry to be so long in answering, but I've been away this weekend.

Yes, indeed. I remember two services a day to Stockport. One started back from Bradford Exchange about 7.35am, and the second from Halifax at 3.55pm. AFAICR, both return services returned to Bradford.

From Halifax they went through Dryclough cutting and then down the incline to Greetland, then Brighouse, Huddersfield, Standedge, Stalybridge and Denton to Stockport Edgeley.

They were intended to make travelling from Bradford, Halifax and Huddersfield to Birmingham, Mid-Wales and the South West easier in the days when Bradford & Halifax services went into Manchester Victoria and Huddersfield trains went to Exchange, thereby neccessitating a trek across Manchester in the days before any bus or Metrolink connection.

AFAICR, both services ceased about 1965. In it's latter years, the morning service from Bradford was turned over to a 2-Car Met.Cam dmu, but the afternoon service from Halifax remained steam-hauled until the end, because that particular train also had the Palethorpes Van attached to the rear, and was well-known at the time for that. In fact, it probably carried more sausages than people!