Name and address

[MrTrain]

Having read the various posts, I understand that it is an offence to give a false name and address.

However, if you feel that you in the right can you refuse to give any name and address ?

 

[EM2]

To not do so is an offence under railway byelaw:

23. Name and address
(1) Any person reasonably suspected by an authorised person of breaching or attempting to breach any of these Byelaws shall give his name and address when asked by an authorised person.
(2) The authorised person asking for details under Byelaw 23(1) shall state the nature of the breach of any of these Byelaws in general terms at the time of the request.

 

[wintonian]

However, if you feel that you in the right can you refuse to give any name and address ?

In that case why would someone object?

Okey I know that I would be reluctant to for reasons of privacy, but not doing so when asked is only going to increase any suspicion that may exist and make things more difficult and drawn out, in addition the (possibly extra) offence that would be committed.

 

[Monty]

As others have stated, if you are suspected of breaching a bye law then you are required to give your name and address and failure to do so could land you in hot water.

 

[Flamingo]

I seem to remember the penalty has just been increased as well.

 

[michael769]

As mentioned the law requires that passengers give their name and address to any authorized person. Your only entitlement is to require that the person asking provides some evidence that they are an authorized person (by showing suitable ID).

Obviously there is a defence if the authorised person's suspicion was unreasonable, but it should be noted that suspicion is not the same thing as evidence. They don't have to know you have contravened a byelaw - they just need to think that you might have - so the bar for passing the test of reasonableness is very low.

If you are not willing to give your details to railway staff upon demand your best option is to not enter railway property.

 

[Chouette]

I think the thing that's been concerning me is the number of people being pursued for giving the "wrong" address... (speaking as someone who always has to ask "which one do you want, where I live, or where my important mail goes?").

How do I know where I'm listed under on their system? Surely it can't be an offence if my brain simply backfires under pressure and I give the "wrong" c/o address, or I'm carrying ID associated with the other one?

I'm also prone to transposing the digits of my house number, I suspect that's a dyslexia thing I DO know where I live, it's just it gets rather turned around between my brain and my mouth sometimes

 

[reb0118]

I think the thing that's been concerning me is the number of people being pursued for giving the "wrong" address... (speaking as someone who always has to ask "which one do you want, where I live, or where my important mail goes"

You should give both and let the railway decide, however if you do not receive and/or respond timeously to any correspondence because the mail was sent to the wrong address you would be liable for any escalation of the matter.

At the very least you should know the address that you are registered under for purposes of the electoral roll.

A much simpler way to look at this is to avoid breaching any railway byelaws whilst on railway property, a feat that millions of passengers seem to manage every day, then nobody will require any details.

 

[Chouette]

You should give both and let the railway decide, however if you do not receive and/or respond timeously to any correspondence because the mail was sent to the wrong address you would be liable for any escalation of the matter.

Mail sent to my actual address is somewhat pot luck (the joys of rented accomodation). If something goes missing between my parents and mine, at least I know I should have received it (they also filter out the bank letters etc and let me know if anything urgent turns up).

I adopted this policy after some enterprising person wrote cheques in my name for about 4 grand (luckily for me they bounced, but it took about a year for the bank to let me off the bounced cheque fees). Turns out that when forging cheques, even in the triple digits, any old signature will do, they don't check it

 

[talltim]

I've just moved house, I don't know my house number...

 

[Flamingo]

Well that's a pity, we'll see if the nice policeman can help you remember it...

 

[Anon Mouse]

Last year when dealing with a fare evasion issuie the lady in question wrote down 'Mickey Mouse, Disneyland'. Needless to say this address was handed in as part of my TIR report and false details and address considered!

 

[09065]

Mail sent to my actual address is somewhat pot luck (the joys of rented accomodation). If something goes missing between my parents and mine, at least I know I should have received it (they also filter out the bank letters etc and let me know if anything urgent turns up).

I adopted this policy after some enterprising person wrote cheques in my name for about 4 grand (luckily for me they bounced, but it took about a year for the bank to let me off the bounced cheque fees). Turns out that when forging cheques, even in the triple digits, any old signature will do, they don't check it

Most banks operate a policy of not checking the signatures under a certain ceiling. The bank I used for business purposes said they generally did it over £1k, but I would imagine that for personal accounts it should be much lower.

The question you have to ask though, is why so many people are determined to use dodgy e-mails to get your bank account information. Would it not be easier to set up a dodgy company and insist on payment by cheque to harvest every detail of your account they would need?

 

[sheff1]

A much simpler way to look at this is to avoid breaching any railway byelaws whilst on railway property, a feat that millions of passengers seem to manage every day, then nobody will require any details.

There have been a number of threads on here where people have not breached any byelaws but have still been asked for their details.

 

[wintonian]

Last year when dealing with a fare evasion issuie the lady in question wrote down 'Mickey Mouse, Disneyland'.

Well if you gave you name as "Anon Mouse" then I'm not surprised.

 

[island]

Surely it can't be an offence if my brain simply backfires under pressure and I give the "wrong" c/o address, or I'm carrying ID associated with the other one?

The ID you may be carrying should not come into play, as you are not required to give ID to an RPI under any relevant legislation.

There have been a number of threads on here where people have not breached any byelaws but have still been asked for their details.

The threshold is not that the person has breached the byelaws, but rather that an authorised person has reasonable belief that they have done so.

 

[WSW]

To not do so is an offence under railway byelaw:

23. Name and address
(1) Any person reasonably suspected by an authorised person of breaching or attempting to breach any of these Byelaws shall give his name and address when asked by an authorised person.
(2) The authorised person asking for details under Byelaw 23(1) shall state the nature of the breach of any of these Byelaws in general terms at the time of the request. [

A couple of questions:

1 How do you know if the person requesting the information is an "authorised person"? Having an ID card/badge does not give authorisation as such. Surely that person should carry and show on demand something that actually spells out in plain English that this person has a valid authorisation to demand a name and address?

2 Where is it written down, in law, that an address has to be "registered" and furthermore that it has to be on the electoral roll? I've never heard having to "register" an address. When I fill in the electoral roll form, I am registering the people at the address, not the address itself.

Just trying to get things clear.

Steve

 

[island]

(1) What would you suggest?

(2) There is no requirement for an address to be registered, whatever you mean by that, but there is a legal requirement to be on the electoral roll if one is eligible.

 

[Paul Kelly]

I think the thing that's been concerning me is the number of people being pursued for giving the "wrong" address... (speaking as someone who always has to ask "which one do you want, where I live, or where my important mail goes?").

I wouldn't have thought that mattered really; is the point of the requirement not simply that you give an address where you can be reached, so that they can get in contact with you at a later date regarding the dispute?

 

[Stigy]

(1) What would you suggest?

(2) There is no requirement for an address to be registered, whatever you mean by that, but there is a legal requirement to be on the electoral roll if one is eligible.

Indeed, although not the full electoral role however. The check IRCAS and the like use is not the full electoral role, and doesn't show everything...I think I got that the right way round at least, I know it's something of that ilk anyway.

Also, bear in mind that s5(2) of the Regulation of Railways Act 1889 allows the power of arrest to an authorised person until the offender can be brought before reasonable justice, for someone failing to supply their name and/or address after having failed to pay their fare. TOCs tend to frown upon their staff nicking people though

 

[wintonian]

(2) There is no requirement for an address to be registered, whatever you mean by that, but there is a legal requirement to be on the electoral roll if one is eligible.

To answer the second part of the question it is 'The Representation of the People (England and Wales) Regulations 2001' that empowers an officer to require persons to provide information in order to main such a register.

Power to require information23.—(1) A registration officer may require any person to give information required for the purposes of that officer’s duties in maintaining registers of parliamentary and local government electors.
(2) A registration officer is under a duty to require persons to give information required for the purposes of that officer’s duty under section 3(1) of the Juries Act 1974(1).
(3) If any person—
(a)fails to comply with, or
(b)gives false information in pursuance of,
any such requisition of the registration officer as is mentioned in this regulation, he shall be liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding level 3 on the standard scale.

 

[WSW]

To not do so is an offence under railway byelaw:

(1) What would you suggest?

(2) There is no requirement for an address to be registered, whatever you mean by that, but there is a legal requirement to be on the electoral roll if one is eligible.

1 I suggest the person demanding the information provide clear and unambiguous authorisation for such demands. Do they carry that kind of authorisation? Why should I give my name and address to any old person who demands it? Would you?

2 A "registered address" crops up on this forum quite a lot, including this thread, so I assume passengers are asked for a "registered" address. I just wanted to know what address (registered or not) you are expected to provide on demand. Not everyone has the opportunity to ensure their details are correctly (and legally) placed on the electoral roll (the annual task of providing info is done by the head of household) so it seems a very poor source of data to be checking anyway.

Steve

 

[AlexS]

An 'authorised person' is defined as:

'"authorised person" means:
(i) a person acting in the course of his duties who:
(a) is an employee or agent of an Operator, or
(b) any other person authorised by an Operator, or
(ii) any constable, acting in the execution of his duties upon or in connection with the railway;'

Therefore a railway photo ID card is sufficient evidence that a member of staff is an authorised person for the purpose of enforcing the byelaws, including the taking of a name and address. PACE training etc however is a bit of a different manner.

If you don't like the railway byelaws and the authority that they in theory confer, I would suggest you do not set foot on railway property.

 

[wintonian]

An 'authorised person' is defined as:

'"authorised person" means:
(i) a person acting in the course of his duties who:
(a) is an employee or agent of an Operator,

I must admit it has always troubled me that I have to provide my details on request to the on-board cleaner and how do you define agent? Do I also need to give my details to guy whose popped round to change the light bulb?

 

[Flamingo]

If either of them found you in a restricted (I.e. Non-public) area, then yes.

 

[talltim]

Well that's a pity, we'll see if the nice policeman can help you remember it...

To remember something, you have to have known it first... I do know most of it, just not the exact number (its three digits involving three out of 5,6,7 and 9)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

An 'authorised person' is defined as:

'"authorised person" means:
(i) a person acting in the course of his duties who:
(a) is an employee or agent of an Operator, or
(b) any other person authorised by an Operator, or
(ii) any constable, acting in the execution of his duties upon or in connection with the railway;'

Therefore a railway photo ID card is sufficient evidence that a member of staff is an authorised person for the purpose of enforcing the byelaws, .

How are you supposed to know what a railway ID card looks like?

 

[JoeH]

There are cases where the authorised person knows for certain that you haven't broken a bylaw, but still attempts to issue you a penalty fare. If you can show that they couldn't have reasonably suspected you of breaking a bylaw, is that a defence for not providing them with a name and address?

In a specific case involving me I was waiting for a train at a station with a vandalised TVM and no other way of buying a ticket. When my train arrived, and before boarding, I asked a RPI waiting in the vestibule what I should do. He told me to take a seat and that he would come over to sell me a ticket momentarily. The second the doors closed he tried to issue a penalty fare. I refused, got off at the next station, bought a ticket there and caught the next train.

I always thought his actions were pretty much criminal but because I had refused to give him a name and address I didn't want to complain about it and potentially get in trouble.

 

[wintonian]

If either of them found you in a restricted (I.e. Non-public) area, then yes.

Why when there is all ready the power to request a person leave any part of railway property with the power to enforce that if necessary?

In any case I was referring to the unlikely possibility of an on-board cleaner coming up-to you on a train in service and asking for your name and address just because they can, whilst finding a spurious reason to suspect you of breaching the by-laws.

 

[Deerfold]

(1) What would you suggest?

(2) There is no requirement for an address to be registered, whatever you mean by that, but there is a legal requirement to be on the electoral roll if one is eligible.

And what would happen if you were not registered and their address check failed? And perhaps not eligible - if you are not an EU citizen, for example?

 

[221129]

How does this work if you are under 18/16?