National Express Coaches Discussion

[Smethwickian]

There appear to be quite a lot of reductions across the network from September unless the full timetables havent been uploaded yet.

250 Ipswich - Colchester -Stansted Airport - Heathrow, and 482 Ipswich - Colchester - Stansted Airport - London both withdrawn from 2 September.
Replacement is 717 Ipswich - Colchester - Stansted Airport where passengers will have to change for anywhere beyond. Marks Tey will be served but not Braintree.

 

[ADB125]

250 Ipswich - Colchester -Stansted Airport - Heathrow, and 482 Ipswich - Colchester - Stansted Airport - London both withdrawn from 2 September.
Replacement is 717 Ipswich - Colchester - Stansted Airport where passengers will have to change for anywhere beyond. Marks Tey will be served but not Braintree.

Surprising that the 250 is going...I thought the airport routes were busy. I cant see changing at Stansted being attractive for many passengers, and services to Heathrow from there arent exactly frequent. The 482 is a very slow route into London so it is less surprising to see that get dropped.

I notice also that 561 and 564 appear to have a return trip dropped, leaving the northbound 564 with only 1 service.

150 is also being dropped to 3 services per day with some Leeds to Birmingham services being diverted away from Derby and Sheffield into Notingham instead.

 

[Eyersey468]

The 134 that leaves Leeds at 0645 is becoming a 132 to serve Nottingham instead of Derby from 2nd September

 

[dan5324]

Surprising that the 250 is going...I thought the airport routes were busy. I cant see changing at Stansted being attractive for many passengers, and services to Heathrow from there arent exactly frequent. The 482 is a very slow route into London so it is less surprising to see that get dropped.

I notice also that 561 and 564 appear to have a return trip dropped, leaving the northbound 564 with only 1 service.

150 is also being dropped to 3 services per day with some Leeds to Birmingham services being diverted away from Derby and Sheffield into Notingham instead.

Stansted has never quite got back to pre Covid levels unfortunately.

 

[Man of Kent]

Stansted has never quite got back to pre Covid levels unfortunately.

Civil Aviation Authority statistics show that 2023 passenger levels at Stansted were more than 99% of those of 2019. See Table 10.3 of the Annual Airport Data (large PDF document that cannot be posted directly) https://www.caa.co.uk/data-and-anal...irports/uk-airport-data/uk-airport-data-2023/
That's amongst the highest results for the major airports; Luton, by comparison, is at 90%.

 

[MCR247]

Civil Aviation Authority statistics show that 2023 passenger levels at Stansted were more than 99% of those of 2019. See Table 10.3 of the Annual Airport Data (large PDF document that cannot be posted directly) https://www.caa.co.uk/data-and-anal...irports/uk-airport-data/uk-airport-data-2023/
That's amongst the highest results for the major airports; Luton, by comparison, is at 90%.

Perhaps they meant in terms of coach travel, rather than air travel?

 

[dan5324]

Perhaps they meant in terms of coach travel, rather than air travel?

I did indeed.

 

[317 forever]

While I understand why the Manchester - London route generally no longer stops at a service station, it would be nice if there was a refreshment break at Milton Keynes Coachway. I understand driver changes occur there anyway. Even the use of the toilet onboard feels more of an emergency fallback rather than a typical experience.

As a result, I have reduced my use of coaches for London but can increase my use of them to head elsewhere, such as Leeds later this month. As it is, the journey length from Manchester to Leeds by coach is remarkably similar to by train, if not quicker (when the coach avoids Bradford).

 

[route101]

While I understand why the Manchester - London route generally no longer stops at a service station, it would be nice if there was a refreshment break at Milton Keynes Coachway. I understand driver changes occur there anyway. Even the use of the toilet onboard feels more of an emergency fallback rather than a typical experience.

As a result, I have reduced my use of coaches for London but can increase my use of them to head elsewhere, such as Leeds later this month. As it is, the journey length from Manchester to Leeds by coach is remarkably similar to by train, if not quicker (when the coach avoids Bradford).

I reckon all the service stops on National Express services are for the drivers and driver hours rather than for the passengers?

The Scottish services all stop for a break.

 

[markymark2000]

I reckon all the service stops on National Express services are for the drivers and driver hours rather than for the passengers?

The Scottish services all stop for a break.

That is one reason. The other bonus was on the 540, stopping at Norton Cannes means drivers get a voucher for free toll. Now, not stopping, means if they want to use the toll road, they will be paying upto £17.20 each journey.

 

[dmncf]

I noticed this news article: https://www.itv.com/news/westcountr...s-scraps-503-penzance-to-london-coach-service

National Express scraps 503 Penzance to London coach service

A coach service between London and Penzance has been scrapped, sparking criticism that rural communities are being cut off.

The 503 service between Penzance and London stopped running on Sunday 1 September.

A spokesperson for National Express, said: “This change is part of a comprehensive review of our national network and unfortunately the 503 service is commercially unviable.

“We appreciate that some people will be disappointed by this change. Although there are no immediate plans to reinstate the service, we will keep this decision under review.

“As an alternative the 504 service continues to operate with five services a day between Penzance and London.”

 

[Titfield]

I noticed this news article: https://www.itv.com/news/westcountr...s-scraps-503-penzance-to-london-coach-service

It has been the case for many years that the "all stops" long distance coach services have picked up / dropped off relatively few passengers at the minor stops. Problematically the lengthy journey time on these services (often caused by having to divert off motorways / dual carriageways etc to service the minor stops) has served to discourage those passengers seeking to travel between the main points thus undermining the financial viability of the service.

 

[158756]

It has been the case for many years that the "all stops" long distance coach services have picked up / dropped off relatively few passengers at the minor stops. Problematically the lengthy journey time on these services (often caused by having to divert off motorways / dual carriageways etc to service the minor stops) has served to discourage those passengers seeking to travel between the main points thus undermining the financial viability of the service.

In this case the 503 was actually the faster service end to end, using the A30 via Okehampton and Launceston , and only serving a few destinations in Cornwall. The 504 which survives goes via Plymouth and seems to stop at just about every lamppost in Cornwall - some journeys take over 4 hours between Plymouth and Penzance.

 

[Smethwickian]

Having dropped Stratford-upon-Avon from the network at the end of April 2023 (when there were two daily journeys on service 460) it's back from 16 September with one return journey daily numbered 408 at 0620 from Stratford via Coventry and Heathrow to London and 1930 return.
Wonder if it will last this time, and I wonder if any forum members in South Warwickshire will ever be able to report if there is any kind of local advertising or promotional activity for the service at all. NX still seems incapable of any kind of publicity for individual services.

 

[jammy36]

Interestingly, with Go-Ahead group having purchased several independent coach operators recently (Dartline, Pulhams, Regency, etc), it looks like National Express Group is moving in the opposite direction having agreed to dispose of Mortons Travel.

Mortons Travel sold by NatEx to Rambler Group Holdings - routeone

Mortons Travel of Basingstoke has been sold to Rambler Group Holdings by National Express for an undisclosed sum.

www.route-one.net

Mortons Travel of Basingstoke has been sold to Rambler Group Holdings by National Express for an undisclosed sum.

National Express says all 35 jobs, including driver roles, will be kept by Rambler Group and that the deal was completed today (3 September).

The purchasing group owns Hastings-based Rambler Coaches, which was established in 1924.

Rambler Group Chief Executive Qasim Ahmed says that all existing orders and school runs will be fulfilled, while work “will continue as usual”.

He says: “We are pleased to announce the strategic acquisition of Mortons Travel and look forward to building on its current success.

“The acquisition reflects our commitment to growth and innovation, enhancing our service offerings with a fleet of over 175 coaches and expanding our reach in the market.

“All existing booked orders will continue as usual, with the same high-quality service customers have come to expect. We remain focused on driving progress with a fresh perspective, a dedication to excellence, and an unwavering commitment to customer satisfaction.”

Mortons Travel, which was established in 2004, was bought in 2018 by Lucketts Group, which in turn was bought by National Express in 2020.

As part of the National Express Transport Solutions division, Morton remained as a brand but operated under the National Express name for all of its national sales and marketing activity.

Mark Heffernan, Chief Safety and Operations Officer, National Express, says: “We were pleased to complete this deal with Rambler Group Holdings as a key part of our business strategy.

“This sale enables us to increase efficiency and utilisation in our scheduled coach and private hire network and to deliver engineering work more efficiently from other depots.”

 

[londonbridge]

I booked on the 436 overnight from London to Sunderland leaving at 23:30 as usual and arriving at 6:20. Had an email saying I was being moved to the 466 due to the timetable change. 466 leaves at midnight, involves changing at Leeds and doesn’t arrive at Sunderland till 11:20. After discovering the 436 is still operating but with a new departure time of 23:00 I phoned them, the assistant I spoke to apologised and reinstated me on the 436, saying she didn’t know why they’d put me on the 466

 

[TravelDream]

Caught the 216 (Bristol Airport to Cardiff) again yesterday.
I wasn't the only passenger and my partner was onboard too, but that was it. £17 worth of fare for the 1.5 hour journey obviously isn't sustainable.
I've used the coach multiple times and there has never been more than a handful onboard.
Surely either NX or Flixbus need to blink as running empty coaches on practically the same schedule can't be sustainable for either.

 

[markymark2000]

Caught the 216 (Bristol Airport to Cardiff) again yesterday.
I wasn't the only passenger and my partner was onboard too, but that was it. £17 worth of fare for the 1.5 hour journey obviously isn't sustainable.
I've used the coach multiple times and there has never been more than a handful onboard.
Surely either NX or Flixbus need to blink as running empty coaches on practically the same schedule can't be sustainable for either.

I think NatEx issue is that the 216 only does Cardiff and Newport. The Bristol Airport catchment area covers most of the M4 corridor.
Purely based off what Flixbus booking engine is showing, many of their coaches are carrying decent numbers in and out of Bristol Airport. Including some trips which are fully booked. If I were to book right now for travel today, the fares are mostly less than a tenner, NatEx is £17 or so. You really are paying for a brand on this route, quality can't be much different between to two for the short journeys. If National Express has many more trips like your experience, I can't see the 216 remaining much longer.

 

[route101]

The 216 service would be really useful for me getting to South Wales. I would fly into Bristol and catch the 216.

 

[Flange Squeal]

Interestingly, with Go-Ahead group having purchased several independent coach operators recently (Dartline, Pulhams, Regency, etc), it looks like National Express Group is moving in the opposite direction having agreed to dispose of Mortons Travel.

Mortons Travel sold by NatEx to Rambler Group Holdings - routeone

Mortons Travel of Basingstoke has been sold to Rambler Group Holdings by National Express for an undisclosed sum.

www.route-one.net

National Express Transport Solutions have also now disposed of the VIP operations of the already much reduced Kings Ferry subsidiary.

The Solent Coaches licence has also been surrendered however one can only speculate as to whether that’s just to tidy up their number of licences or the fact the Bournemouth operating centre now features on the main H Luckett & Co licence is a bundling together ready to get rid of that as well?

Grange Travel of Gravesend has acquired TKF Football Services Limited following negotiations between its owners, The Kings Ferry, and the commercial directors of Grange Travel, Bryan Smith and Ruth Honey.

The transaction, which was guided by Backhouse Jones legal team, includes seven VIP coaches, six executive coaches and five football team contracts, including Premiership clubs, Fulham and Brentford. The deal is believed to make Grange Travel the second largest football team coach operator after Ellisons Coaches of St Helens.

“I’ve been in the industry for 20 years so this is a really exciting opportunity for Grange Travel to grow our VIP and football team coach operations”, said Ruth Honey, who previously worked at The Kings Ferry when it was in the ownership of the O’Neill family.

The VIP coaches are tabled vehicles with kitchens, WiFi and physio tables, which have been expertly converted by AD Coach Systems. The seven executive VIP coaches comprise five Tourismos, one Irizar i8 Integral and a VanHool Altano.

Grange Travel is no stranger to VIP operations, already running eight VIP coaches and having 13 sports teams within their portfolio: “This transaction strengthens our VIP offering,” said Bryan. “We will grow and develop the relationships with our existing and new customers.”

“Bryan, Graham and I want to thank the team at The Kings Ferry for this opportunity and putting faith in our business to continue the good work. We look forward to the future of our business, for which the possibilities are endless,” said Ruth.

Source: https://www.busandcoachbuyer.com/grange-travel-buys-kings-ferry-vip-services/

 

[dmncf]

I don't know what to think of these big transport companies.
Go-Ahead believe they can make a success of managing private hire coach companies and should buy more.
National Express have concluded that they can't make a success of managing private hire coach companies and should sell up.

 

[Titfield]

I don't know what to think of these big transport companies.
Go-Ahead believe they can make a success of managing private hire coach companies and should buy more.
National Express have concluded that they can't make a success of managing private hire coach companies and should sell up.

I have to agree with you. I always thought that demand for private hire was highly variable and that you needed a very flexible driver cohort on flexible terms otherwise you would be paying for unproductive drivers. Somehow I cant see such drivers fitting in well with the management style of the nationwide operators.

Happy for someone to explain both Go-Ahead and National Express strategy to me.

 

[markymark2000]

I don't know what to think of these big transport companies.
Go-Ahead believe they can make a success of managing private hire coach companies and should buy more.
National Express have concluded that they can't make a success of managing private hire coach companies and should sell up.

I think the logic at the time was that for some of the companies, the majority of the work was National Express. Therefore, saw it as a cheaper way of running the network, in house. Along with bringing some operators into NatEx, they ended up with a lot of other stuff which at the time, just made money and so they plodded on. Now there is a change of direction with more focus on just the NatEx network. Mortons were acquired because of the larger purchase of Lucketts. Lucketts did, and still do, a lot of National Express work. Mortons just came as part of the bundle.
The Kings Ferry VIP somewhat similarly, Kings Ferry operated a good number of coaches in Kent, indeed the network was growing and so that was a lot of work. They had a vast commuter network too (while not the same, it is scheduled coaches so kind of fits the bill). The VIP stuff is contracts that they have to bid for and it's generally buying new vehicles. It's not the core NatEx business, get rid and let someone else deal with it. Plus with closing Gillingham, I presume space is at a premium.

GoAheads strategy on the other hand seems to be 'just expand'. Not sure what they gain from many of their expansions other than building a large empire and eventually becoming one of the biggest coach operators in the UK. The thing that GoAhead benefits from though, is letting businesses plod on. NatEx went for huge centralisation which led to the tours and day trips being merged into Touromo which failed massively. Everything now goes via National Express Transport Solutions (NETS) which makes it very much a corporate place to get coach hires. NETS feels almost like a broker and people don't want to go through brokers for coach hires. You go to Pulhams though and ask them for a private hire, sure they will sort it for you there and then. Yes they are part of a big group but they act independently. I believe this is where NatEx went wrong.

 

[Dfatcontroller]

You go to Pulhams though and ask them for a private hire, sure they will sort it for you there and then. Yes they are part of a big group but they act independently. I believe this is where NatEx went wrong.

Family feel with the big group security.

 

[Swanny200]

To be honest, as someone who knew a lot of the old Kings Ferry drivers and knew the company well growing up in Medway in the 90s it is a shame that it has changed in this way, same goes for Clarkes, both well known and respected companies that if NE gets its way, whos identities will disappear completely in the next 5 to 10 years.

 

[Titfield]

I think the logic at the time was that for some of the companies, the majority of the work was National Express. Therefore, saw it as a cheaper way of running the network, in house. Along with bringing some operators into NatEx, they ended up with a lot of other stuff which at the time, just made money and so they plodded on. Now there is a change of direction with more focus on just the NatEx network. Mortons were acquired because of the larger purchase of Lucketts. Lucketts did, and still do, a lot of National Express work. Mortons just came as part of the bundle.
The Kings Ferry VIP somewhat similarly, Kings Ferry operated a good number of coaches in Kent, indeed the network was growing and so that was a lot of work. They had a vast commuter network too (while not the same, it is scheduled coaches so kind of fits the bill). The VIP stuff is contracts that they have to bid for and it's generally buying new vehicles. It's not the core NatEx business, get rid and let someone else deal with it. Plus with closing Gillingham, I presume space is at a premium.

GoAheads strategy on the other hand seems to be 'just expand'. Not sure what they gain from many of their expansions other than building a large empire and eventually becoming one of the biggest coach operators in the UK. The thing that GoAhead benefits from though, is letting businesses plod on. NatEx went for huge centralisation which led to the tours and day trips being merged into Touromo which failed massively. Everything now goes via National Express Transport Solutions (NETS) which makes it very much a corporate place to get coach hires. NETS feels almost like a broker and people don't want to go through brokers for coach hires. You go to Pulhams though and ask them for a private hire, sure they will sort it for you there and then. Yes they are part of a big group but they act independently. I believe this is where NatEx went wrong.

I sort of get the logic of inhouse being cheaper than contract but the spree they went on meant they also bought a lot of work that was highly variable and required very skilled local management to keep rolling in profitably. The Touromo debacle is testimony to that. I am also reminded - albeit it was a long time ago - that Brian Souter was very critical of the companies Stagecoach acquired of operating coaches on day tours, holiday tours and private hires. Work again that was variable in demand and challenge to operate profitably.

If a big group acquires a local business how long will the skilled managers (often former owners) stay on to keep the business running before they move on to something new. I suspect that Go Ahead will learn that letting businesses plod on (at the same cost base) is incredibly difficult to do.

 

[lxfe_mxtterz]

Didn't feel it was worth starting a new thread to ask about this...

I'm planning to be travelling on the National Express route A2 from Paddington Station to Luton Airport on the 02:31 departure (02:15 from Victoria) in a couple of weeks on a Sunday.

Is anybody able to advise how busy the coach is likely to be at that time of night please?

It doesn't look like it's possible to reserve seats on this route(?) and I'm wondering whether it'd be better to go from Victoria instead to get a better chance of a decent seat before it fills up.

Many thanks.

 

[Teds]

I can't be specific about the A2. I have experience at Stansted which has a similar mix of air lines and routes as Luton. The early flights from the airport meant that the early morning coaches leaving London were very busy and would leave passengers without pre-booked tickets behind. The drivers would always ensure that there were enough seats for pre- booked passengers at all the stops - Golders Green etc.

In short, book a ticket for the journey you want and there will be a seat for you but if going to Victoria is not too difficult, I would do that. It won't affect the price of the coach ticket.

 

[Eyersey468]

I sort of get the logic of inhouse being cheaper than contract but the spree they went on meant they also bought a lot of work that was highly variable and required very skilled local management to keep rolling in profitably. The Touromo debacle is testimony to that. I am also reminded - albeit it was a long time ago - that Brian Souter was very critical of the companies Stagecoach acquired of operating coaches on day tours, holiday tours and private hires. Work again that was variable in demand and challenge to operate profitably.

If a big group acquires a local business how long will the skilled managers (often former owners) stay on to keep the business running before they move on to something new. I suspect that Go Ahead will learn that letting businesses plod on (at the same cost base) is incredibly difficult to do.

Going off topic here but it wouldn't exactly be at the same cost base though due to the bulk buying power of the big groups

 

[lxfe_mxtterz]

I can't be specific about the A2. I have experience at Stansted which has a similar mix of air lines and routes as Luton. The early flights from the airport meant that the early morning coaches leaving London were very busy and would leave passengers without pre-booked tickets behind. The drivers would always ensure that there were enough seats for pre- booked passengers at all the stops - Golders Green etc.

In short, book a ticket for the journey you want and there will be a seat for you but if going to Victoria is not too difficult, I would do that. It won't affect the price of the coach ticket.

Many thanks for your detailed response. Sounds like I shall be going from Victoria then.