National express West Midlands

[Samuel88]

How does National express maintain what is effectively a monopoly on bus services in the West Midlands, when in other much smaller cities such as Preston the largest operater has often been forced to give up some of their operations?

 

[Statto]

It's puzzling GM Buses were forced to split in the 90s as they were deemed to dominant, yet NXWM or West Midlands Travel as they were then, are just as big but allowed to stay as one company, there area is just as big as GMN Buses was.

 

[Robertj21a]

How does National express maintain what is effectively a monopoly on bus services in the West Midlands, when in other much smaller cities such as Preston the largest operater has often been forced to give up some of their operations?

There are still many other operators in the West Midlands, just not as many as previously. NX have an excellent network and reasonable fares which make it difficult for others to compete head on.

 

[RT4038]

There are still many other operators in the West Midlands, just not as many as previously. NX have an excellent network and reasonable fares which make it difficult for others to compete head on.

More importantly, they have a long standing (pre dereg) single operator travelcard with a huge take up, making it well nigh impossible for any other operator to successfully break into the market.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

It's puzzling GM Buses were forced to split in the 90s as they were deemed to dominant, yet NXWM or West Midlands Travel as they were then, are just as big but allowed to stay as one company, there area is just as big as GMN Buses was.

Have seen it attributed to the pragmatism of local politicians in the West Midlands who worked to maintain WMT as a single business.

Politicians in GM basically disagreed with the whole principle of the sale. Had they worked “with the grain” then things may have played out differently.

 

[Ginga]

I'm a Shareholder of both National Express and Rotala, unlike other operators such as Trent Barton . National Express does not engage in illegal antI competitive practice's.

 

[ValleyLines142]

I'm very impressed with the levels of service and the vehicles used with NXWM, however their drivers need a retrain in customer services. On the X12 to Sutton Coldfield, I got to the last stop to find myself trapped on the upper deck of the bus all because the driver didn't do any final checks to ensure any passengers were still on the bus! I had to exit using the emergency exit buttons at the front.

 

[Robertj21a]

I'm a Shareholder of both National Express and Rotala, unlike other operators such as Trent Barton . National Express does not engage in illegal antI competitive practice's.

Can you clarify which illegal practices you are referring to ?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm a Shareholder of both National Express and Rotala, unlike other operators such as Trent Barton . National Express does not engage in illegal antI competitive practice's.

It's good to hear that those two do not do so, but what practices do Wellglade engage in that they should not, and is there evidence?

 

[Bletchleyite]

How does National express maintain what is effectively a monopoly on bus services in the West Midlands, when in other much smaller cities such as Preston the largest operater has often been forced to give up some of their operations?

Were Preston Bus forced to give anything up on privatisation?

 

[Samuel88]

Were Preston Bus forced to give anything up on privatisation?

Didn't Stagecoach buy Preston Bus but then were forced by the competition and markets authority to sell up to Rotala

 

[RT4038]

Didn't Stagecoach buy Preston Bus but then were forced by the competition and markets authority to sell up to Rotala

Well yes, but that was because Stagecoach (owning the former Ribble operation in Preston) bought Preston Bus which reduced the potential of competition. West Midlands was privatised as one entity ( the politics of the time as mentioned in post #5 ) and have not tried to buy up any substantial competitor since. When National Express bought West Midlands Travel they did not own any other local bus operation in the vicinity.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Didn't Stagecoach buy Preston Bus but then were forced by the competition and markets authority to sell up to Rotala

Yes, but that was a bit different as Stagey already had operations. FWIW, though, I think that was the wrong move - Preston is too small for any serious on-road competition, and an integrated Stagecoach regional and local operation would have been very good for Preston.

The same sort of decision was made in the 80s/early 90s when Stagecoach attempted to buy Milton Keynes Citybus, and the outcome was years of mediocre Julian Peddle operations followed by the even more mediocre Arriva. A crying shame.

 

[RT4038]

Yes, but that was a bit different as Stagey already had operations. FWIW, though, I think that was the wrong move - Preston is too small for any serious on-road competition, and an integrated Stagecoach regional and local operation would have been very good for Preston.

The same sort of decision was made in the 80s/early 90s when Stagecoach attempted to buy Milton Keynes Citybus, and the outcome was years of mediocre Julian Peddle operations followed by the even more mediocre Arriva. A crying shame.

I suspect that the actual methods used to acquire Preston Bus resulted in the forced sell off, methods uncharacteristic of Stagecoach by that time.

 

[EnviroExplorer]

I'm very impressed with the levels of service and the vehicles used with NXWM, however their drivers need a retrain in customer services. On the X12 to Sutton Coldfield, I got to the last stop to find myself trapped on the upper deck of the bus all because the driver didn't do any final checks to ensure any passengers were still on the bus! I had to exit using the emergency exit buttons at the front.

Are you sure that was an NXWM bus ? Their X12 runs from Birmingham to Solihull via Chelmsley Wood and the Airport. Midland Classic (Red/yellow Buses) ran the X12 into Sutton Coldfield from Burton, which sadly ran for the last time yesterday

 

[Mwanesh]

I'm very impressed with the levels of service and the vehicles used with NXWM, however their drivers need a retrain in customer services. On the X12 to Sutton Coldfield, I got to the last stop to find myself trapped on the upper deck of the bus all because the driver didn't do any final checks to ensure any passengers were still on the bus! I had to exit using the emergency exit buttons at the front.

let me get this .The driver gets to a stop logs off and walks off while you are still upstairs.You then come down when he is gone.How many minutes did it take you to come down the stairs.

 

[ValleyLines142]

Are you sure that was an NXWM bus ? Their X12 runs from Birmingham to Solihull via Chelmsley Wood and the Airport. Midland Classic (Red/yellow Buses) ran the X12 into Sutton Coldfield from Burton, which sadly ran for the last time yesterday

Sorry, it was the X14 not the X12. It was because I was on bus 6812!

 

[Ginga]

It's good to hear that those two do not do so, but what practices do Wellglade engage in that they should not, and is there evidence?

You can go back to Trent's actions vs Camms during the Hucknall Bus War, Trent's fare to Hucknall was around 85 pence, Camm's come along and Trent dropped the price to 20 pence, they then ran buses for free! The law states you can only price match not undercut. It is also illegal under the 1985 Transport act to run loss making services, which wellglade did to Premiere with its Bargain bus and Kinchbus 9 running to Loughborough for £5 a week!

 

[RT4038]

You can go back to Trent's actions vs Camms during the Hucknall Bus War, Trent's fare to Hucknall was around 85 pence, Camm's come along and Trent dropped the price to 20 pence, they then ran buses for free! The law states you can only price match not undercut. It is also illegal under the 1985 Transport act to run loss making services, which wellglade did to Premiere with its Bargain bus and Kinchbus 9 running to Loughborough for £5 a week!

There is nothing in the 1985 Transport Act making running loss making services illegal. In other laws predatory pricing is illegal but special offers are not .........

 

[CM]

I'm very impressed with the levels of service and the vehicles used with NXWM, however their drivers need a retrain in customer services. On the X12 to Sutton Coldfield, I got to the last stop to find myself trapped on the upper deck of the bus all because the driver didn't do any final checks to ensure any passengers were still on the bus! I had to exit using the emergency exit buttons at the front.

If you knew it was the last stop, why did you not make your way downstairs and leave the bus? It's not the drivers resposibility to hand hold every passenger off the bus at every stop!

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

You can go back to Trent's actions vs Camms during the Hucknall Bus War, Trent's fare to Hucknall was around 85 pence, Camm's come along and Trent dropped the price to 20 pence, they then ran buses for free! The law states you can only price match not undercut. It is also illegal under the 1985 Transport act to run loss making services, which wellglade did to Premiere with its Bargain bus and Kinchbus 9 running to Loughborough for £5 a week!

Camms - must be c30 years ago!

 

[Bletchleyite]

You can go back to Trent's actions vs Camms during the Hucknall Bus War, Trent's fare to Hucknall was around 85 pence, Camm's come along and Trent dropped the price to 20 pence, they then ran buses for free! The law states you can only price match not undercut.

No, it doesn't, of course it doesn't. How would price competition work if you didn't undercut? The whole premise of price competition is that supplier Y comes along and sells product A for less than supplier X, so then supplier X has to cut their prices or differentiate in some other way (e.g. quality).

 

[ValleyLines142]

let me get this .The driver gets to a stop logs off and walks off while you are still upstairs.You then come down when he is gone.How many minutes did it take you to come down the stairs.

If you knew it was the last stop, why did you not make your way downstairs and leave the bus? It's not the drivers resposibility to hand hold every passenger off the bus at every stop!

I didn't realise it was the last stop. I'd never been to Sutton Coldfield before prior to that, so I was unfamiliar with the route/area. Also I was following a list of the stops on Google Maps and there was apparently one more stop which I believed to be the terminus. When the engine shut off I just assumed it was the stop/start technology normally found on E400MMCs. But then when I heard the doors shut that's when I realised so I went downstairs and exited myself. Anyway, regardless of that, it's a failure of care. On every other bus I've been on the driver will call LAST STOP. Nothing to do with hand holding every passenger....

 

[Robertj21a]

You can go back to Trent's actions vs Camms during the Hucknall Bus War, Trent's fare to Hucknall was around 85 pence, Camm's come along and Trent dropped the price to 20 pence, they then ran buses for free! The law states you can only price match not undercut. It is also illegal under the 1985 Transport act to run loss making services, which wellglade did to Premiere with its Bargain bus and Kinchbus 9 running to Loughborough for £5 a week!

It's called competition.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I didn't realise it was the last stop. I'd never been to Sutton Coldfield before prior to that, so I was unfamiliar with the route/area. Also I was following a list of the stops on Google Maps and there was apparently one more stop which I believed to be the terminus. When the engine shut off I just assumed it was the stop/start technology normally found on E400MMCs. But then when I heard the doors shut that's when I realised so I went downstairs and exited myself. Anyway, regardless of that, it's a failure of care. On every other bus I've been on the driver will call LAST STOP. Nothing to do with hand holding every passenger....

That's a bit of an issue with the new stop-start hybrids. Traditionally, engine off was always the indication of the end of the route (or of the driver requiring assistance to eject someone who is causing trouble via the "newspaper method"), and everyone understood that. Now engine off just means the bus has turned the engine off, hence the confusion.

I wonder if the London approach, which has been done for years, of flashing the lights several times, should be done elsewhere too? Everybody knows what that means in London, even if iBus is broken.

 

[Typhoon]

Have seen it attributed to the pragmatism of local politicians in the West Midlands who worked to maintain WMT as a single business.

I heard much the same when I was living in Birmingham.

The West Midlands has always been politically mixed; at the time there would have been enough moderate Conservative MPs (including one very prominent one) and realistic council leaders not to risk operations. There might also have been the fear of the impact on local employment (MCW) if WMT were broken up.

 

[tbtc]

How does National express maintain what is effectively a monopoly on bus services in the West Midlands, when in other much smaller cities such as Preston the largest operater has often been forced to give up some of their operations?

Dunno.

Sheffield (smaller than Greater Manchester/ West Midlands) was deemed to be too large a place for one company to have a monopoly when the authorities demanded that SYT/ South Yorkshire Transport sell off the operators that they had bought (sut/ Sheafline etc) around thirty years ago, but there's been one bus company operating the vast majority of commercial local services all the way from Wolverhampton to Coventry since deregulation.

(in the end, buying the other operators in Sheffield caused a gap in the market that was filled with the next generation of independents - Yorkshire Terrier, Sheffield Omnibus, Andrews etc - so by the time the case went through court appeals, there was no requirement to sell the operations that SYT had purchased)

But then nobody seemed to have a problem with First owning the former operations of Lowland Scottish, Eastern Scottish, Midland Scottish, Kelvin Scottish, Central Scottish and Strathclyde Buses - a huge chunk of central Scotland - so the idea of what constitutes a "monopoly" must change over time.

 

[carlberry]

Dunno.

Sheffield (smaller than Greater Manchester/ West Midlands) was deemed to be too large a place for one company to have a monopoly when the authorities demanded that SYT/ South Yorkshire Transport sell off the operators that they had bought (sut/ Sheafline etc) around thirty years ago, but there's been one bus company operating the vast majority of commercial local services all the way from Wolverhampton to Coventry since deregulation.

(in the end, buying the other operators in Sheffield caused a gap in the market that was filled with the next generation of independents - Yorkshire Terrier, Sheffield Omnibus, Andrews etc - so by the time the case went through court appeals, there was no requirement to sell the operations that SYT had purchased)

But then nobody seemed to have a problem with First owning the former operations of Lowland Scottish, Eastern Scottish, Midland Scottish, Kelvin Scottish, Central Scottish and Strathclyde Buses - a huge chunk of central Scotland - so the idea of what constitutes a "monopoly" must change over time.

I think there were some issues with the scottish purchases, certainly whewas n they also got Scotrail, however they were covered by various undertakings. The point with the west midlands is that, monoploy or not, that was how it was when the time came of tit to be set up as an arms length company and, therefore, could be sold off as such and the competition authorities couldn't effect that as it wasn't sold off to a group with any other local interests (coaches are assumed to be separate from the bus market). There have always been companies competing with it however none have got anywhere really and the majority haven't gone for quality when doing so! The quality contract which, I believe, covers most of central Birmingham now managed to move most of the remaining ones out because of the need to improve vehicle specs.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I think there were some issues with the scottish purchases, certainly whewas n they also got Scotrail, however they were covered by various undertakings. The point with the west midlands is that, monoploy or not, that was how it was when the time came of tit to be set up as an arms length company and, therefore, could be sold off as such and the competition authorities couldn't effect that as it wasn't sold off to a group with any other local interests (coaches are assumed to be separate from the bus market). There have always been companies competing with it however none have got anywhere really and the majority haven't gone for quality when doing so! The quality contract which, I believe, covers most of central Birmingham now managed to move most of the remaining ones out because of the need to improve vehicle specs.

Indeed Carl - there was an investigation into the purchase of SB Holdings (Strathclyde Buses) by First Group by the Monopolies and Mergers Commission. As a consequence of a subsequent investigation, there were various stipulations imposed and these were later expanded when they got the Scotrail franchise. However, as they had managed to fundamentally mismanage large parts of the business (e.g. East Lothian, Borders etc) and so lost much of their potential monopoly, and lost Scotrail, they were able to go to the MMC's successor (CMA) and successfully argue that they be released from those undertakings.

 

[JordyWM]

and long may NXWM continue to have such a service for the West Midlands.