Nationalisation?

[ST]

Morning

As somebody who is currently on the recruitment journey for a Trainee Driver, I wanted to ask those way more experienced about thoughts on Nationalisation and it's impact on a future career as a Driver. Some questions I have come up with are below:

How will a Nationalised Railway affect the future if I joined as a trainee and the Railways were nationalised in the meantime?

Would TUPE protect future pay and Final Salary Pensions? The TOCs I have seen offer a final salary pension scheme, but the public sector don't as such, could this change?

ASLEF is very much aligned to the Labour Government, do people think think would be a positive or negative if Railways were Nationalised ie. More support from Govt or More expectation from Govt for the Unions to conform?

I could go on and I am sure there will be more points raised. But in summary I am not experienced enough to know the impact on pay, pensions and thoughts of a possible future on a Nationalised Railway, so would appreciate any thoughts?

Thanks in advance.

 

[greatkingrat]

It would likely make very little difference. Pay would be protected. Any attempt to abolish final salary pensions would certainly lead to an all out national strike.

It could actually lead to pay rises for some drivers at lower-paid TOCs, as if it is all one company it would be difficult to justify the current variation in salary levels between different TOCs.

 

[Set_DRA]

Nationalisation would be very welcome here on the West Anglia!

 

[ST]

Thank you for your responses.

 

[GMT]

You may be interested in the thread below, if you haven't already seen it:

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/why-is-there-now-an-obsession-with-re-nationalisation.165875/

 

[sw1ller]

1) As answered above. Nationalisation would bring pay rises in line with the higher paid TOCs. You will be fully protected by law in regards your job.

2) the government are currently trying to F us all over regards our pension. It’s very quiet at them moment but it’s a fight that’s going to happen sooner rather than later.

3) ASLEF is a union, Labour were born from trade unions. A conservative government will NEVER, NEVER, NEVER side with the unions, it goes against their very nature. All they want is to make their mates rich at the expense of everyone else. You only have to look at the attitude differences between Wales and England. No government is perfect and I’m not saying labour are, I genuinely hate them all, but renationalisation would work well under one leadership, and not under the other. So it’s a hard one to answer. If anyone on here has a simple solution to it, I would suggest either it’s wrong, or they’re in the wrong job.

 

[ST]

Great points, thank you. I saw the other thread too thanks, just felt there wasn't anything specific about impact on a Trainee Driver.

 

[FOCTOC]

I shouldnt worry about Nationalisation - you nor I will ever live to see it, whichever bunch of scoundrels are running the country. I spoke to John Prescott back in 1996 one morning and asked him 'if Liebour win the next election will you be renationalising?' He replied 'yes, definately'. Well here we are 22 years later and still waiting. Bit like waiting for a Northern train really.

 

[ST]

Thank you!

 

[RBSN]

Bit like waiting for a Northern train really.

Absolutely. Northern are always delayed by late-running TPE Services!

 

[ST]

Absolutely. Northern are always delayed by late-running TPE Services!

haha

 

[RBSN]

haha

In all seriousness; i’ll Be shocked and surprised if the Railway re-nationalises in my lifetime and I’m 34.

Far too much money to lose.

 

[ST]

I should be ok then.....I am 43 years young

 

[Bletchleyite]

In all seriousness; i’ll Be shocked and surprised if the Railway re-nationalises in my lifetime and I’m 34.

Far too much money to lose.

It wouldn't cost anything. Just let the franchises expire and then vest them in DOR or equivalent. Network Rail is already nationalised.

 

[RBSN]

It wouldn't cost anything. Just let the franchises expire and then vest them in DOR or equivalent. Network Rail is already nationalised.

It won’t happen, no matter how much people screem for it. If it does i’ll eat my Sectional Appendix!

 

[MostlyHarmless]

It wouldn't cost anything. Just let the franchises expire and then vest them in DOR or equivalent. Network Rail is already nationalised.

Indeed - Labour says it would all happen within 5 years and there may not be any compensation to the owners of the TOCs. Having said all that, they need to get into power first!

 

[TractiveEffort]

Indeed - Labour says it would all happen within 5 years and there may not be any compensation to the owners of the TOCs. Having said all that, they need to get into power first!

It’s not just TOC’s, they don’t own any rolling stock (with very minor exceptions), there are ROSCO’s, FOC’s, maintainers, many subcontractor companies, lots of infrastructure maintenance is outsourced, many suppliers of specific railparts, it’s a very interwoven complex structure with contracts and franchises from several moths to 25+ years, to buy all of that out would cost Billions, to let some of those contracts run out would take so long, power would change hands again.

In this day and age, I’d be surprised if a government could take over that many companies and contracts with no compensation, especially if they were to keep us in Europe......

 

[Bletchleyite]

Indeed - Labour says it would all happen within 5 years and there may not be any compensation to the owners of the TOCs. Having said all that, they need to get into power first!

There would not need to be any compensation to the TOCs, as the TOCs have no interest in the franchise beyond its contracted end date.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It’s not just TOC’s, they don’t own any rolling stock (with very minor exceptions), there are ROSCO’s, FOC’s, maintainers, many subcontractor companies, lots of infrastructure maintenance is outsourced, many suppliers of specific railparts, it’s a very interwoven complex structure with contracts and franchises from several moths to 25+ years, to buy all of that out would cost Billions, to let some of those contracts run out would take so long, power would change hands again.

In this day and age, I’d be surprised if a government could take over that many companies and contracts with no compensation, especially if they were to keep us in Europe......

I'm not clear why they would necessarily take all those contracts in house. Public sector schools don't make their own bog roll, for instance. Most people would consider the railways nationalised if the TOCs were nationalised, to be honest. Obviously there would be the option to refinance rolling stock ownership, but there wouldn't have to be. And I very much doubt they would start making their own curling-up cheese butties again.

 

[Qwerty133]

There would not need to be any compensation to the TOCs, as the TOCs have no interest in the franchise beyond its contracted end date.

But multiple franchises have more than 5 years to run at any point (although it is far from inconceivable that certain franchisees would bite any governments hand off at the offer to be relieved of their contract for no financial penalty).

 

[MostlyHarmless]

There would not need to be any compensation to the TOCs, as the TOCs have no interest in the franchise beyond its contracted end date.

Well that assumes that Labour are happy to let the franchises run out. The TOCs have paid the government money to run them so it's not unreasonable to expect them to want some of it back if it's ended early, and I suspect that's what Labour mean when they say no compensation

 

[Bletchleyite]

Well that assumes that Labour are happy to let the franchises run out. The TOCs have paid the government money to run them so it's not unreasonable to expect them to want some of it back if it's ended early, and I suspect that's what Labour mean when they say no compensation

It may well be that they would be happy to give it up if they knew there would be no extensions nor concessions and thus no future in the industry.

 

[MostlyHarmless]

It may well be that they would be happy to give it up if they knew there would be no extensions nor concessions and thus no future in the industry.

Entirely possible I'd say but it's all just speculation of course, and how many political parties have made promises and failed to keep them?!

 

[TractiveEffort]

I'm not clear why they would necessarily take all those contracts in house. Public sector schools don't make their own bog roll, for instance. Most people would consider the railways nationalised if the TOCs were nationalised, to be honest. Obviously there would be the option to refinance rolling stock ownership, but there wouldn't have to be. And I very much doubt they would start making their own curling-up cheese butties again.

But that wouldn’t be renationalising the railways would it, that would be the government running the TOCs, quite different to what they are suggesting.

 

[MostlyHarmless]

But that wouldn’t be renationalising the railways would it, that would be the government running the TOCs, quite different to what they are suggesting.

I'm not sure that it is that much different - the fact that the rolling stock might be leased for a few years is neither here nor there is it? If the it all says 'British Rail' then the pubic will be happy I'm sure although there's no evidence that the trains will run any better of course! Labour haven't released any detail how they propose to do all of this yet and until there is a general election called, I don't think they will

 

[Bletchleyite]

But that wouldn’t be renationalising the railways would it, that would be the government running the TOCs, quite different to what they are suggesting.

To me the definition of "renationalising the railways" is "bringing operation of the railways into public ownership". Network Rail is already there, as to some extent is LNER though I believe some parts of the operation are contracted. What is your definition? I don't think it has to include recreating a monolithic BR; that is merely one way of achieving it. Plenty of Councils lease office buildings and cars, for instance, that's no different to the railway leasing rolling stock. You wouldn't say those Councils had been privatised.