Nationwide signal issue reported on 6th December

[infobleep]

Nationwide GSMR fault, nothing too bad

Given that is the case, I'm surprised the BBC started a live news feed on it. Perhaps someone expected much worse.

If it was a Sunday perhaps they wouldn't have done such a news feed, owing to less staffcworking on Sunday's as opposed to the news being any less important.

BBC News - Trains delayed due to 'nationwide fault' on communication system - BBC News

Trains delayed due to 'nationwide fault' on communication system

The delay was caused by drivers and signallers not being able to log-on to a communications system, Network Rail says.

www.bbc.co.uk

I also noticed the Govia Thameslink published advice aoeed people to travel on their Southern, Great Northern and Thameslink brands but not their Gatwick Express one. Legals aside, I'm not sure I've seen Gatwick Express stated as being excluded before during disruption.

Plenty of delays at Manchester Piccadilly

And yet when I checked no online disruption advice mentioning the train operators that use that station. Some others were mentioned but not all.

On LBC they were referencing some of the operators that did have disruption notice advice online.

The advice I saw covered 5 operators across 3 different pages, rather than one page covering 5 or 5 separate pages for each operator.

Scotrail, South Western Railway and the Elizabeth Line were on one. Govia Thameslink another. Southeastern another again.

 

[Flange Squeal]

Did the BBC report contain the typos as well?

I think that was probably the poster, however this part of the BBC’s report amused me. Been a while (2007?) since a train of a South Western franchise holder made it to Brighton!

Elsewhere, South Western Railway trains from Brighton to Southampton Central were only running to Bognor Regis or Chichester

Source: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cdx9v8qypv4o

 

[dosxuk]

Given that is the case, I'm surprised the BBC started a live news feed on it. Perhaps someone expected much worse.

It affected some BBC journalists getting into the London office, so it gets reported on as a major incident. If it was only affecting Northern, or it started after the morning rush hour, it probably wouldn't even have got a mention, other than a quick entry on the odd local page.

It's exactly the same with the weather. Gales / storms / snow knock out half the country - no mention. 10 flakes of snow inside the M25 and it's headline news.

 

[68000]

GSM-R is made up of a number of sub-systems and if the main problem was affecting registrations then it is likely to be the Fixed Terminal System (FTS) part of GSM-R that went down. The FTS aggregates the TD information and routes calls from the trainborne mobile to the correct signaller Dicora

 

[Belperpete]

It affected some BBC journalists getting into the London office, so it gets reported on as a major incident. If it was only affecting Northern, or it started after the morning rush hour, it probably wouldn't even have got a mention, other than a quick entry on the odd local page.

It's exactly the same with the weather. Gales / storms / snow knock out half the country - no mention. 10 flakes of snow inside the M25 and it's headline news.

Since when has the Cambrian been within the M25?

 

[infobleep]

It affected some BBC journalists getting into the London office, so it gets reported on as a major incident. If it was only affecting Northern, or it started after the morning rush hour, it probably wouldn't even have got a mention, other than a quick entry on the odd local page.

It's exactly the same with the weather. Gales / storms / snow knock out half the country - no mention. 10 flakes of snow inside the M25 and it's headline news.

Actually the other year there wqlss a sever storm affects parts of Scotland and the north West.

That was getting exetensive libe online coverage but it was tagged something like Edinburgh or Glasgow.

Whilst the North East was included, that doesn't change the fact it should have been tagged UK as it wasn't a Scotland only story.

BBC tags are a bit rubbish at times.

 

[D1537]

It affected some BBC journalists getting into the London office, so it gets reported on as a major incident. If it was only affecting Northern, or it started after the morning rush hour, it probably wouldn't even have got a mention, other than a quick entry on the odd local page.

BBC Radio 5 Live (the BBC's main radio news channel) and BBC Breakfast (which would have been doing the TV reporting this morning) are based in MediaCity in Salford.

 

[PZ 08895]

According to Journey Check, all Cambrian services were suspended, on both the mainline and Coast.

The lines that seem to have been significantly affected seem to be those with ETCS signalling, which relies on radio to transmit the movement authorities. Hence the Cambrian. Thameslink core. And Lizzy line to Heathrow. And of course significant problems on those routes would have had knock on effects on other routes.

That's odd as the GSM-R ETCS Data Only Radios (EDORs) used by ETCS fitted trains only need network registration (they connect to the network, just like when you switch on a mobile phone), they do not need Location Dependent Addressing registration which requires input of the train running number and signal berth which is then corelated against Train Describer data. The national issues appears to be with LDA used by the GSM-R voice radios - the system which routes a call from a driver to the signaller to the correct signaller based on the signalling berth the train is occupying at the time. The Thameslink Core still has conventional signals, so can be used without ETCS, though with some capacity / performance loss.

 

[MrJeeves]

That's odd as the GSM-R ETCS Data Only Radios (EDORs) used by ETCS fitted trains only need network registration (they connect to the network, just like when you switch on a mobile phone), they do not need Location Dependent Addressing registration which requires input of the train running number and signal berth which is then corelated against Train Describer data. The national issues appears to be with LDA used by the GSM-R voice radios - the system which routes a call from a driver to the signaller to the correct signaller based on the signalling berth the train is occupying at the time. The Thameslink Core still has conventional signals, so can be used without ETCS, though with some capacity / performance loss.

Is it possible that they were just acting out of caution, and not wanting to send trains down into Moorgate without knowing they can be signalled as intended?

 

[AdamWW]

That's odd as the GSM-R ETCS Data Only Radios (EDORs) used by ETCS fitted trains only need network registration (they connect to the network, just like when you switch on a mobile phone), they do not need Location Dependent Addressing registration which requires input of the train running number and signal berth which is then corelated against Train Describer data. The national issues appears to be with LDA used by the GSM-R voice radios - the system which routes a call from a driver to the signaller to the correct signaller based on the signalling berth the train is occupying at the time.

Maybe in the absence of signal post telephones the ability to have voice contact is required on the Cambrian even if the signalling system is still operational?

 

[dosxuk]

BBC Radio 5 Live (the BBC's main radio news channel) and BBC Breakfast (which would have been doing the TV reporting this morning) are based in MediaCity in Salford.

The main newsroom, and the location of the bosses and editors, is in London. They don't run a full duplicate operation in Salford for Breakfast, newsgathering is still run from London.

 

[Horizon22]

The main newsroom, and the location of the bosses and editors, is in London. They don't run a full duplicate operation in Salford for Breakfast, newsgathering is still run from London.

And many editors and reporters were caught up in disruption on London & SE metro operators hence why it became a bigger story.

I wouldn't be surprised if about 50% of all rail journeys (including Elizabeth line) in the country before 10am were in this area, even on a reduced Friday peak.

 

[PZ 08895]

Yes, maybe, there are no SPTs on the Cambrian. Moorgate/Northern City Lines and Thameslink Core are separate railways.

 

[LAX54]

Talk about single points of failure. A swap out of one card in one telecoms centre caused this? Are they saying that there is no resilience in the system?

Edit to add. Just seen the BBC report saying that there was a failover to a centre in Didcot. Not very successfully it seems.
I suspect that the DR plan is being updated right now.

You can 'test' the back up system week after week, and it will (and has) worked as required, but there is always that time (in every industry) that it will not take up the strain and stay silent, and we see it every day, with Banks / Shops / Mobiles / Internet etc

 

[diffident]

The main newsroom, and the location of the bosses and editors, is in London. They don't run a full duplicate operation in Salford for Breakfast, newsgathering is still run from London.

This is incorrect. I’m an editor, was working this morning, and based in Birmingham. Newsroom operations haven’t been reliant on Broadcasting House since pre-Covid. If you were to go there now, you’d find it largely empty due to dispersal to the regions and working from home.

Anyway, that’s drifting off-topic. When I passed through New Street at around 7am this morning, there was no hint of any problems, just the usual short delays.

 

[SYorksKent]

My experience is that, rather than being resolved, the problem is getting worse - had a lot more difficulty getting home on Southeastern out of Victoria tonight than I did on my inbound journey this morning.

 

[chuff chuff]

The last couple of trains I've worked Edinburgh/fife have logged on no problem.

 

[Horizon22]

My experience is that, rather than being resolved, the problem is getting worse - had a lot more difficulty getting home on Southeastern out of Victoria tonight than I did on my inbound journey this morning.

That must be completely separate then as the GSM-R issue was fixed nationwide this morning.

 

[chuff chuff]

That must be completely separate then as the GSM-R issue was fixed nationwide this morning.

Was still having problems mid afternoon Edinburgh/fife but seem to be resolved now.

 

[FGW_DID]

My experience is that, rather than being resolved, the problem is getting worse - had a lot more difficulty getting home on Southeastern out of Victoria tonight than I did on my inbound journey this morning.

The national wide GSM-R issue was reported as being resolved at 10:45 this morning, so quite possibly a completely seperate issue(s).

 

[flitwickbeds]

BBC Radio 5 Live (the BBC's main radio news channel) and BBC Breakfast (which would have been doing the TV reporting this morning) are based in MediaCity in Salford.

As is the One O'Clock News (TV) team.

The main newsroom, and the location of the bosses and editors, is in London. They don't run a full duplicate operation in Salford for Breakfast, newsgathering is still run from London.

Incorrect. As per...

This is incorrect. I’m an editor, was working this morning, and based in Birmingham. Newsroom operations haven’t been reliant on Broadcasting House since pre-Covid. If you were to go there now, you’d find it largely empty due to dispersal to the regions and working from home.

Anyway, that’s drifting off-topic. When I passed through New Street at around 7am this morning, there was no hint of any problems, just the usual short delays.

You don't even have to go there, you can see the lack of people in the background shots of the News Channel.

(Technical operator based in World Service Languages TV)

 

[nwales58]

... the Cambrian lines with their GSMR-dependedent signalling are completely shut.

Coast at least was running this morning. So far from completely shut.

 

[SYorksKent]

The national wide GSM-R issue was reported as being resolved at 10:45 this morning, so quite possibly a completely seperate issue(s).

But it was stated by automated announcements as the reason for the delays/cancellations tonight though

 

[TUC]

BBC Radio 5 Live (the BBC's main radio news channel) and BBC Breakfast (which would have been doing the TV reporting this morning) are based in MediaCity in Salford.

But draw a lot of their news stories from the teams in Broadcasting Hose.

 

[diffident]

But draw a lot of their news stories from the teams in Broadcasting Hose.

They really don't. It takes an understanding of the BBC News structure to get how we run our newsgathering. In this instance you are wrong @TUC, as i'm sure @flitwickbeds will concur

 

[SCDR_WMR]

Do you remember when we had this issue not long after the system was rolled out?

I joined afterwards, I've only used gsm-r. Was that similar?

 

[infobleep]

This is incorrect. I’m an editor, was working this morning, and based in Birmingham. Newsroom operations haven’t been reliant on Broadcasting House since pre-Covid. If you were to go there now, you’d find it largely empty due to dispersal to the regions and working from home.

Anyway, that’s drifting off-topic. When I passed through New Street at around 7am this morning, there was no hint of any problems, just the usual short delays.

Yesterday's coverage of the fault though kind of highlights my point. They started coverage at 7:45 so about an hour after the first disruption noitxes appeared.

Today there is a rare red weather warning for wind, which started at 3 am. The live coverage for this on the BBC News Web Site started at 6:45.

This is more important than the train outage yesterday but the luve reporting starts later. I might be wrong but I put it down to there being less staff overnight

This comes across to me as the live reporting of news isn't based just upon how important something is but how many staff are working at the time. So something less important might get more coverage purely due to when it occurs, compared to something more important.

Still I can't see today's storm being covered for less time than the national technical issue yesterday, as this storm isn't leaving us too soon.

I enjoy reading through the live news pages even after they have finished and wished the BBC wouldn't hide them, making them harder to find. They don't ao for the sports as it happened pages.

 

[jayah]

It affected some BBC journalists getting into the London office, so it gets reported on as a major incident. If it was only affecting Northern, or it started after the morning rush hour, it probably wouldn't even have got a mention, other than a quick entry on the odd local page.

It's exactly the same with the weather. Gales / storms / snow knock out half the country - no mention. 10 flakes of snow inside the M25 and it's headline news.

Works the other way too.

Minus 8 in a remote Scottish glen makes the front page of the Daily Mail, even though it will be Plus 3 or greater everywhere south of Stirling.

 

[flitwickbeds]

Yesterday's coverage of the fault though kind of highlights my point. They started coverage at 7:45 so about an hour after the first disruption noitxes appeared.

Today there is a rare red weather warning for wind, which started at 3 am. The live coverage for this on the BBC News Web Site started at 6:45.

This is more important than the train outage yesterday but the luve reporting starts later. I might be wrong but I put it down to there being less staff overnight

This comes across to me as the live reporting of news isn't based just upon how important something is but how many staff are working at the time. So something less important might get more coverage purely due to when it occurs, compared to something more important.

Still I can't see today's storm being covered for less time than the national technical issue yesterday, as this storm isn't leaving us too soon.

I enjoy reading through the live news pages even after they have finished and wished the BBC wouldn't hide them, making them harder to find. They don't ao for the sports as it happened pages.

At the risk of taking it further off topic, BBC News has someone able to do every function 24/7. The new structure is that the main newsroom operations change locations multiple times a day. Salford does the morning, London does the afternoon/early evening, Washington does a large chunk of the UK night, and Singapore does a little bit in the very early hours UK time.

So it's not so much lack of staff necessarily, but lack of people with specialist knowledge (and potentially interest/understanding of importance) of a UK-specific story.

As an example, an American editor working in the Washington newsroom, watching live feeds of some big waves in Aberystwyth, would have to choose how to prioritise that while also dealing with the assassination of a healthcare executive in New York, the aftermath of South Korea's recent political issues, rebels advancing on Syria's capital, and whether or not TikTok will be banned in the USA.

A couple of hours later that decision will rest with someone in the Singapore bureau, and a few hours after that the focus shifts to Breakfast, a much more domestic-focused outlook, from Salford, where some of the biggest international stories which might have been the headline for the last 8 hours, suddenly gets relegated to a 20 second mention at 20-past the hour.

We also need to remember that the (domestic) News Channel and the (international) World News, as well as the News website which used to operate separate domestic and international versions, are now one channel and one website since the last round of budget cuts. That means that the needs of the (advertiser-funded) international viewers who don't even know who Gregg Wallace is, has to be balanced with the needs of the (licence fee funded) domestic audience who would prioritise Storm Darragh over Damascus.

The Unions did warn that the merger of the two news channels wasn't going to work very well for precisely this reason.

 

[AdamWW]

At the risk of taking it further off topic, BBC News has someone able to do every function 24/7. The new structure is that the main newsroom operations change locations multiple times a day. Salford does the morning, London does the afternoon/early evening, Washington does a large chunk of the UK night, and Singapore does a little bit in the very early hours UK time.

So it's not so much lack of staff necessarily, but lack of people with specialist knowledge (and potentially interest/understanding of importance) of a UK-specific story.

As an example, an American editor working in the Washington newsroom, watching live feeds of some big waves in Aberystwyth, would have to choose how to prioritise that while also dealing with the assassination of a healthcare executive in New York, the aftermath of South Korea's recent political issues, rebels advancing on Syria's capital, and whether or not TikTok will be banned in the USA.

A couple of hours later that decision will rest with someone in the Singapore bureau, and a few hours after that the focus shifts to Breakfast, a much more domestic-focused outlook, from Salford, where some of the biggest international stories which might have been the headline for the last 8 hours, suddenly gets relegated to a 20 second mention at 20-past the hour.

We also need to remember that the (domestic) News Channel and the (international) World News, as well as the News website which used to operate separate domestic and international versions, are now one channel and one website since the last round of budget cuts. That means that the needs of the (advertiser-funded) international viewers who don't even know who Gregg Wallace is, has to be balanced with the needs of the (licence fee funded) domestic audience who would prioritise Storm Darragh over Damascus.

The Unions did warn that the merger of the two news channels wasn't going to work very well for precisely this reason.

Off topic - but utterly fascinating. Thanks!