Need some help to appeal penalty fare notice

[lizzyshi]

I have the split tickets to travel from Finsbury Park to Cambridge on Thameslink.

I bought open return ticket from Baldock to Cambridge by a mistake that it was the last saved search in my app so it was just a few clicked with save card went straight purchase. After that, I added Finsbury to Baldock anytime open return.

Because I purchased the Finsbury to Baldock anytime open return so I didn’t pay much attention to the intended travel time. So the Finsbury to Baldock is chosen a later intended travel time than from Baldock to Cambridge.

On ticket inspection, the ticket inspector insisted that my ticket from Baldock to Cambridge is no problem but I do not have the right ticket from Finsbury to Cambridge. Though I tried to explain that I have the split tickets. They are both anytime return and it shouldn’t matter the intended traveling time I randomly picked. He didn’t listen and gave me the penalty.

I have two reasons to appeal.

First, the penalty amount is incorrect as I checked on Thameslink that it says £100 plus single full fare. I have the valid ticket from Baldock to Cambridge. It is the Finsbury to Baldock the inspector was questioned. However, the penalty said no valid ticket from Finsbury to Cambridge. Hence 132.20. The single full fare from Finsbury to Baldock is 20.70. So I want to appeal incorrect amount of 132.20 instead of 120.70.

Second reason is I do have the any time return split ticket to cover my entire journey. It shouldn’t matter on the ticket what the intended traveling time is.

 

[WesternLancer]

I have the split tickets to travel from Finsbury Park to Cambridge on Thameslink. I bought open return ticket from Baldock to Cambridge by a mistake that it was the last saved search in my app so it was just a few clicked with save card went straight purchase. After that I added Finsbury to Baldock anytime open return. Because I purchased the Finsbury to Baldock anytime open return so I didn’t pay much attention to the intended travel time. So the Finsbury to Baldock is chosen a later intended travel time than from Baldock to Cambridge. On ticket inspection, the ticket inspector insisted that my ticket from Baldock to Cambridge is no problem but I do not have the right ticket from Finsbury to Cambridge. Though I tried to explain that I have the split tickets. They are both anytime return and it shouldn’t matter the intended traveling time I randomly picked. He didn’t listen and gave me the penalty. I have two reasons to appeal. First, the penalty amount is incorrect as I checked on Thameslink that it says £100 plus single full fare. I have the valid ticket from Baldock to Cambridge. It is the Finsbury to Baldock the inspector was questioned. However, the penalty said no valid ticket from Finsbury to Cambridge. Hence 132.20. The single full fare from Finsbury to Baldock is 20.70. So I want to appeal incorrect amount of 132.20 instead of 120.70. Second reason is I do have the any time return split ticket to cover my entire journey. It shouldn’t matter on the ticket what the intended traveling time is.

I think it would be helpful if you could also upload copies of the tickets you were travelling with on this occasion.

Also - did the train you were travelling on stop at the station where your tickets were split? (I am assuming this was Baldock)

 

[Watershed]

I have the split tickets to travel from Finsbury Park to Cambridge on Thameslink. I bought open return ticket from Baldock to Cambridge by a mistake that it was the last saved search in my app so it was just a few clicked with save card went straight purchase. After that I added Finsbury to Baldock anytime open return. Because I purchased the Finsbury to Baldock anytime open return so I didn’t pay much attention to the intended travel time. So the Finsbury to Baldock is chosen a later intended travel time than from Baldock to Cambridge. On ticket inspection, the ticket inspector insisted that my ticket from Baldock to Cambridge is no problem but I do not have the right ticket from Finsbury to Cambridge. Though I tried to explain that I have the split tickets. They are both anytime return and it shouldn’t matter the intended traveling time I randomly picked. He didn’t listen and gave me the penalty. I have two reasons to appeal. First, the penalty amount is incorrect as I checked on Thameslink that it says £100 plus single full fare. I have the valid ticket from Baldock to Cambridge. It is the Finsbury to Baldock the inspector was questioned. However, the penalty said no valid ticket from Finsbury to Cambridge. Hence 132.20. The single full fare from Finsbury to Baldock is 20.70. So I want to appeal incorrect amount of 132.20 instead of 120.70. Second reason is I do have the any time return split ticket to cover my entire journey. It shouldn’t matter on the ticket what the intended traveling time is.

Can you clarify when you bought the Finsbury to Baldock ticket - was it before you boarded the train or afterwards? If afterwards, how did you get through the barriers at Finsbury?

I can't quite read the time down on the Penalty Fare - is it 07:04? It would be helpful to see a copy of your tickets (with any barcode or reference/ticket number redacted) so we can cross reference this against the PF to see if it may explain what happened.

Which train did you get from Finsbury - did it stop at Baldock?

 

[lizzyshi]

Both tickets are before travel and anytime return. I bought Baldock to Cambridge first on randomly chose 7:47am. Then bought Finsbury to Baldock after found my mistake. The Finsbury to Baldock is randomly chose at 8:33am. The inspector onboarded at Letchworth Garden City and came to inspect me just about the train to arrive at Baldock. I showed him tickets on the App. This is LNER app where it shows past trip and upcoming trip. What inspector saw is because the Finsbury to Baldock is shown as upcoming journey in App he insisted I onboarded earlier. Though I explained that the ticket is anytime return. I onboarded on the 7:11am train which does pass by to Baldock at 7:47am. I have noticed that the ticket was given at 7:54am. Where is given is at Letchworth Garden. This can’t be correct as the train arrived at Baldock at 7:47am. If the train arrived at Baldock on time, which is 7 mins after the penalty notice given. With the ticket I got, I can’t be fined for invalid ticket. Either way I find this is not right. I attached the train ticket and the train time updated on app did not show a delay.

 

[Watershed]

If the tickets were bought (as in, payment went through and you received the confirmation) before you boarded the train then there was no offence committed and also no grounds for issuing the Penalty Fare.

Feel free to post a draft of your appeal here for us to review it. I'd include the following arguments/points:

• You had a set of valid tickets and produced them when inspected. They had been bought before boarding - presumably the time of purchase shown on the email and embedded in the barcode, as well as database records showing the barcode being scanned at the Finsbury barriers will back this up
• The tickets were valid for the train used. There is no requirement to take the chosen train when you're on an Anytime ticket - the ticket is valid at any time, on any train. The train stopped at Baldock so it was a valid combination of split tickets. Accordingly, you held a valid set of tickets and there was no ground for issuing a PF.
• The Penalty Fare was issued incorrectly because it gives the alleged reason "Electronic Ticket - Not Valid". Regulation 5(2)(b) of the PF Regs requires you to be provided in writing with "an explanation of why [you are] being charged a penalty fare", but this was not provided - the listed reason is not valid grounds for being issued with a PF. Tickets aren't "not valid" merely because they are in electronic format.
• The Penalty Fare was issued incorrectly because it wrongly states it was issued at Letchworth Garden City. In fact, it was issued after leaving Ashwell & Morden as proven by the time of issue relative to the train's live running.
• The Penalty Fare was issued incorrectly because it should have been issued to the next station unless you specifically requested it to be issued to Cambridge. The next station, as of the time of issue, would have been Royston. The amount and destination of the Penalty Fare are therefore both wrong.
• The Penalty Fare signage at Finsbury Park is non-compliant and therefore the signage requirements of Regulation 8 were not met. You will find an example of this kind of argument here (see posts #66 and #80); the situation at Finsbury Park is very similar to that at Tottenham Hale in my experience.

I appreciate that's a lot to take in - let me know if you have any questions about it.

 

[lizzyshi]

Thanks! It is comprehensive giving me many points to appeal. One question I am unsure is if I pay now I will get 50 discount. If I appeal, will it fall out 21 days and I will be facing more consequences if they reject my appeal.

 

[WesternLancer]

Thanks! It is comprehensive giving me many points to appeal. One question I am unsure is if I pay now I will get 50 discount. If I appeal, will it fall out 21 days and I will be facing more consequences if they reject my appeal.

an Appeal 'stops the clock' on the 21 day prompt payment discount whilst they consider the appeal. Or you can pay it and if the appeal is upheld it would be refunded. Do watch your calendar however.

Be prepared to have to go through 2 or 3 stages of the appeal process (tho given the advice above you would think this was a straightforward appeal to make - but I can't recall a case on here where an appeal for a Penalty Fare was ever granted at stage 1, sadly. Happy to stand corrected on that however)

I'm unsure as to why the seemingly incorrect fare was listed - which presumably effectively over charges you too. Maybe experts on here can offer a reason. I checked the fare you quoted and I agree with your price.

 

[Hadders]

I agree witrh @Watershed As long as the ticket from Finbury Park to Baldock was purchased before you boarded the train then your had a perfectly valid combination of tickets. The only other requirement is that the train has to call at the Baldock where you change from one ticket to the other but as far as I know every train between Finsbury Park and Cambridge calls at Baldock so this shouldn't be an issue.

One other point worth clarifying - how did you enter the station at Finsbury Park? Did you enter via the ticket barriers, if you did was the ticket scanned when you entered. If you arrived via the Underground and entered the National Rail platforms via the spiral staircase from the underground then you won't have passed any barriers and your ticket will not have been scanned. This isn't an issue - there's absolutely no requirement to scan your ticket but don't mention scanning your ticket at the Finsbury Park barriers if you didn't do this.

 

[lizzyshi]

I feel the inspector just wanted to fine the maximum he can and not happy with my argument with him. I pointed out I have a valid ticket and he agreed the ticket from Baldock to Cambridge is correct. And it is Finsbury to Baldock. When it comes to give penalty fare, he said I will be penalized for the whole journey. I said that is not right. He said I can appeal. Regards to the incorrect fare, @Watershed you mentioned it should have been issued to the next station, as of the time of issue. So it would be from Finsbury to Royston even the ticket inspector not agree my valid travel between Finsbury to Baldock?

 

[Watershed]

I feel the inspector just wanted to fine the maximum he can and not happy with my argument with him. I pointed out I have a valid ticket and he agreed the ticket from Baldock to Cambridge is correct. And it is Finsbury to Baldock. When it comes to give penalty fare, he said I will be penalized for the whole journey. I said that is not right. He said I can appeal. Regards to the incorrect fare, @Watershed you mentioned it should have been issued to the next station, as of the time of issue. So it would be from Finsbury to Royston even the ticket inspector not agree my valid travel between Finsbury to Baldock?

The inspector was completely wrong on all accounts, really. If your Finsbury to Baldock ticket hadn't been valid, and your Baldock to Cambridge ticket wasn't valid either, then the Penalty Fare should have been issued to Royston as the next stop - unless you specifically requested it to be issued to Cambridge. However, since the validity of your Baldock to Cambridge ticket wasn't in question, the Penalty Fare should only have been issued as far as Baldock anyway. And of course, since your Finsbury to Baldock ticket was valid based on what you've shared with us, it shouldn't have been issued in the first place.

I would definitely be raising a complaint after this is all resolved, because the inspector's conduct here was not acceptable. That said, the main thing for now is to get the Penalty Fare overturned.

 

[WesternLancer]

I feel the inspector just wanted to fine the maximum he can and not happy with my argument with him. I pointed out I have a valid ticket and he agreed the ticket from Baldock to Cambridge is correct. And it is Finsbury to Baldock. When it comes to give penalty fare, he said I will be penalized for the whole journey. I said that is not right. He said I can appeal. Regards to the incorrect fare, @Watershed you mentioned it should have been issued to the next station, as of the time of issue. So it would be from Finsbury to Royston even the ticket inspector not agree my valid travel between Finsbury to Baldock?

Might be worth you posting the draft of your appeal wording here for checking ahead of uploading it.

 

[lizzyshi]

Thanks! I will upload draft appeal later. I looked at the consequences if you appeal. I prepare to go through a few stages. It says if I fail second or final stage the TOC can bring to county court. I am wondering if I pay and then appeal. Would it mitigate that and I can get refund later?

 

[jfollows]

Thanks! I will upload draft appeal later. I looked at the consequences if you appeal. I prepare to go through a few stages. It says if I fail second or final stage the TOC can bring to county court. I am wondering if I pay and then appeal. Would it mitigate that and I can get refund later?

If you go through all the appeals processes and fail you still have the opportunity to pay at the reduced amount. And you won’t fail if you follow the advice here so you will pay nothing.

Court is only relevant if you lose all appeals and then do not pay. Not going to happen.

 

[WesternLancer]

If you go through all the appeals processes and fail you still have the opportunity to pay at the reduced amount. And you won’t fail if you follow the advice here so you will pay nothing.

Court is only relevant if you lose all appeals and then do not pay. Not going to happen.

Agreed. But yes if you do pay now and your appeal is successful iirc you would be refunded.

 

[Hadders]

I would not pay anything at this point. Appealing 'stops the clock' on the 21-day discounted period and, as noted above, even if all three appeals fail you would still be able to pay the Penalty Fare at the reduced rate.

If you follow our advice an appeal ought to be successful although experience tells us that the first and second appeals often fail and it only gets looked at properly at the third stage.

 

[lizzyshi]

So here is my draft. I am not sure about the last bit non-compliant signage.

Dear [Penalty Fare Appeals Team/To Whom It May Concern],

I am writing to formally appeal the Penalty Fare issued to me on [date] while traveling on Thameslink services. The Penalty Fare was issued incorrectly on several grounds, which I will outline below:

1. I purchased a valid set of ticket prior to boarding and valid for travel on the train in question. They were Anytime tickets allowing travel at any time and on any train stopping at Baldock.

2. Incorrect Reason Stated on the Penalty Fare Notice. The notice cites the reason for issuance as: "Electronic Ticket - Not Valid." However:

• Regulation 5(2)(b) of the Penalty Fares Regulations 2018 requires the written explanation provided to clearly state why a Penalty Fare is being charged.
• Tickets cannot be deemed invalid solely because they are in electronic format. This reasoning does not constitute valid grounds for issuing a Penalty Fare.

The failure to provide a valid explanation undermines the legitimacy of the Penalty Fare.

3. Inaccurate Details on the Penalty Fare Notice

The Penalty Fare incorrectly states that it was issued at Letchworth Garden City, when in fact it was issued after leaving Ashwell & Morden. This discrepancy is evidenced by the timing of the notice relative to the train's live running schedule.

4. Destination and Amount Incorrectly Specified

Under Regulation 9 of the Penalty Fares Regulations, the Penalty Fare should have been issued to the next station unless the passenger specifically requests an alternative. At the time of issue, the next station was Royston, not Cambridge. As such, the Penalty Fare notice specifies the incorrect destination and amount.



5. Non-Compliant Signage at Finsbury Park

The Penalty Fare signage at Finsbury Park does not comply with the requirements of Regulation 8. This regulation mandates that clear and compliant signage must inform passengers about Penalty Fares at stations where they are enforceable.

Given the multiple procedural and regulatory errors outlined above, I request that this Penalty Fare be canceled. I also ask that confirmation of cancellation be provided in writing.

 

[Haywain]

The Penalty Fare signage at Finsbury Park does not comply with the requirements of Regulation 8. This regulation mandates that clear and compliant signage must inform passengers about Penalty Fares at stations where they are enforceable.

If you are going to make this claim you will have to explain why it is not compliant.

 

[Watershed]

If you are going to make this claim you will have to explain why it is not compliant.

The Regulations set out that the burden of proof for disproving any allegation in a Penalty Fare appeal lies on the operator, not the passenger.

That said, we have seen that the appeals bodies often pay lip service to this burden of proof, at least for the first and second stages of appeal.

 

[Haywain]

The Regulations set out that the burden of proof for disproving any allegation in a Penalty Fare appeal lies on the operator, not the passenger.

Maybe but it's a bit wide ranging and I can't see it being accepted.

 

[Watershed]

Maybe but it's a bit wide ranging and I can't see it being accepted.

That's true. The OP certainly wouldn't hurt their argument if they substantiated it through pictures of the non-compliant signage at Finsbury Park - e.g. showing that it isn't "prominent" for every entrance, including coming off the Underground, and that the wording doesn't match the Regulations as per the thread cited above.

 

[MotCO]

So here is my draft. I am not sure about the last bit non-compliant signage.

Dear [Penalty Fare Appeals Team/To Whom It May Concern],

I am writing to formally appeal the Penalty Fare issued to me on [date] while traveling on Thameslink services. The Penalty Fare was issued incorrectly on several grounds, which I will outline below:

1. I purchased a valid set of ticket prior to boarding and valid for travel on the train in question. They were Anytime tickets allowing travel at any time and on any train stopping at Baldock.

2. Incorrect Reason Stated on the Penalty Fare Notice. The notice cites the reason for issuance as: "Electronic Ticket - Not Valid." However:

• Regulation 5(2)(b) of the Penalty Fares Regulations 2018 requires the written explanation provided to clearly state why a Penalty Fare is being charged.
• Tickets cannot be deemed invalid solely because they are in electronic format. This reasoning does not constitute valid grounds for issuing a Penalty Fare.

The failure to provide a valid explanation undermines the legitimacy of the Penalty Fare.

3. Inaccurate Details on the Penalty Fare Notice

The Penalty Fare incorrectly states that it was issued at Letchworth Garden City, when in fact it was issued after leaving Ashwell & Morden. This discrepancy is evidenced by the timing of the notice relative to the train's live running schedule.

4. Destination and Amount Incorrectly Specified

Under Regulation 9 of the Penalty Fares Regulations, the Penalty Fare should have been issued to the next station unless the passenger specifically requests an alternative. At the time of issue, the next station was Royston, not Cambridge. As such, the Penalty Fare notice specifies the incorrect destination and amount.



5. Non-Compliant Signage at Finsbury Park

The Penalty Fare signage at Finsbury Park does not comply with the requirements of Regulation 8. This regulation mandates that clear and compliant signage must inform passengers about Penalty Fares at stations where they are enforceable.

Given the multiple procedural and regulatory errors outlined above, I request that this Penalty Fare be canceled. I also ask that confirmation of cancellation be provided in writing.

I'm a firm believer in spoon-feeding the recipient so that all the info is available at their finger tips and they need to do very little of their own research.

So I would suggest you quote your reference number, and also quote the Regulations verbatim for each point you are making, either in the body of your letter or as an appendix.

 

[lizzyshi]

I am not sure if I shall put the last bit about the signage in my argument. I didn’t pay attention to the sign at the station. If I put it, what do I need to prove it? Shall I go tot Finsbury park to take a photo of the the sign?

 

[Watershed]

I am not sure if I shall put the last bit about the signage in my argument. I didn’t pay attention to the sign at the station. If I put it, what do I need to prove it? Shall I go tot Finsbury park to take a photo of the the sign?

That would be a good idea, yes.

 

[30907]

Your first reason for appealing is sufficient: your tickets were valid!

I would save the others for any later rounds, as they are increasingly technical.

Good luck!

 

[Hadders]

There's nothing wrong with appealing on the technicalities but I agree that the crux of the issue here is a valid combination of tickets was held. I would be very clear about this.

For example:

My journey was from Finsbury Park to Cambridge departing Finsbury Park at xx:xx on ddyymm
I held the following tickets:
Anytime Day Return Finsbury Park to Baldock ticket number xxxxx purchased at xx:xx on ddyymm
Anytime Day Return Baldock to Cambridge ticket number xxxxx purchased at xx:xx on ddyymm

Both tickets were purchased before the train departed FInsbury Park and the combination of tickets meets the requirements of Condition 14 of the NRCoT.

 

[lizzyshi]

Thanks! That’s precise clear!

 

[lizzyshi]

So I appealed on 12th Feb and I didn't receive any communication. I checked on penaltyservices website. It showed appeal on hold - waiting on information from train operating company. I read it will take 21 days and it is 16 days already. I would expect that I will hear back from them soon?

 

[WesternLancer]

So I appealed on 12th Feb and I didn't receive any communication. I checked on penaltyservices website. It showed appeal on hold - waiting on information from train operating company. I read it will take 21 days and it is 16 days already. I would expect that I will hear back from them soon?

IIRC the 21 days is the deadline you have in which to submit an Appeal or pay the Penalty Fare and benefit from the 50% prompt payment reduction I believe. It's not necessarily a time limit in which they will decide your appeal. However, whilst an Appeal is underway the clock is stopped on the 21 day prompt payment period - but it will restart as soon as the appeal decision is notified to you.

If you are worried about this you could pay the Penalty Fare. If your appeal is successful you would be refunded. Paying it should not terminate your Appeal (so long as they got your appeal to start with and you used the correct process to submit your appeal - ie you didn't write to customer services or something like that, but used the instructions on the Penalty Fare you were given about how to appeal)

 

[lizzyshi]

Yes, I think I will make a payment. penalty services does not have any contact number. Is it the only way I can find the status of my ticket is via their website? How long do they normally respond?

 

[WesternLancer]

Yes, I think I will make a payment. penalty services does not have any contact number. Is it the only way I can find the status of my ticket is via their website? How long do they normally respond?

Not sure on this - Penalty Services is I think the independent body that runs the appeals process. They will not have an interest in people ringing them to debate their Penalty Fares so I guess if they had a phone number they would probably make it a premium rate one....

If people here suggest your Appeal has a good chance of success then you may have to be prepared to go through all three stages of the process to get the outcome deserved. Obviously this is tedious.

They probably do need the railway to respond on the basis that the Appeals service will not have sufficient skilled knowledge of the ticketing rules given their complexity - and that could take some time - it's hard to know how long.

If you do decide to pay make sure you keep clear proof of payment (screne shot each stage for example) and that you monitor your Appeal outcome so you can progress it with help from here as clearly having gone to the trouble of appealing you do not want them to mistakenly terminate the appeal in error or some such.

Obviously people here will give you advice as things progress.