Network North Electrification Projects

[Bald Rick]

Was any reusable work done for Hull electrification - it was looked at both for Transpennine and a private Hull Trains deal wasn’t it?

Hull trains didn’t do much work. AIUI NPR have studied it though. Hence why it was announced!

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

Sure, but rail privatisation has a lot to do with the electrification time lag. British Rail steadily electrified as much as it could afford in a logical order, but privatisation put long term rail investment planning on hold for 20 years. At least Manchester/Liverpool/Blackpool got done and showed Northern politicians what they should be wishing for.

True up to a point. Privatisation wasn't even a real idea until Major became PM in 1990. So 16 years of sitting on hands right there. And in the end NWEP was only authorised when it was realised that the Thameslink project was going to displace a large number of serviceable EMUs and Adonis/Labour didn't think early scrapping was a good idea. And that had a knock-on effect of reducing the size of a proposed purchase of DMUs (mostly for GW & Northern) which then spooked the leasecos who suspected that any future DMUs would have short lives so their lease rates would have to be higher. Such are the nonsenses which arise from the lack of a coherent long-term strategy for electrification (and almost anything else rail-related).

 

[Halifaxlad]

Great thread, but please can you put space in between anything that's listed!

All electrification schemes involve route upgrades of some kind, which won't have been considered in yesterday's announcements.

Presumably that's why Hull has been referred to as an 'upgrade'

I expect for York-Leeds and Manchester-Huddersfield to be built and for the Government to quietly drop Dewsbury-Huddersfield, along with any new station shown in the Network North proposal.

Why would they quietly drop part of TRU which is also part of NPHR ?

If you look closely you will see two things:

1. The word could is used a lot
2. All the projects are subject to a business case. None of them are guaranteed. In fact I would say very few will have a positive BCR. For example Leamside has already been dropped.

Whereabouts does it indicate this ?


Overall its pretty good, although I would have also included Ravensthorpe to Church Fenton via Wakefield and Castleford since its a Transpennine diversionary route. (24 miles) and South Elmsall to Monk Fryston (10 miles) and reinstate the North chord at South Elmsall so that we could have a diversionary route between Donny and Colton. Interestingly the lines do overlap with the other options for Northern Powerhouse Rail so I suppose that will be why.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Does Sheffield-Hull have to be via Goole - it could be Doncaster-Selby (which would make more sense so London trains could use it)? Northern battery bimodes could then do Hull-Goole-Doncaster
Was any reusable work done for Hull electrification - it was looked at both for Transpennine and a private Hull Trains deal wasn’t it?

Certainly as far as Selby was seriously looked at.

 

[Arkeeos]

Why would they quietly drop part of TRU which is also part of NPHR ?

No reason to go to dewsbury when the route is diverted from Huddersfield to Bradford to Leeds via a bypass along the M62 is my guess.

 

[Halifaxlad]

No reason to go to dewsbury when the route is diverted from Huddersfield to Bradford to Leeds via a bypass along the M62 is my guess.

I think your jumping to conclusions, just because Bradford is now to get a direct fast service to Manchester via Huddersfield doesn't mean all Leeds to Manchester services are going to be rerouted via Bradford!

TRU is still very much on!

 

[clawton]

The document doesn't commit to anything specific in the Bristol area. The commitment is:



It then continues with some ideas on projects they might like to spend money on:



There's no indication of costs for any of the above, or what the priorities of the West of England Combined Authority would be.

Plus considering the state of the works at Temple Meads, electrification surely can't begin for several more years until all that's out of the way.

 

[450.emu]

If you look closely you will see two things:

1. The word could is used a lot
2. All the projects are subject to a business case. None of them are guaranteed. In fact I would say very few will have a positive BCR. For example Leamside has already been dropped.

They announced some projects that are already complete.

And the money is not available, its money that would be borrowed for HS2. So what we have is a commitment to look at a number of schemes and, if the BCR is positive, borrow a load of money to build them.

It's all been done on the back of a fag packet.

Rishi doesn't smoke and is looking to ban that soon, so it might have been written on a tiny Post-It note

This is just electioneering as others jostle for the top job. I'd love it if he at least used a train once in a while (gravy trains not included). These promises will make as much progress as an obese passenger trying to walk down the aisle of a packed Class 720, I'm afraid

 

[YorkRailFan]

Why would they quietly drop part of TRU which is also part of NPHR ?

Because it is over-budget and the Tories are cutting funding wherever they an for what they call "short term gains."

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Plus considering the state of the works at Temple Meads, electrification surely can't begin for several more years until all that's out of the way.

Given that Bristol East Jn and the Filton 4-tracking has already been done, what's left to do at TM?
Are there any bridges still to lift on the route via Bath?

Welcome to the forum by the way.

 

[The exile]

Given that Bristol East Jn and the Filton 4-tracking has already been done, what's left to do at TM?
Are there any bridges still to lift on the route via Bath?

Welcome to the forum by the way.

Well, the trainshed has been full of scaffolding since January 2021 for a start and progress seems to be slow…

 

[nr758123]

No reason to go to dewsbury when the route is diverted from Huddersfield to Bradford to Leeds via a bypass along the M62 is my guess.

Huddersfield to Bradford to Leeds, even assuming it is practicable, would be slower than existing timings.

 

[Snow1964]

Well, the trainshed has been full of scaffolding since January 2021 for a start and progress seems to be slow…

There was a recent local newspaper article (can't find it now) that suggested the roof works at Bristol Temple Meads won't be fully finished until January 2026, but that may include parts outside the train shed, or final completion.

I think all the bridge works and lowering track through tunnels is already done. There are already some masts erected for couple of miles west of Chippenham. From memory some masts foundations exist too (without masts).

As the job was previously paused rather than cancelled, not sure if there is stack of masts that are ready to be installed or if they have been used elsewhere (or worst still sold for scrap) in meantime.

Ironically the line between Bath and Bristol is closed this weekend for Network Rail drainage works, but presumably Network Rail are not responsive enough to mobilise for doing extra work and resuming electrification mast preparation

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I think the Series 1 stuff was sold off, as NR had no projects to use them.
MML and TRU, and the Valleys work, are using a different design, although some components are the same.
Hardly any of the new projects will need more than 100mph spec, I think the GW 125mph finishes at Box tunnel.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Plus considering the state of the works at Temple Meads, electrification surely can't begin for several more years until all that's out of the way.

Welcome to the forum. Your first post I see. I think a huge amount of work has already been done at Temple Meads. So it could be done in 3 years or less possibly.

 

[D6975]

I think all the bridge works and lowering track through tunnels is already done. There are already some masts erected for couple of miles west of Chippenham. From memory some masts foundations exist too (without masts).

There are indeed many mast foundations. There was a depot at Saltford from which the piledriving operation was based. Hence the Saltford - Keynsham area has many foundations already in situ.

 

[snowball]

Ironically the line between Bath and Bristol is closed this weekend for Network Rail drainage works, but presumably Network Rail are not responsive enough to mobilise for doing extra work and resuming electrification mast preparation

Very reasonably they'll be waiting for authorisation from the DfT to start work - which won't come from a conference speech in which no timescales were mentioned. It could still be years coming.

 

[Bostart73]

I have to admit I'm particularly thrilled at the proposal for the Holyhead line being wired up although I do think the length of Sunak's big list sounds more idealistic than realistic.

 

[Agent_Squash]

Remember the 40 new hospitals promised by Boris Johnson which then had to be turned into any new building at any hospital to try to get to 40? I sadly do not believe any of these lists of anything we can think of. Afterall, if they were such good projects, the current government have had 13 years to do them.

I was really hoping to see Windermere on the list, but I assume left off as that's a LibDem seat (Tim Farron) so not useful for votes.

Windermere is moving to Copeland constituency at next election iirc, which is held by Tory Trudy Harrison.

It’s more useful than Rishi realised….

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

I have to admit I'm particularly thrilled at the proposal for the Holyhead line being wired up although I do think the length of Sunak's big list sounds more idealistic than realistic.

The 1B suggested might get you upto the Welsh border

 

[WesternBiker]

If you look closely you will see two things:

1. The word could is used a lot
2. All the projects are subject to a business case. None of them are guaranteed. In fact I would say very few will have a positive BCR. For example Leamside has already been dropped.

Whereabouts does it indicate this ?

I too noticed the word "could" cropping up everywhere. (It is used 15 times.) The reference to business cases is in footnote 40 at the bottom of page 24:

"As usual, individual projects referenced in this document will be subject to the approval of business cases. The following numbers are in cash prices unless explicitly stated, based on indicative profiling assumptions. Individual outputs, particularly journey times, are indicative and may evolve during scheme development."

That gives an awful lot of wriggle room - and the Treasury free rein to curtail and prune the list of projects as they go along.

Don't get me wrong - I'd love to see all these projects done, but the fact we have an election likely in the next year, means any incoming Government is likely to look at all of these commitments afresh anyway, given that implementation of most of this is unlikely to have made a lot of progress before then. I'm also disappointed to see fund that were committed to rail set aside for road projects.

I'm even more disappointed to see these funds put towards filling pot holes, which to my mind should have come from regular road maintenance expenditure (which is not classified as "capital spending" in Government accounting).

 

[snowball]

I have to admit I'm particularly thrilled at the proposal for the Holyhead line being wired up although I do think the length of Sunak's big list sounds more idealistic than realistic.

I think "cynical" would be a more appropriate word than "idealistic".

 

[Sonik]

Windermere is moving to Copeland constituency at next election iirc, which is held by Tory Trudy Harrison.

It’s more useful than Rishi realised….

Trudy Harrison isn't standing for the next election, so perhaps it could fall the other way.

 

[QueensCurve]

The North West electrification (Liverpool/Manchester/Preston/Blackpool) was a no-brainer in-fill scheme and was a natural follow-on from completion of the WCML, in 1974!

British Rail intended to wire Blackpool to Manchester following on from the Weaver to Glasgow scheme in 1974. What put the kibosh on it for decades was the cost of the Farnworth Tunnel works.

And a whole new fleet of bi modes as Chester to Warrington isn't included, with a large number of 197's becoming surplus. As I say, does that look like a joined up plan to you?

North Wales Coast electrification makes little sense without extension to both Warrington and Crewe. That forked tongue will add cost and probably put the kibosh on the whole project.

Sunak secretly announced singling of North Wales Main Line!

Source for that?

 

[dggar]

British Rail intended to wire Blackpool to Manchester following on from the Weaver to Glasgow scheme in 1974. What put the kibosh on it for decades was the cost of the Farnworth Tunnel works.

North Wales Coast electrification makes little sense without extension to both Warrington and Crewe. That forked tongue will add cost and probably put the kibosh on the whole project.

Source for that?

Surely it makes absolutly NO SENCE without extension to Warrington and Crewe

 

[HSTEd]

Source for that?

It was a bitter joke that it was the only way £1bn was going to get close to electrifying all the way to Holyhead. So far as I know he has not announced that.

 

[Arkeeos]

Surely it makes absolutly NO SENCE without extension to Warrington and Crewe

it says in the document:

"We will also provide an unprecedented £1 billion investment to fund the electrification of the North Wales Main Line, bringing parts of North Wales within an hour of Manchester. We will oversee more punctual, reliable journeys on the 126-mile route between Crewe, Warrington, Chester, Llandudno and Holyhead, where ferry services run to Dublin."

So it does run to Crewe and Warrington, how on earth they think they are getting that done for £1 billion is another question entirely. Its almost like they made it all up.

 

[The exile]

. Its almost like they made it all up.

Surely not!

 

[Halifaxlad]

I have to admit I'm particularly thrilled at the proposal for the Holyhead line being wired up although I do think the length of Sunak's big list sounds more idealistic than realistic.

I think "cynical" would be a more appropriate word than "idealistic".

Interesting comments especially since pretty much the electrification schemes are basically the fourth Northern Powerhouse Rail option i.e. the 'Potential wider network'

If it was just a random list of schemes then surely the Harrogate line that already has a positive BCR would have been included!

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

If it was just a random list of schemes then surely the Harrogate line that already has a positive BCR would have been included!

No need, after a brief dalliance with the LDs Harrogate is once again a fairly safe Tory seat!