Network North Electrification Projects

[Class 170101]

Please explain how electrifying Felixstowe-Ipswich would not eliminate diesel haulage on West Coast container trains? Are they still going to diesel haul under the wires to/from Felixstowe?

Would need to electrify the destination though. Some of them are not wired either. So the freight just continues as diesel all the way.

 

[Killingworth]

Would need to electrify the destination though. Some of them are not wired either. So the freight just continues as diesel all the way.

At present freight operators are going back to diesel because the cost of electric power is too expensive.

 

[The Planner]

They had a good route for freight but they ripped it up has they didn't want to change from 1500dc to 25kv.
Not believing anything the daft say about the railways in the north anymore.

Could Woodhead take W10 containers? And how would they get there from Felixstowe etc?

 

[Djgr]

I started this thread for a rational discussion on the electrification projects announced ("We will electrify...") by the Prime Minister on October 4.
I didn't expect a fantasy debate on lines totally separate from those announced.

You may not believe government announcements but it's all we have, until there is a change of government.
Don't you believe he actually cancelled HS2 Phase 2? - I'm sure he did.
There is, apparently, £36 billion to spend on the alternatives, of which, if you believe him, £1 billion is for North Wales electrification.

Given the context of the current government, its competence, trustworthiness and likely longevity, anything and everything within this thread is purely speculative and should be located accordingly within the forum.

 

[Cestrian21]

Given the context of the current government, its competence, trustworthiness and likely longevity, anything and everything within this thread is purely speculative and should be located accordingly within the forum.

Absolutely this. It's hard to see how we can treat any of these announcements as anything other than a fantasy wish-list unless/until it has a Business Case in place.

 

[Killingworth]

Could Woodhead take W10 containers? And how would they get there from Felixstowe etc?

The Woodhead route was indeed designed to carry freight, primarily coal in 4 wheeled wagons (as was the Hope Valley). None of the Pennine tunnels wete built with modern containers in mind and nor was the rest of our infrastructure. Improving it all to take modern containers is desirable but needs joined up planning.of practical priorities.

 

[Bald Rick]

Electrifying the major freight flows would with the use of much more powerful electic locos allow freight to better keep out of the way of passenger trains as well

The timetable is designed to do that. Electrifying freight could, in some cases, enable shorter passenger journey times and/or more capacity (if it is needed where it can be released).

I wonder if a say 90mph 1000tonne frieght is practical.

If it was, we would have had it already (assuming you mean freight in the conventional sense. We already have 100mph freight with parcels services).

Why are we electrifying at all then.

Because there are good (very good) business cases for doing so. Just not many for freight only lines.

Please explain how electrifying Felixstowe-Ipswich would not eliminate diesel haulage on West Coast container trains?

You didn‘t say that. You said:

electrify Felixstowe to Ipswich which would eliminate diesel locos on freight using the WCML

Theres a lot of freight on the WCML that doesn’t go to or from Felixstowe. And even that which does go to or from Felixstowe, much of it has a non electrified line the other end. Hams Hall, Lawley St, Birch Coppice, East Mids Gateway for example.

Why do you agree with me about Felixstowe-Ipswich in post #117 after insultingly questioning my understanding of economics?

Because from the numbers I’ve seen there is, probably, a case for Felixstowe to Ipswich. Also London Gateway, and maybe Nuneaton to Birmingham. Not much else though with primarily freight benefits. At £12m/mile of double track railway, you need to save a lot of diesel and carbon, and lots of other benefits, to make electrification pay.

 

[ac6000cw]

I wonder if a say 90mph 1000tonne freight is practical.

Here are a few recent discussions about running higher speed intermodal trains:

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/high-speed-intermodal-flat-wagons.234279/
https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...omotives-e-g-classes-99-93-88-be-used.251127/
https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/class-93-tri-mode-loco.210779/post-6375057
The gist of it is that the technology isn't a problem (provided you can get enough power from the OHLE), it's economics i.e. making at least some profit out of it.

A pair of 90's (if allowed to use full power, which they're not at present) would give you 10000hp/7.7MW, and a pair of 88s or 93s even more, and 90mph capable intermodal flats (with payload weight restrictions) have been around for years.

As an example, note that a 16-coach Caledonian Sleeper (based on vehicle weight listed on Wikipedia) is nearly 700 tonnes trailing load, so a 23-coach sleeper would be around 1000 tonnes (and would be shorter than many intermodal trains).

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Because from the numbers I’ve seen there is, probably, a case for Felixstowe to Ipswich. Also London Gateway, and maybe Nuneaton to Birmingham. Not much else though with primarily freight benefits. At £12m/mile of double track railway, you need to save a lot of diesel and carbon, and lots of other benefits, to make electrification pay.

I did see the Acton Bank link had come back into consideration for wiring.
This was not just for freight, but to permit some GWR diversions into Euston during Old Oak Common (GW station) construction.
It's only half a mile or so, but highly strategic.

 

[class ep-09]

I did see the Acton Bank link had come back into consideration for wiring.
This was not just for freight, but to permit some GWR diversions into Euston during Old Oak Common (GW station) construction.
It's only half a mile or so, but highly strategic.

GWR 800’s are bio-modal .

 

[Bald Rick]

I did see the Acton Bank link had come back into consideration for wiring.
This was not just for freight, but to permit some GWR diversions into Euston during Old Oak Common (GW station) construction.
It's only half a mile or so, but highly strategic.

Indeed, and not much use for freight! There‘s loads of train paths in the timetable using that link, but maybe only 10 each day that actually run that could swap to electric traction. And that assumes the terminals the other end are electrified, which in most cases they are not, as they are stone terminals and need top access.

I agree it needs doing though, as it’s the sort of link that will find new uses when electrified, eg for empty passenegr trains.

GWR 800’s are bio-modal .

Class 387s / Class 345s aren’t…

 

[stssts1985]

Some of these are never going to happen!!!
While we're on the topic, we should electrify
-Cleethorpes - Barton on Humber
- Middlesborough to Whitby
- Stockport to Stalybridge
- the Brigg line (high speed ready)

 

[jonesy3001]

They could redouble the track between guide bridge and stockport and rebuild the junction near ardwick so they can stop reversing trains at ashburys, now that hs2 isn't coming to manchester.

 

[eldomtom2]

Electrifying a long route principally for the benefit of freight will have decarb benefits, but in the scheme of UK emmissions, it eont even register. The taxpayer will get far, far better Carbon reduction benefits from paying for improving home insulation, or heat pumps, or home generation systems,or ICE car scrappage, etc.

Is your suggestion that freight rail should not bother with decarbonisation? If it is, I doubt the industry will be seeing any more government handouts in the future...

 

[The Planner]

I did see the Acton Bank link had come back into consideration for wiring.
This was not just for freight, but to permit some GWR diversions into Euston during Old Oak Common (GW station) construction.
It's only half a mile or so, but highly strategic.

It was to get Crossrail stock around OOC when the line is shut for HS2. Im not convinced we will see GWR in Euston.

They could redouble the track between guide bridge and stockport and rebuild the junction near ardwick so they can stop reversing trains at ashburys, now that hs2 isn't coming to manchester.

There are hundreds of schemes that would be worth spending cash on than that.

 

[Bald Rick]

Is your suggestion that freight rail should not bother with decarbonisation?

Not at all. My point is that there are far better uses of scarce capital funds than electrifying lightly used routes where freight may be a beneficiary.

If it is, I doubt the industry will be seeing any more government handouts in the future...

I’m flattered that you think me commenting on a public forum will influence government policy. It hasnt worked to date.

 

[class ep-09]

Indeed, and not much use for freight! There‘s loads of train paths in the timetable using that link, but maybe only 10 each day that actually run that could swap to electric traction. And that assumes the terminals the other end are electrified, which in most cases they are not, as they are stone terminals and need top access.

I agree it needs doing though, as it’s the sort of link that will find new uses when electrified, eg for empty passenegr trains.



Class 387s / Class 345s aren’t…

And why would they need to go to Euston ( even if there was a capacity ) ?
They are to terminate at Ealing Broadway , turn around at Acton West and go back towards Reading.

 

[The Planner]

And why would they need to go to Euston ( even if there was a capacity ) ?
They are to terminate at Ealing Broadway , turn around at Acton West and go back towards Reading.

Its a serious proposition from GWR. The paths have been looked at.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I could imagine the West Country sleeper using Euston, if there's room, though that wouldn't need wires.
Heathrow Express passengers wouldn't thank you for terminating at Ealing Broadway.

 

[eldomtom2]

Not at all. My point is that there are far better uses of scarce capital funds than electrifying lightly used routes where freight may be a beneficiary.

What do you suggest for the problem of freight rail decarbonisation then?

I’m flattered that you think me commenting on a public forum will influence government policy. It hasnt worked to date.

You misinterpreted my point. My point was that if freight rail loses its perception as the "environmentally friendly" method of freight transportation, it will lose government support.

 

[Bald Rick]

My point was that if freight rail loses its perception as the "environmentally friendly" method of freight transportation, it will lose government support.

What government support is that?

What do you suggest for the problem of freight rail decarbonisation then?

In the short to Medium term, Class 93 and Class 99. Coming to a railway near you soon.

 

[Midland Man]

What government support is that?

Considerable grant assistance through Mode Shift Revenue Support for example.

 

[fishwomp]

Could Woodhead take W10 containers? And how would they get there from Felixstowe etc?

Think we have been here before: you can't reopen Woodhead because you'd need to remove the strategic store of old steam engines.

 

[Bald Rick]

Considerable grant assistance through Mode Shift Revenue Support for example.

Fair point, although many would quibble about the size of thst.

 

[eldomtom2]

In the short to Medium term, Class 93 and Class 99. Coming to a railway near you soon.

I thought we'd established their diesel/battery modes were only good for last-mile journeys?

 

[ac6000cw]

I thought we'd established their diesel/battery modes were only good for last-mile journeys?

Where was that established?

 

[GRALISTAIR]

I thought we'd established their diesel/battery modes were only good for last-mile journeys?

Did we?

Where was that established?

I agree that links etc to where it has been established would be good please.

 

[eldomtom2]

Where was that established?

Did we?

I agree that links etc to where it has been established would be good please.

Sorry, I'm fairly certain I read this somewhere on this forum but can't find where now that I look for it.

In any case, using diesel engines for the last mile is definitely a stopgap solution.

 

[ac6000cw]

In any case, using diesel engines for the last mile is definitely a stopgap solution.

We don't have any electric locos with just 'last mile' diesel capability in the UK (a mid-1960s class 73 is more capable than that, and an 88 even more so). I think if you were designing 'last mile' capability into an electric loco now, I'd expect it to be battery powered.

ROG with the cl. 93 and GBRf with the cl. 99 are being pragmatic about what's possible to fit in a UK size and weight loco at present, to get locos that can do what they need for their business in the near future (at a cost that's affordable) while making it 'greener'. Perfection can be the enemy of progress...

 

[eldomtom2]

We don't have any electric locos with just 'last mile' diesel capability in the UK (a mid-1960s class 73 is more capable than that, and an 88 even more so).

That definitely hasn't been the impression I've gotten from discussions on this forum!