Network Rail bets on mindfulness (and err...Greggs) to lure commuters back

[Bletchleyite]

WFH: This needs to be taxed in some way. Even city centres are now being affected by lack of footfall. If this means ending WFH tax relief and encouraging companies to get people back in the office at lease part-time then it needs to be done. Otherwise, public transport as a whole will continue to suffer.

No.

The thing at the top of the environmental "travel hierarchy" is "not travelling at all" (then foot, then bicycle, then public transport, then car, then air; you could argue that walking/cycling is preferable to not travelling due to the health benefits, but certainly not any further down). Under no circumstances should we be implementing any form of taxation or other measure that discourages the avoidance of travel in general.

Businesses need to adapt to this, e.g. the likes of Pret need to open cafes in the suburbs instead of the centre, aimed at home workers wanting a change of scene for lunch. And public transport needs to adapt to a market where travel is discretionary. The railway does not have a right to the captive primarily London commuter market it has enjoyed for the last however-long.

 

[LittleAH]

No.

The thing at the top of the environmental "travel hierarchy" is "not travelling at all" (then foot, then bicycle, then public transport, then car, then air; you could argue that walking/cycling is preferable to not travelling due to the health benefits, but certainly not any further down). Under no circumstances should we be implementing any form of taxation or other measure that discourages the avoidance of travel in general.

Businesses need to adapt to this, e.g. the likes of Pret need to open cafes in the suburbs instead of the centre, aimed at home workers wanting a change of scene for lunch. And public transport needs to adapt to a market where travel is discretionary. The railway does not have a right to the captive primarily London commuter market it has enjoyed for the last however-long.

Yes.

If the economy suffers due to WFH, then in should be taxed. Easy thing is to remove WFH tax relief, which isn't a tax anyway. That can then be redistributed to other areas of the economy that are suffering as a result.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes.

If the economy suffers due to WFH, then in should be taxed. Easy thing is to remove WFH tax relief, which isn't a tax anyway. That can then be redistributed to other areas of the economy that are suffering as a result.

The economy is not suffering, it is changing. Change is a given and should not be resisted. It was changing anyway, COVID just sped it up.

What tax relief do you refer to?

 

[JamesT]

The economy is not suffering, it is changing. Change is a given and should not be resisted. It was changing anyway, COVID just sped it up.

What tax relief do you refer to?

Presumably https://www.gov.uk/tax-relief-for-employees/working-at-home

You may be able to claim tax relief for additional household costs if you have to work at home on a regular basis, either for all or part of the week. This includes if you have to work from home because of coronavirus (COVID-19).

People like Martin Lewis were publicising it quite a bit earlier in the pandemic, especially the flat rate that doesn’t require receipts.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Presumably https://www.gov.uk/tax-relief-for-employees/working-at-home

People like Martin Lewis were publicising it quite a bit earlier in the pandemic, especially the flat rate that doesn’t require receipts.

I doubt many people bother unless already completing a tax return. The time required to complete a tax return (or the cost of an accountant to do so) would be prohibitive, and the sum is very small.

Also "You cannot claim tax relief if you choose to work from home.", which takes even more people out, as if they have access to an office they are choosing to work from home.

By all means abolish that, but it is going to do nowt for the railway.

 

[JamesT]

I doubt many people bother unless already completing a tax return. The time required to complete a tax return (or the cost of an accountant to do so) would be prohibitive, and the sum is very small.

Also "You cannot claim tax relief if you choose to work from home.", which takes even more people out, as if they have access to an office they are choosing to work from home.

By all means abolish that, but it is going to do nowt for the railway.

You don’t need a tax return, it’s a fairly simple web form which HMRC use to adjust your personal allowance.
In normal times most people won’t be eligible, but as everyone has been mandated to work for, home for the last two years…

 

[3rd rail land]

I doubt many people bother unless already completing a tax return. The time required to complete a tax return (or the cost of an accountant to do so) would be prohibitive, and the sum is very small.

Also "You cannot claim tax relief if you choose to work from home.", which takes even more people out, as if they have access to an office they are choosing to work from home.

By all means abolish that, but it is going to do nowt for the railway.

Indeed. I'm eligible as I work from home as per my employment contract and the office is not readily accessible being 42 miles away but don't bother claiming it. I do a tax return each year by the way.

Getting rid of this very small financial benefit isn't going to make people suddenly opt to go to the office regularly.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Indeed. I'm eligible as I work from home as per my employment contract and the office is not readily accessible being 42 miles away but don't bother claiming it. I do a tax return each year by the way.

Getting rid of this very small financial benefit isn't going to make people suddenly opt to go to the office regularly.

And it's so small that moving that money elsewhere is not going to have any substantial effect.

We need a discussion nationally on what the future of town and city centres is, but chain retail and office working isn't it any more. Just as it wasn't 150 years ago.

 

[Steddenm]

Managed to get hold of a Greggs code earlier for a free coffee. Took it into my local Greggs (currently in Lancashire) and she looked at me as if I had three heads and was yellow. She said she had never seen one before and the code she had to type into the till didn't work.

 

[Termy]

Managed to get hold of a Greggs code earlier for a free coffee. Took it into my local Greggs (currently in Lancashire) and she looked at me as if I had three heads and was yellow. She said she had never seen one before and the code she had to type into the till didn't work.

That fills me with confidence, given I planned to use mine tomorrow... XD

 

[Ex-controller]

As much as I’m not a fan of working at home, I’m absolutely not in favour of using taxation to penalise it. At a time of rising living costs more generally, it would be grossly unfair, not to mention unpopular.

The way forward if we want some return to commuting by rail is incentivising through lower costs. I’d accept however that the commuter rail market is not going to be the same as it was for some time. The removal of peak time fares would probably be the best option as far as I can see.

 

[Deltic1961]

The comments on the BBC link just show how crazy this scheme is and how out of touch rail operators and the government really are.

P.S. Thanks Scotrail for putting my fares up again this week.

 

[xotGD]

I've signed up and got myself a code for a free coffee. Hurray!

Nearest outlet is 175 miles away. Boo!

So if you don't commute into London, tough.

 

[mralexn]

WFH: This needs to be taxed in some way. Even city centres are now being affected by lack of footfall. If this means ending WFH tax relief and encouraging companies to get people back in the office at lease part-time then it needs to be done. Otherwise, public transport as a whole will continue to suffer.

When I work from home though I'm using my electricity, my gas etc, plus I usually walk to work when I am in the office so I don't see how a tax would really be fair.

(I'm also one of those people who makes my own sandwiches and batch cooks so there is literally no benefit to the "High Street" from me either.

 

[Bletchleyite]

As much as I’m not a fan of working at home, I’m absolutely not in favour of using taxation to penalise it. At a time of rising living costs more generally, it would be grossly unfair, not to mention unpopular.

The way forward if we want some return to commuting by rail is incentivising through lower costs. I’d accept however that the commuter rail market is not going to be the same as it was for some time. The removal of peak time fares would probably be the best option as far as I can see.

We don't want more commuting by rail if businesses don't want it. It is for businesses to decide the most effective way of using their staff, in conjunction with those staff and any directly relevant Unions.

The railway does not have a fundamental right to exist. It exists to serve transport need. If that need goes away, it either changes to serve other transport need or it closes.

This is a bit like a macro-level discussion on Stranraer-Girvan.

 

[GodAtum]

What are the rules for the Pure coffee? is it 1 free per day?

 

[Ostrich]

I'm not a commuter personally, but I should think that if you are a commuter from my neck of the woods, on the WoE line west of Salisbury, a decent train service might be the first priority ......

 

[JonathanH]

I'm not a commuter personally, but I should think that if you are a commuter from my neck of the woods, on the WoE line west of Salisbury, a decent train service might be the first priority ......

Equally it isn't a very good use of tax revenues to spend them on running empty trains. There needs to be some short term pain (even evidence of overcrowding) before services can be restored to March 2020 levels and the staff need to be available. A return to the office is going to be very gradual for many.

 

[robbeech]

This all feels like a bit of a “laughing in the face of the people funding our existence” type of thing. They’ve seriously angered a LOT of people by doing this and I fully understand why. They’ve had abysmal service levels, overcrowded trains, poor reliability, non existent customer service, rejection of claims, and no sign of any of that ever improving. Increased costs, and now, significant reduction in their rights to compensation and they offer them a singular cup of coffee. It’s offensive and it shows beyond all doubt the attitude the railway has to its customers.

Managed to get hold of a Greggs code earlier for a free coffee. Took it into my local Greggs (currently in Lancashire) and she looked at me as if I had three heads and was yellow. She said she had never seen one before and the code she had to type into the till didn't work.

Get that lady a job on the railway sharpish. Can’t waste talent like that she will fit right in*


* I suspect it’s not her fault she hasn’t been told about it.

 

[Grumpy Git]

Just happened to be working next to a Greggs.

One free cappuccino duly served (saving £1.70).

 

[BPN2022]

The

No.

The thing at the top of the environmental "travel hierarchy" is "not travelling at all" (then foot, then bicycle, then public transport, then car, then air; you could argue that walking/cycling is preferable to not travelling due to the health benefits, but certainly not any further down). Under no circumstances should we be implementing any form of taxation or other measure that discourages the avoidance of travel in general.

Businesses need to adapt to this, e.g. the likes of Pret need to open cafes in the suburbs instead of the centre, aimed at home workers wanting a change of scene for lunch. And public transport needs to adapt to a market where travel is discretionary. The railway does not have a right to the captive primarily London commuter market it has enjoyed for the last however-long.

Spot on here I think. WFH benefits a lot of people and has changed the market, and whether people like it or not will not go anywhere in the near future. No matter how much businesses such as coffee shops in London want it to return. Local coffee shops in other places such as market towns, could be booming as people spend locally.

The railway now needs to adapt. It’s a change in the market. It happens from time to time. However, I am just not sure how it can adapt it to it.

Clearly Tues, Weds and Thurs are the more popular days for commuting, with hybrid working in at most offices. But these are already covered by the new flexi season ticket.

Leisure travel on weekends seems to have already adapted to the change in market though - I notice Avanti/LNER have stopped doing advance singles on weekends, or certainly there seem to be less available. This probably claws some £ back.

What else can the railway do? It’s tough for sure.

 

[ohgoditsjames]

The obvious would be cheaper fares, people that don't use rail or are reluctant to using it only ever hear about how the fares go up each year.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Spot on here I think. WFH benefits a lot of people and has changed the market, and whether people like it or not will not go anywhere in the near future. No matter how much businesses such as coffee shops in London want it to return. Local coffee shops in other places such as market towns, could be booming as people spend locally.

Exactly this. If I lived in a typical small commuter town, I might now go out for a nice lunch to change the scenery, helping local business. While there, I might spend money in a local butcher, baker and greengrocer for this evening's meal. And all within the 9am-5pm opening hours such businesses prefer, too. The benefits to local businesses are potentially great.

Why should I sob for Starbucks and its tax avoidance?

(Central Bletchley doesn't quite have that appeal! I do sometimes pop out for lunch in CMK but it's too far to get there and back in a lunch hour any way but driving)

 

[Iskra]

The

Spot on here I think. WFH benefits a lot of people and has changed the market, and whether people like it or not will not go anywhere in the near future. No matter how much businesses such as coffee shops in London want it to return. Local coffee shops in other places such as market towns, could be booming as people spend locally.

The railway now needs to adapt. It’s a change in the market. It happens from time to time. However, I am just not sure how it can adapt it to it.

Clearly Tues, Weds and Thurs are the more popular days for commuting, with hybrid working in at most offices. But these are already covered by the new flexi season ticket.

Leisure travel on weekends seems to have already adapted to the change in market though - I notice Avanti/LNER have stopped doing advance singles on weekends, or certainly there seem to be less available. This probably claws some £ back.

What else can the railway do? It’s tough for sure.

Drop the fares to stimulate and even create demand. Once people are enticed back, slowly raise them.

It’s better to sell an empty seat for -or even below- cost price, than for it to remain empty and get £0. If you sell a seat you may even make add on sales on catering etc.

Outlandish thought I know, but what the railway need to do is; compete. Silly gimmicks are not going to cut it.

 

[JonathanH]

The obvious would be cheaper fares, people that don't use rail or are reluctant to using it only ever hear about how the fares go up each year.

The obvious would be higher fares to bring in more revenue from those still travelling. Which costs of the railway are reducing now they are spread over fewer travellers?

Clearly I don't want this but it is not all down to fare levels.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Clearly I don't want this but it is not all down to fare levels.

Some of it is. £400 return from Manchester to London is simply not reasonable. It is considerably cheaper to hire a car and drive. That is ludicrous.

A more reasonable peak-time return fare from Manchester to London would be about £150.

 

[37424]

Yes.

If the economy suffers due to WFH, then in should be taxed. Easy thing is to remove WFH tax relief, which isn't a tax anyway. That can then be redistributed to other areas of the economy that are suffering as a result.

Rubbish we shouldn't be trying to push people not to work from home just for the benefit of City Centre coffee shops and public transport. The economy will have to adjust as required and lets be very clear about WFH was happening before covid its not an invention of covid just an acceleration.

Recently a coffee shop has opened near where I live and apparently its doing very well benefiting from some WFH workers.

The whole business of the daily commute was madness anyway if we can reduce it both on Public Transport and Private Transport it will be a benefit in a number of respects.

 

[JonathanH]

Some of it is. £400 return from Manchester to London is simply not reasonable. It is considerably cheaper to hire a car and drive. That is ludicrous.

A more reasonable peak-time return fare from Manchester to London would be about £150.

Yes, I'll concede that some is. However, would there really be 800 people travelling instead of 300 within a reasonable timeframe if that happened?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes, I'll concede that some is. However, would there really be 800 people travelling instead of 300 within a reasonable timeframe if that happened?

That's a difficult one, but what is for sure is that a large proportion of those 300 have gone because they've discovered that Zoom works as well. So, railway, next move is yours?

If it's not even going to try, it is difficult to support it receiving subsidy, because it's just wasting money.

 

[Iskra]

The obvious would be higher fares to bring in more revenue from those still travelling. Which costs of the railway are reducing now they are spread over fewer travellers?

Clearly I don't want this but it is not all down to fare levels.

That would be a great way of alienating more customers.

What is needed is a wholesale review of walk up ticket fares to sensible levels, the removal of peak pricing where there is no longer peak demand and then the use of Advance tickets to fill empty seats. Once a line starts experiencing crowding issues, prices can then be raised until loadings are healthy. A line by line approach needs to be taken.

If the weekends are now the peak, perhaps that can be reflected in the fare structure, but correspondingly the weekday morning peak should therefore be abolished where it is no longer appropriate.

The current situation of pricing customers off the railway and providing a skeleton service at best, yet simultaneously wondering where the passengers have gone and questioning why revenue is down, is frankly ridiculous.