Network Rail CP7 Plans

[The Planner]

From what i've heard it'll be Warrington first.

Other way around, North to South.

So we could possibly see semaphore signalling and AB working on main lines into 2028-2029....

You'll see it for a lot longer than that.

 

[Class 170101]

You have to be amused that the nation most desperate to get back into the EU is Scotland but in their delivery plan they have this to say about ETCS.



Personally i believe we will see this to be a very prescient decision given the vast costs involved to do the first 100miles of ECML the railway has more urgent use of the limited investment available to it to just keep itself open to traffic these days ie drainage and earthworks.

However I would have thought the Class 380s and Class 85s would be ETCS capable, or suitablke for easy fitment already. It will be the older fleets like Class 156 / 158 and 170s that could be the problem, the Class 170s along with the Class 334s would hang around the longest.

The Class 156 / 158 / 318 / 320s I would expect to go by no later than 2035 to 2040.

 

[IanXC]

Other way around, North to South.

Any information on whether this will go into Manchester ROC or whether we will see Carlisle PEBBLE?

 

[The Planner]

Any information on whether this will go into Manchester ROC or whether we will see Carlisle PEBBLE?

Manchester as far as I know.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

The wider Network Rail position is that resignalling by conventional means is now "unaffordable", and ETCS will do the job at lower cost.
ETCS-fitted trains will in any case be working into Scotland from the ECML and WCML at no cost to them.
All to be proved, of course.

To make it affordable in future it must involve no expenditure on over engineered lineside signals especially gantries

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Any information on whether this will go into Manchester ROC or whether we will see Carlisle PEBBLE?

To make it affordable in future it must involve no expenditure on over engineered lineside signals especially gantries

Preston and Warrington going to Manchester I understand- but Carlisle?

 

[Freightmaster]

Preston and Warrington going to Manchester I understand- but Carlisle?

Out of curiosity, where else could it be controlled from?



MARK

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Motherwell perhaps?

 

[HSTEd]

Personally i believe we will see this to be a very prescient decision given the vast costs involved to do the first 100miles of ECML the railway has more urgent use of the limited investment available to it to just keep itself open to traffic these days ie drainage and earthworks.

It's a very brave decision.
It's essentially a bet that cost escalation in signalling projects will not continue - which would mean they were about the only part of the railway that wasn't escalating in cost!

Beyond that we must consider not just monetary value, Network Rail's position is that the resignalling capability to do the work conventionally does not exist. There is simply far too much work to do and noone to do it.

They will save a penny now and will be in real trouble when they have a collapsing signalling system that they can't replace.

 

[MadMac]

Motherwell perhaps?

It’s been closed for several years, was migrated to West of Scotland Signalling Centre.

 

[A330Alex]

The push for life extensions of existing assets over replacement (structures and signalling in particular) may create some not so fun cliff edges in the future where numerous, major capital projects are simultaneously required.

Understandable given the current state of budgets of course.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Preston and Warrington going to Manchester I understand- but Carlisle?

Cardiff controls places as far away as (almost) Nantwich and Colwyn Bay, which are 125 miles as the electron flies, much further by rail.
York will control from King's Cross (175 miles).
Rugby controls 130 miles of the WCML.
Carlisle-Manchester is just over 100 miles (Glasgow is a bit less at 90 miles).

 

[ac6000cw]

York will control from King's Cross (175 miles).

It already does control Kings Cross to Grantham (with conventional signalling).

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

It's a very brave decision.
It's essentially a bet that cost escalation in signalling projects will not continue - which would mean they were about the only part of the railway that wasn't escalating in cost!

Beyond that we must consider not just monetary value, Network Rail's position is that the resignalling capability to do the work conventionally does not exist. There is simply far too much work to do and noone to do it.

They will save a penny now and will be in real trouble when they have a collapsing signalling system that they can't replace.

ETCS still needs track circuits/axle counters, interlockings and points and in place of lineside signals you need the extra lineside communication assets instead so all you save is the signal structures and civil engineering which isn't signal engineering capability.

 

[HSTEd]

ETCS still needs track circuits/axle counters, interlockings and points and in place of lineside signals you need the extra lineside communication assets instead so all you save is the signal structures and civil engineering which isn't signal engineering capability.

Well we already have functionally continuous communications with trains through GSM-R, so I'm not sure you actually need more lineside communications assets.

You also save a vast rats nest of lamp proving equipment scattered all over the place in lots and lots of location cabinets! Especially with the proliferation of banner repeaters on the modern railway, all of which need proving and are not typically located near axle counters. And that stuff most certainly consumes signal engineering capability.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Well we already have functionally continuous communications with trains through GSM-R, so I'm not sure you actually need more lineside communications assets.

You also save a vast rats nest of lamp proving equipment scattered all over the place in lots and lots of location cabinets! Especially with the proliferation of banner repeaters on the modern railway, all of which need proving and are not typically located near axle counters. And that stuff most certainly consumes signal engineering capability.

Fair point although modern LED heads already have the lamp proving incorporated in them now. As i say the real prize here is to remove lineside signalling as thats become very expensive especially in multitrack locations with the very heavy engineering now necessary for signal gantries and until NR is confident to go straight to that solution its going to remain expensive.

 

[IanXC]

Preston and Warrington going to Manchester I understand- but Carlisle?

Preston and Warrington I think are a shoe in for Manchester.

Carlisle though, with the addition of the Cumbrian Coast and the Settle and Carlisle, I don't think that clear. Given that the assumptions on the capacity of each ROC have gone very wrong given the changes in the capacity of each workstation and the rules about each signaller's workload.

If it weren't for the prexisting work I'd suggest that Carlisle, Cumbrian Coast and S&C should be controlled by Tyneside ROC (with its area plus Middlesbrough and Hartlepool) but that ship sailed long ago.

 

[Elecman]

Preston and Warrington going to Manchester I understand- but Carlisle?

Carlisle covers from just North of Carnforth to just North of Quintinshill

 

[Lloyds siding]

They're going to paint stuff, rather than let it rust until it falls down.

Life extension of lots more structures instead of complete renewal of a few.

I think this means they are going to paint over the rust rather than replace anything.

 

[450.emu]

I think the person who wrote it is playing buzzword bingo.

Our metallic structures on the Lea Valley Lines out of Liverpool Street date back to 1959 in places (Bethnal Green to Enfield Town)... will they be revitalised?

 

[bengley]

Carlisle would be an ideal candidate to be kept local in the current location, just 'upgraded' to control the new signalling

 

[PM77]

It already does control Kings Cross to Grantham (with conventional signalling).

And a large part of Yorkshire. Less than half of the workstations in York ROC are ECML.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

I think this means they are going to paint over the rust rather than replace anything.

I hope not! Paint sticks (adheres) to rust, but rust does not adhere to metal. Unless of course this remark is firmly tongue in cheek!

 

[snowball]

A new document about climate adaptation plans by Network Rail Scotland and ScotRail.

Press release with video:

Scotland’s Railway gets climate ready

Scotland’s Railway has today (Wednesday, April 17) published its Climate Ready Plan which sets out how the nation’s railways will respond to the challenges of our changing climate over the next five years and beyond.

www.networkrailmediacentre.co.uk

Quote from press release:

Scotland’s Railway has today (Wednesday, April 17) published its Climate Ready Plan which sets out how the nation’s railways will respond to the challenges of our changing climate over the next five years and beyond.

Published jointly by Network Rail Scotland and ScotRail the 109-page plan will inform investment across the railway’s infrastructure during the next five years from April 2024 to March 2029.

The plan sets out the actions Scotland’s Railway will take to improve the resilience of the railway against physical changes in the climate. It includes plans for direct investment in infrastructure as well as introducing additional climate science and adaptation capabilities to strengthen the industry’s decision-making.

The plan also lays the groundwork for development of a longer-term adaptation strategy for managing the risks associated with changes in Scotland’s climate.

Alan Ross, Network Rail Scotland’s director of engineering and asset management, said: “We know that our climate is changing at an unprecedented rate, and that this is having an impact on Scotland’s Railway.

“In our current climate – which is already warmer and wetter – we know that extreme weather events can impact our railway in a way that causes disruption for our customers.

“Our plan will look at how we can implement new and improved climate science and adaptation capabilities that will strengthen our decision-making processes and help us manage our changing climate in the future.”

David Lister, safety and sustainability director for ScotRail, said: “Our vision is to deliver a safe, sustainable, inclusive and accessible railway for Scotland.

“Climate resilience is a strategic priority for Scotland’s Railway, and this plan will keep track and train working together to ensure Scotland’s Railway is adapting to the impacts of climate change while targeting actions that enable the continued safe operation of the railway and reduce the disruption climate change can cause.”

Jonny Casey, head of climate ready leadership at sustainability charity Sniffer and manager of the Adaptation Scotland programme, said: “Our climate is changing, and while some of these changes are avoidable, other consequences are now unavoidable. We need to adapt to live well with present and future impacts. Scotland’s Railway is central to connecting our places, and a vital system for business and leisure transport on which many other services depend.

“We are delighted to see Scotland’s Railway take such a leading role in Scotland’s infrastructure resilience planning. This work will help ensure the railways are able to adapt our changing climate as well as inspiring action from peers and partners across Scotland through Network Rail's membership of the Adaptation Scotland Public Sector Climate Adaptation Network.”

In total £1.9bn will be invested in renewing the railway’s infrastructure in Scotland over the next five years.

More than £400m of this will contribute towards the resilience of the network against extreme weather and future changes in climate – including over £100m on earthworks, £100m on lineside infrastructure including drainage and over £40m on structures like bridges and tunnels.

This builds on investment already made over recent years including the establishment in Scotland of the British railway’s first 24/7 specialist weather desk, staffed by qualified meteorologists, to analyse the real-time impacts of extreme weather on the railway.

Scotland’s Railway is also at the forefront of deploying remote monitoring equipment on the infrastructure to help give early warning of potential issues with wireless tilt meters now installed at over 150 locations.

With plans to roll this kit out to more sites, the tilt sensors detect movement in slopes and send an alert via the mobile network to the railway’s control room.

River level monitors and scour telemetry has also been installed on key bridges across the Scottish network and additional investment has been made in surveying and maintaining drainage assets across the country.

Link to the report itself (too big for meaningful quote):

https://www.networkrail.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Scotlands-Railway-CP7-Climate-Ready-WRCCA-Plan.pdf

 

[Arkholme Ghost]

Out of curiosity, where else could it be controlled from?



MARK

Lancaster!

I heard staff at Lancaster station talking about new signalling being based there!

Completely works.

 

[D365]

ETCS seems to be in for a rapid deployment, with ECML South, part of TRU, WCML North in CP7, and now MML being planned for CP8.
Also Cambrian hardware replaced.
Much will depend on how the ECML project goes from here.

The wider Network Rail position is that resignalling by conventional means is now "unaffordable", and ETCS will do the job at lower cost.
ETCS-fitted trains will in any case be working into Scotland from the ECML and WCML at no cost to them.
All to be proved, of course.

Lower cost - my alarm bells are ringing. Let's hope they are not including fleet fitments in that!

Very much all to be proved. Especially since the postponement of GWML and Wherry Lines, I'm not convinced that ETCS will spread as quickly as it could.

 

[The Planner]

Lancaster!

I heard staff at Lancaster station talking about new signalling being based there!

Completely works.

Its not going to be Lancaster.

 

[collexions]

The new M-ROC 2nd floor desk fit out has provision for 5 desks for current Crewe control areas, 3 for current Preston control areas, 3 for current Warrington control areas, 3 for current Carlisle control areas +2 CCTV LX desks.

 

[Phil G]

Still not finishing GW electrification to Bristol or Oxford then?

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Still not finishing GW electrification to Bristol or Oxford then?

Seems not. If you wanted to electrify a key route from Southampton port to the midlands that would be the place to start.