Network railcard during peak times - MG11

[simbariya]

Greetings,

I boarded a train from London Liverpool Street to Stansted Airport on 7th October at 5 am with a pre-purchased Anytime Single with a valid Network Railcard. The ticket clearly stated anytime single, any route permitted, and allowed me to go through and exit the barriers at the destination. However, the inspectors past the barrier requested to check the ticket and advised I have to pay a penalty fare of £40 as the Network Railcard can only be used during off-peak times. Being unaware that 5 am is considered a peak time, network railcard restrictions, plus the confusion of ticket stating "any time, any route", I have argued with the inspector, and requested to repurchase a valid ticket instead of paying the penalty fare. Unsuccessfully so, I received a lot of prejudice and a mouthful from the inspector, so as a result, I refused to pay the penalty, gave my details to him and continued with my journey.

I hadn't received anything in the post, but having moved address few days ago I decided to contact IRCAS to advise them of change of address and asked if there is anything issued to me. They advised there is an MG11 issued on 7th Oct, and that Greater Anglia Prosecutions will be dealing with it.

What can I expect, and what should be my further steps in your opinion please? What if the change of address is not recorded and I will unknowingly ignore the letter to come?

Many thanks.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I would very strongly suggest you should set up a Royal Mail redirection from your previous address to your new one to ensure you do not miss the correspondence. If you do, you could be in a world of hassle. This is a very good idea anyway, you never know what you've forgotten to do a change of address for.

 

[Watershed]

Greetings,

I boarded a train from London Liverpool Street to Stansted Airport on 7th October at 5 am with a pre-purchased Anytime Single with a valid Network Railcard. The ticket clearly stated anytime single, any route permitted, and allowed me to go through and exit the barriers at the destination. However, the inspectors past the barrier requested to check the ticket and advised I have to pay a penalty fare of £40 as the Network Railcard can only be used during off-peak times. Being unaware that 5 am is considered a peak time, network railcard restrictions, plus the confusion of ticket stating "any time, any route", I have argued with the inspector, and requested to repurchase a valid ticket instead of paying the penalty fare. Unsuccessfully so, I received a lot of prejudice and a mouthful from the inspector, so as a result, I refused to pay the penalty, gave my details to him and continued with my journey.

I hadn't received anything in the post, but having moved address few days ago I decided to contact IRCAS to advise them of change of address and asked if there is anything issued to me. They advised there is an MG11 issued on 7th Oct, and that Greater Anglia Prosecutions will be dealing with it.

What can I expect, and what should be my further steps in your opinion please? What if the change of address is not recorded and I will unknowingly ignore the letter to come?

Many thanks.

Whilst it's understandable that you thought the ticket would be valid at any time - being marked as "Anytime" - Network Railcard discounted tickets cannot be used on weekdays between 04:30-09:59 (except for a handful of local easements which allow travel slightly earlier). This applies regardless of the ticket type.

Though this might make it seem like Anytime tickets shouldn't be sold with Network Railcard discounts, one of the circumstances in which you might want a Network Railcard discounted Anytime ticket would be if the Off-Peak ticket for your journey has evening restrictions. It would therefore be wrong for there to be no discount in such circumstances.

By buying a Network Railcard, you agree to the associated terms and conditions, which include the above restriction. Therefore it is unlikely to be relevant that you thought the ticket had no time restriction.

Where a Network Railcard discounted ticket is used during the restricted period, an excess is payable, namely the difference to the cheapest valid walk-up fare (obviously without Railcard discount). Your ticket isn't fundamentally invalid, and it's not a valid reason to issue a Penalty Fare, but you do have to pay the excess.

It's highly unfortunate that you refused the Penalty Fare, as this would have given you the opportunity to raise an appeal and in so doing, gain the valuable protection that this brings - you can then no longer be prosecuted in relation to the incident.

Whilst the RPI's intention to issue a Penalty Fare was wrong, by refusing this, you are now on a pathway to potentially being prosecuted for an alleged offence under Byelaw 18 of the Railway Byelaws 2005 (which makes it a strict liability offence to board a train without a valid ticket) or section 5(3)(a) of the Regulation of Railways Act 1889 (RoRA - which makes it an offence to travel without previously having paid your fare, if you have intent to avoid payment thereof).

I don't believe that either offence is made out, as your ticket wasn't fundamentally invalid (it merely required payment of the excess fare, as stated in the NRCoT) and you offered to buy a new ticket when told yours was not valid at that time.

However, that does not stop Greater Anglia from nevertheless (threatening to) bring a prosecution and you then facing the invidious choice of paying an out of Court settlement if you want to avoid the risk of going to Court (if you are offered one - despite not legally being in the wrong) or going to Court and having the expense, hassle and stress of defending yourself (if you want to plead 'not guilty').

One issue I'm slightly concerned about is the fact that you proactively contacted IRCAS. Whilst this is good in the sense that it avoided you being prosecuted without your knowledge (although you should always arrange postal redirection anyway), I'd ask why you knew who they were. Is it perhaps the case that you have been involved with them due to previous ticketing incidents or Penalty Fares?

As I'm sure you will understand, if this is the case, it may encourage GA to see you as a 'repeat offender' (even if this is not necessarily accurate) and so they may be less willing to settle the matter out of Court, or may try and present this as evidence of your intent to avoid payment (if they try and prosecute under RoRA).

 

[simbariya]

Thank you for your replies.

I knew about IRCAS because on the same day of the incident, after I calmed down after the dispute with the inspector, I called Stansted Express helpline with hopes to deal with the matter there and then, and the person on the phone advised me to not worry as this will be dealt by IRCAS and they will just send a payment collection letter within a couple of weeks. I took note of the agency, and since I hadn't received any correspondence, I thought of reaching out myself, as I want this matter to be concluded as soon as possible.

IRCAS have replied to me saying they will send the new address to Prosecutions department to ensure future correspondence is sent there, would you consider this sufficient enough, or should I still set up the redirection?

 

[Watershed]

Thank you for your replies.

I knew about IRCAS because on the same day of the incident, after I calmed down after the dispute with the inspector, I called Stansted Express helpline with hopes to deal with the matter there and then, and the person on the phone advised me to not worry as this will be dealt by IRCAS and they will just send a payment collection letter within a couple of weeks. I took note of the agency, and since I hadn't received any correspondence, I thought of reaching out myself, as I want this matter to be concluded as soon as possible.

IRCAS have replied to me saying they will send the new address to Prosecutions department to ensure future correspondence is sent there, would you consider this sufficient enough, or should I still set up the redirection?

Ok, that makes sense. Most people have never heard of IRCAS before and so alarm bells were immediately ringing when you said you proactively contacted them!

There is no way I would rely on IRCAS to pass on the change of address. You could be prosecuted in your absence if the Greater Anglia Prosecutions Department don't update your address for some reason, and that would simply make the whole situation even more stressful - you might only find out about it when Enforcement Officers knock on your door, demanding you pay an unpaid fine!

Postal redirection really doesn't cost too much, and is always advisable when you move home - even if you didn't have a potential prosecution pending.

 

[WesternLancer]

Whilst it's understandable that you thought the ticket would be valid at any time - being marked as "Anytime" - Network Railcard discounted tickets cannot be used on weekdays between 04:30-09:59 (except for a handful of local easements which allow travel slightly earlier). This applies regardless of the ticket type.

Though this might make it seem like Anytime tickets shouldn't be sold with Network Railcard discounts, one of the circumstances in which you might want a Network Railcard discounted Anytime ticket would be if the Off-Peak ticket for your journey has evening restrictions. It would therefore be wrong for there to be no discount in such circumstances.

By buying a Network Railcard, you agree to the associated terms and conditions, which include the above restriction. Therefore it is unlikely to be relevant that you thought the ticket had no time restriction.

Where a Network Railcard discounted ticket is used during the restricted period, an excess is payable, namely the difference to the cheapest valid walk-up fare (obviously without Railcard discount). Your ticket isn't fundamentally invalid, and it's not a valid reason to issue a Penalty Fare, but you do have to pay the excess.

It's highly unfortunate that you refused the Penalty Fare, as this would have given you the opportunity to raise an appeal and in so doing, gain the valuable protection that this brings - you can then no longer be prosecuted in relation to the incident.

Whilst the RPI's intention to issue a Penalty Fare was wrong, by refusing this, you are now on a pathway to potentially being prosecuted for an alleged offence under Byelaw 18 of the Railway Byelaws 2005 (which makes it a strict liability offence to board a train without a valid ticket) or section 5(3)(a) of the Regulation of Railways Act 1889 (RoRA - which makes it an offence to travel without previously having paid your fare, if you have intent to avoid payment thereof).

I don't believe that either offence is made out, as your ticket wasn't fundamentally invalid (it merely required payment of the excess fare, as stated in the NRCoT) and you offered to buy a new ticket when told yours was not valid at that time.

However, that does not stop Greater Anglia from nevertheless (threatening to) bring a prosecution and you then facing the invidious choice of paying an out of Court settlement if you want to avoid the risk of going to Court (if you are offered one - despite not legally being in the wrong) or going to Court and having the expense, hassle and stress of defending yourself (if you want to plead 'not guilty').

One issue I'm slightly concerned about is the fact that you proactively contacted IRCAS. Whilst this is good in the sense that it avoided you being prosecuted without your knowledge (although you should always arrange postal redirection anyway), I'd ask why you knew who they were. Is it perhaps the case that you have been involved with them due to previous ticketing incidents or Penalty Fares?

As I'm sure you will understand, if this is the case, it may encourage GA to see you as a 'repeat offender' (even if this is not necessarily accurate) and so they may be less willing to settle the matter out of Court, or may try and present this as evidence of your intent to avoid payment (if they try and prosecute under RoRA).

This is a full and v helpful response to the OP.

In moving things forward would it be a viable / plausible option for the OP, in a carefully worded response to the letter - to make the point along the lines that:

• They apologise for the incident
• Have now learned that a Network Railcard was not valid at this very early hour but had mistakenly presumed that 5am was not peak time
• Will not make the same mistake again
• Have subsequently looked into the matter and believe the conditions of travel (I have not looked this up but it may help cite the actual clause/ruke - no doubt someone here will know) mean that I should have been offered the ability to pay an Excess Fare to cover the sum I owed
• I was not, however, offered this opportunity when staff spoke to me
• I am happy to pay the Excess Fare that I owe in respect of this journey (sometimes people here suggest even enclosing a cheque to that value - I'm not sure that would be a good idea in this case or not, but if you posted journey details and fare you did pay, people here will be able to work out what the Excess Fare that it may have been possible to pay would be)

I would appreciate others advice on such a course of action, and the OP would do well to wait a bit and see what others think before following my advice, in case the consensus is that this would not be a good way forward for @simbariya to take.

Yes, also postal redirection is vital now, as mentioned above - see Royal Mail website as to how to set this up - if you do not engage with the Railway from now on you will be on an escalator to court without you knowing it - and that will be a real hassle to sort out (as can be seen from other threads where people find themselves in that situation).

 

[AlterEgo]

OP: how and where did you purchase the ticket? Was it sold against an itinerary?

 

[simbariya]

Thank you @Watershed and @WesternLancer - I have now set up the redirection. Ironically, even for just 3 months it is more expensive than the penalty fare that was offered. Royal Mail require at least 5 business days, so I hope the letter does not come until 7 November.

@AlterEgo I purchased it 3 days in advance using Trainline app.

 

[43096]

@AlterEgo I purchased it 3 days in advance using Trainline app.

Presumably you used a time that was outside the 04:30 to 09:59 "window" where the Network Card is not valid? Whenever I've booked (admittedly not through Trainline) it has not applied the railcard discount on anytime tickets for trains it was not valid on.

 

[AlterEgo]

@AlterEgo I purchased it 3 days in advance using Trainline app.

And did you get an itinerary with that purchase? Which train did you select to purchase the fare?

A further relevant question is - what time did you need to be at Stansted for? These are questions the company will have in mind.

 

[skyhigh]

@AlterEgo I purchased it 3 days in advance using Trainline app.

Did you select the 5am train, or a later one?

 

[Watershed]

This is a full and v helpful response to the OP.

In moving things forward would it be a viable / plausible option for the OP, in a carefully worded response to the letter - to make the point along the lines that:

• They apologise for the incident
• Have now learned that a Network Railcard was not valid at this very early hour but had mistakenly presumed that 5am was not peak time
• Will not make the same mistake again
• Have subsequently looked into the matter and believe the conditions of travel (I have not looked this up but it may help cite the actual clause/ruke - no doubt someone here will know) mean that I should have been offered the ability to pay an Excess Fare to cover the sum I owed
• I was not, however, offered this opportunity when staff spoke to me
• I am happy to pay the Excess Fare that I owe in respect of this journey (sometimes people here suggest even enclosing a cheque to that value - I'm not sure that would be a good idea in this case or not, but if you posted journey details and fare you did pay, people here will be able to work out what the Excess Fare that it may have been possible to pay would be)

I would appreciate others advice on such a course of action, and the OP would do well to wait a bit and see what others think before following my advice, in case the consensus is that this would not be a good way forward for @simbariya to take.

Yes, also postal redirection is vital now, as mentioned above - see Royal Mail website as to how to set this up - if you do not engage with the Railway from now on you will be on an escalator to court without you knowing it - and that will be a real hassle to sort out (as can be seen from other threads where people find themselves in that situation).

I think that would be a perfectly reasonable response, but obviously the OP will want to wait until the letter from GA arrives, to see what (if any) offence they might allege.

 

[simbariya]

And did you get an itinerary with that purchase? Which train did you select to purchase the fare?

A further relevant question is - what time did you need to be at Stansted for? These are questions the company will have in mind.

Did you select the 5am train, or a later one?

It was a later train that I purchased. I planned my journey few days in advance, but since I found out about a railway strike that took place that weekend, I decided to travel as early as possible. The ticket said any time, and it also stated something along the lines of ("You can also travel on xx:xx, xx:xx ..." etc), so I falsely presumed it would be fine. I couldn't fathom 5 am would be considered a peak time.

I think that would be a perfectly reasonable response, but obviously the OP will want to wait until the letter from GA arrives, to see what (if any) offence they might allege.

I found the following in the conditions of the railcard:


4. Conditions of use of the Network Railcard

4.7. You will be asked to pay the difference between the price of your discounted ticket and the full price applicable fare (or the Penalty Fare if travelling in the Penalty Fares area) if you travel:
4.7.3. on a route to which a higher fare applies or at a time when reduced fares do not apply.


Do you happen to know what is considered a Penalty Fare area?

 

[WesternLancer]

It was a later train that I purchased. I planned my journey few days in advance, but since I found out about a railway strike that took place that weekend, I decided to travel as early as possible. The ticket said any time, and it also stated something along the lines of ("You can also travel on xx:xx, xx:xx ..." etc), so I falsely presumed it would be fine. I couldn't fathom 5 am would be considered a peak time.


I found the following in the conditions of the railcard:


4. Conditions of use of the Network Railcard

4.7. You will be asked to pay the difference between the price of your discounted ticket and the full price applicable fare (or the Penalty Fare if travelling in the Penalty Fares area) if you travel:
4.7.3. on a route to which a higher fare applies or at a time when reduced fares do not apply.


Do you happen to know what is considered a Penalty Fare area?

Hi - the Penalty Fare (PF) area would be whatever Greater Anglia's PF area is. I'll take a look and post a link. The wording of that however suggests to me that the Excess Fare option is not available if it is a PF area. @Watershed may have a view on that given I took my cue on that as an option from post #3.

Edit: relevant Link:

Penalty Fares

Don't pay a Penalty Fare. Buy the correct ticket before you travel.Please make sure you buy a valid ticket for your entire journey before you travel. Otherwise, you could be charged extra.

www.greateranglia.co.uk

and map of penalty fare areas (see page 6 of this pdf from that page - stations shown on the map in light blue as opposed to orange - which to me shows that Stansted Airport is such a PF station)

https://www.greateranglia.co.uk/media/9680/download?inline

By purchasing for a later train I guess it would have been one on which the Railcard was valid when you booked it, but then you took the (sensible) decision to travel early to avoid strike related problems, and thus fell foul of the Railcard rule without realising it.

So the issue becomes if the interpretation in my advice bullet points previously is worth asking that 'you could have been asked to pay an excess' (which you sort of tried to offer, albeit in the guise of a new ticket which would have netted more for the railway) or if the staff had no discretion but to only offer you a PF (which on your refusal effectively escalates things on to a path to a report for prosecution - which is what seems to have happened).
EDIT - I see @Watershed has addressed this matter in reply below #17, towards the end of that post - in general I would advice quoting from the National Conditions of Travel in your dialogue with Greater Anglia as opposed to the Railcard conditions.

When you get to the stage of drafting your response you can post it here for comment and proof reading as people will happily help - eg with best sorts of phrases to use - esp when it relates to railway travel/ticket conditions etc

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Do you happen to know what is considered a Penalty Fare area?

A good part of the Greater Anglia network, including, as relates to this thread, London Liverpool Street to Stansted Airport. See link below.
.

https://www.greateranglia.co.uk/media/9680/download?inline

 

[DeverseSam]

allowed me to go through and exit the barriers at the destination. However, the inspectors past the barrier

There are no ticket barriers at Stansted but it’s perhaps surprising that the barriers at Liverpool Street didn’t flag it up

 

[Watershed]

It was a later train that I purchased. I planned my journey few days in advance, but since I found out about a railway strike that took place that weekend, I decided to travel as early as possible.

This may be something you want to raise in your letter, in order to pre-empt any suggestion that you deliberately selected a later train in order to save money. On its own, I don't think that this is sufficient to demonstrate intent to avoid payment, but it's an allegation that GA might try to make.

The ticket said any time, and it also stated something along the lines of ("You can also travel on xx:xx, xx:xx ..." etc), so I falsely presumed it would be fine.

I presume that the 5am train you caught wasn't in that list, though?

I couldn't fathom 5 am would be considered a peak time.

The intention of the restriction is to prevent people from using Network Railcard discounted tickets for their commute (to undercut the cost of a season ticket), on any train from the first of the day until 10am - and some people do commute that early in the morning. But I can sort of see where you're coming from.

I found the following in the conditions of the railcard:


4. Conditions of use of the Network Railcard

4.7. You will be asked to pay the difference between the price of your discounted ticket and the full price applicable fare (or the Penalty Fare if travelling in the Penalty Fares area) if you travel:
4.7.3. on a route to which a higher fare applies or at a time when reduced fares do not apply.


Do you happen to know what is considered a Penalty Fare area?

The vast majority of services to/from London are subject to Penalty Fares, including those to Stansted.

But the fact that the Network Railcard conditions suggest a Penalty Fare can be issued* is not fatal - as this is contradicted by the National Rail Conditions of Travel, which states in 9.5 that the penalty for travelling on a time-restricted ticket at an invalid time is simply payment of the excess. And condition 1.2 of the Network Railcard conditions says:

Where the NRCoT conflict with these Railcard Conditions, the NRCoT override the Railcard Conditions.

*In a sense this is circular reasoning, because a Penalty Fare can only be issued if your ticket is invalid. But the validity is determined by what the conditions of the contract say - and the Network Railcard conditions say that you simply have to pay the difference if you travel at a restricted time.

 

[AlterEgo]

I advise the OP to be very, very careful about their defence. Someone claiming to purchase a few days in advance - when the strike was well publicised - and then switching to a train at 5am on a route with fast, direct trains to the airport, raises an eyebrow. The OP was travelling at least five hours early on a route which didn’t have any strike action at all on that day.

OP: what was the purpose of your journey? Were you travelling to make a flight? Remember that if you end up in court, the time of your flight may either support your assertion you “simply travelled early”. But if the time of your flight meant your rail journey had to be before 10am in any case, I submit that you may wish to abandon this line of defence. If your flight was in the early afternoon, for example, I recommend you enclose a copy of the ticket to show you had no intent or need to travel so early, which would back up your defence that you were simply being cautious.

It is important that we know the full facts because if a company suspects intent they will be more inclined to prosecute you than if you simply made an error. I advise that you do not make any admissions in this thread but you will need to think carefully about your defence and how you approach the train company.

My recommendation, if you wish to withdraw the line of defence, is for you to attempt to settle out of court. Greater Anglia will normally do so for about £100 plus the fare avoided.

 

[JonathanH]

There are no ticket barriers at Stansted but it’s perhaps surprising that the barriers at Liverpool Street didn’t flag it up

There admittedly aren't any automatic ticket barriers at Stansted Airport. There are frequent manual ticket barriers in force.

 

[glasgowniteowl]

Also they may look up the trainline purchase history, are they likely to see many tickets purchased during the peak time for trains selected for times the rail card would be valid, they may interpret that as a pattern etc of intentional buying tickets at wrong time etc

 

[simbariya]

I advise the OP to be very, very careful about their defence. Someone claiming to purchase a few days in advance - when the strike was well publicised - and then switching to a train at 5am on a route with fast, direct trains to the airport, raises an eyebrow. The OP was travelling at least five hours early on a route which didn’t have any strike action at all on that day.

OP: what was the purpose of your journey? Were you travelling to make a flight? Remember that if you end up in court, the time of your flight may either support your assertion you “simply travelled early”. But if the time of your flight meant your rail journey had to be before 10am in any case, I submit that you may wish to abandon this line of defence. If your flight was in the early afternoon, for example, I recommend you enclose a copy of the ticket to show you had no intent or need to travel so early, which would back up your defence that you were simply being cautious.

It is important that we know the full facts because if a company suspects intent they will be more inclined to prosecute you than if you simply made an error. I advise that you do not make any admissions in this thread but you will need to think carefully about your defence and how you approach the train company.

My recommendation, if you wish to withdraw the line of defence, is for you to attempt to settle out of court. Greater Anglia will normally do so for about £100 plus the fare avoided.

Thank you, I would prefer to settle out of court in any case, and the purpose of this thread was to gather advice with regards to address change situation and any other suggestions given that I am completely unfamiliar with this type of incident. The strike was announced for 6, 7, 8, 9 and 10 of October if I recall correctly, and I remember there was no national rail at all the day before, hence I prompted to go early. I didn't think much of repercussions, as I used to always buy tickets at the station at the time of travel with the 26-30 railcard, and only recently switched to trainline which is where I bought the Network railcard from.

Also they may look up the trainline purchase history, are they likely to see many tickets purchased during the peak time for trains selected for times the rail card would be valid, they may interpret that as a pattern etc of intentional buying tickets at wrong time etc

I just had a look at that. Luckily, I only have the Network Railcard since August, and only have a handful of journeys, which do not fall under peak times.

I do have, however, one ticket from Hull to London that I bought for my mum with a Senior Railcard (which she does have) to visit me in London in the history as well.

 

[RPI]

In the original post the OP states that they were stopped after the ticket barriers, if I'm understanding that correctly. If this was past the last point of sale then I would suggest that a 5.3(a) prosecution may be successful, though it would depend on any questioning or significant statements made at the time, as had the OP not been stopped then the correct fare for the journey would have been avoided as they had left/were leaving the station.

 

[furlong]

Was this a website or app purchase? Physical ticket collected or e-ticket?

Go back and look at all the information you were provided with during the purchase process.

I've just tried to buy a similar ticket on thetrainline's website and it states unambiguously without qualification that if I accept the contract it is offering I can travel "any time of day". Even though it knows I am using a railcard because that is the ticket I selected to purchase, it fails to state that there is a railcard condition that would ordinarily override that. I didn't complete the process, so I can't say if it corrects itself later, but there might be an argument that not even an excess fare is payable.

 

[gray1404]

The frustrating thing for me about the situation is that the ticket inspector who stops the passenger did not say that they needed to pay the excess. Although it would have been useful to upset the penalty fare and then appeal it both to have the appeal upheld potentially and to be statute barred from being prosecuted, the passenger was correct that they were not going to upset the penalty fare because it was not valid to be issued.

I am sorry but the staff member concerned should have followed the rules correctly and issued an excess

 

[furlong]

I looked at a few other websites but haven't found another that is so blatantly incorrect.
On the LNER site when you select the 'terms and conditions' for your ticket under 'your booking' it says "Valid on all services for dates shown" which is similarly incorrect but not as "in your face wrong" as thetrainline which is done in a way that draws your attention to the wrong information.
The pop-up box on the LNER site here *should* also include a paragraph mentioning the railcard requirement.

 

[simbariya]

In the original post the OP states that they were stopped after the ticket barriers, if I'm understanding that correctly. If this was past the last point of sale then I would suggest that a 5.3(a) prosecution may be successful, though it would depend on any questioning or significant statements made at the time, as had the OP not been stopped then the correct fare for the journey would have been avoided as they had left/were leaving the station.

The automatic barriers were only at Liverpool Street; the destination had just manual gates, and the inspectors were checking the tickets as people were passing through them towards the escalators to the airport.

The frustrating thing for me about the situation is that the ticket inspector who stops the passenger did not say that they needed to pay the excess. Although it would have been useful to upset the penalty fare and then appeal it both to have the appeal upheld potentially and to be statute barred from being prosecuted, the passenger was correct that they were not going to upset the penalty fare because it was not valid to be issued.

I am sorry but the staff member concerned should have followed the rules correctly and issued an excess

Not just that, it is the attitude of the inspector that was the main reason I didn't want to pay the fare to him. Sadly, early morning and distress of the situation made me forget to take his details also, otherwise I would have launched a complaint myself.

Was this a website or app purchase? Physical ticket collected or e-ticket?

Go back and look at all the information you were provided with during the purchase process.

I've just tried to buy a similar ticket on thetrainline's website and it states unambiguously without qualification that if I accept the contract it is offering I can travel "any time of day". Even though it knows I am using a railcard because that is the ticket I selected to purchase, it fails to state that there is a railcard condition that would ordinarily override that. I didn't complete the process, so I can't say if it corrects itself later, but there might be an argument that not even an excess fare is payable.

It was an app purchase. The email confirmation just states the following with a button to view the ticket (attached):

Outbound Friday, 7 October

London Liverpool Street to Stansted Airport

Anytime Single

London Liverpool Street to Stansted Airport

View tickets - Adult 1
Network Railcard

In the app I can no longer view the ticket, it just shows the receipt with payment details.

 

[WesternLancer]

Thank you, I would prefer to settle out of court in any case, and the purpose of this thread was to gather advice with regards to address change situation and any other suggestions given that I am completely unfamiliar with this type of incident.

Requesting to be able to pay the Excess Fare, which may be offered as part of a settlement out of court, or them offering such a settlement will ultimately be the same outcome for you, tho the former may cost a bit less than the latter. My instinct is that if you put your case to them reasonably, and with care, you have a very good chance of either one of those outcomes.

Unless there is stuff you are intentionally not telling us (and I for one don't think there is), I reckon the chances of this going to court are somewhat slim.

Was this a website or app purchase? Physical ticket collected or e-ticket?

Go back and look at all the information you were provided with during the purchase process.

I've just tried to buy a similar ticket on thetrainline's website and it states unambiguously without qualification that if I accept the contract it is offering I can travel "any time of day". Even though it knows I am using a railcard because that is the ticket I selected to purchase, it fails to state that there is a railcard condition that would ordinarily override that. I didn't complete the process, so I can't say if it corrects itself later, but there might be an argument that not even an excess fare is payable.

Useful work on that test, tho I assume that it's not Greater Anglia's problem if the org'n you buy a ticket off offers poor quality info with your ticket purchase, that then leads you into a situation where you fall foul of a ticket inspection by a revenue protection staff member. And you would then have to take that up with Trainline and my hunch is 'good luck with getting anything useful out of them' - unless you had bought it off Greater Anglia's website and this generated the same problem, I can't see it would count for much by way of a 'defense'.

 

[CyrusWuff]

As an aside, physical Network Railcards (regardless of whether they're purchased at a station or online) clearly state on the front "Not valid until 10.00 Monday - Friday". I would also hope that anyone selling one would draw the purchaser's attention to that restriction as well.

 

[furlong]

Useful work on that test, tho I assume that it's not Greater Anglia's problem if the org'n you buy a ticket off offers poor quality info with your ticket purchase

It absolutely would be GA's problem - that's why we have accreditation - all the Train Companies and Licensed Retailers are equivalent when it comes to matters like this. The onus would be on the OP though to back up any claim that the purchase process either created contractual terms different from those that the rail industry expected (first line of industry defence, NRCoT Part B introduction) or alternatively mis-sold a product or alternatively provided misleading information about what it had sold.

The industry really doesn't help itself though. Who approved the silly idea of labelling a ticket 'Anytime' when it is not valid at 'Any time'? And then went on not to include clear text explaining this illogicality whenever that label is used in such circumstances? Why not call it 'After Ten' ticket instead of Anytime when sold with this railcard if they're trying to indicate the validity times in the name? Or even just add the word 'Restricted' in front if that's too hard? "Restricted Anytime" or even 'Not Anytime' making it clear people have to check.

I think a number of websites I've looked at need improving so people cannot legitimately claim they were unaware of basic restrictions.
The underlying problem here is that most (all?) websites are geared around selecting a specific journey and then offering tickets valid on it but they don't focus on the opposite: Here is the ticket I'm about to buy or have just bought - point out any restrictions on its validity, and let me see all the services I can use it on if I want to know that. (Mixing deck comes closest but doesn't work post-purchase.) This was an e-ticket. Maybe thetrainline app could add a button to its tickets after purchase that shows all the services it can be used on? NRE ought to do this too - scan my ticket and show me the (next) journeys I can make with it.

Thetrainline app is even worse. Page heading 'Payment'. First line 'Anytime Single'. Second line 'Travel any time of day'. The railcard symbol is over half-way down the page with no indication that it makes the earlier text incorrect and no information that I can find that tells you this. The (i) information button is even clearer: "Flexible ticket with no time restrictions on when you can travel" plus over a page of other information but no mention of a railcard making this information false in the context it is being displayed.

I suggest the OP takes some screenshots. The app clearly should have failed accreditation on this point IMHO, and all of GA.,Transport Focus and the ORR should be pursuing RDG / thetrainline to sort this out a.s.a.p - something as blatant as this should be a well-known problem by now and the passenger should be given nothing more than words of advice, not to do it again. They should not display these tickets as unqualified 'Anytime' when they have time restrictions.

 

[WesternLancer]

It absolutely would be GA's problem - that's why we have accreditation - all the Train Companies and Licensed Retailers are equivalent when it comes to matters like this. The onus would be on the OP though to back up any claim that the purchase process either created contractual terms different from those that the rail industry expected (first line of industry defence, NRCoT Part B introduction) or alternatively mis-sold a product or alternatively provided misleading information about what it had sold.

The industry really doesn't help itself though. Who approved the silly idea of labelling a ticket 'Anytime' when it is not valid at 'Any time'? And then went on not to include clear text explaining this illogicality whenever that label is used in such circumstances? Why not call it 'After Ten' ticket instead of Anytime when sold with this railcard if they're trying to indicate the validity times in the name? Or even just add the word 'Restricted' in front if that's too hard? "Restricted Anytime" or even 'Not Anytime' making it clear people have to check.

I think a number of websites I've looked at need improving so people cannot legitimately claim they were unaware of basic restrictions.
The underlying problem here is that most (all?) websites are geared around selecting a specific journey and then offering tickets valid on it but they don't focus on the opposite: Here is the ticket I'm about to buy or have just bought - point out any restrictions on its validity, and let me see all the services I can use it on if I want to know that. (Mixing deck comes closest but doesn't work post-purchase.) This was an e-ticket. Maybe thetrainline app could add a button to its tickets after purchase that shows all the services it can be used on? NRE ought to do this too - scan my ticket and show me the (next) journeys I can make with it.

Thetrainline app is even worse. Page heading 'Payment'. First line 'Anytime Single'. Second line 'Travel any time of day'. The railcard symbol is over half-way down the page with no indication that it makes the earlier text incorrect and no information that I can find that tells you this. The (i) information button is even clearer: "Flexible ticket with no time restrictions on when you can travel" plus over a page of other information but no mention of a railcard making this information false in the context it is being displayed.

I suggest the OP takes some screenshots. The app clearly should have failed accreditation on this point IMHO, and all of GA.,Transport Focus and the ORR should be pursuing RDG / thetrainline to sort this out a.s.a.p - something as blatant as this should be a well-known problem by now and the passenger should be given nothing more than words of advice, not to do it again. They should not display these tickets as unqualified 'Anytime' when they have time restrictions.

Thanks - all v good points.