New Alexander Dennis buses for Berlin + Other ADL build news

[Jordan Adam]

Do keep in mind though that Cummins L9 is only just over a litre larger yet the L9 can summon 380hp/1700nm for buses, internal engine components and durability should be forseen by all manufacturer so that they can cope with the work or power they have to develop for where there intended to be used on whether that be city or motorway ops, as I recall as I learned from yourself that Volvos D9Bs whilst being up to the job had injector problems, I would like to hope volvo put that experience of problems to work, then again that was technically a renault engine.

The D8K 250hp/1050nm could likely be fitted as Wrights are apparently able to fit a Daimler OM936 to there own product whilst still maintaining there micro-hybrid warfare etc

The same could be said for Plaxtons usage of Volvos D11K for there 14m coaches, Stageys new Panoramas are volvos B11RLE chassis , I would assume they are up to the job, particularly as the iShift trans will keep revs low on the motorway

The Cummins ISL is 8900cc which is a decent size bigger also it can produce up to 1996NM (as in our E500s), that engine in general is a really good unit. The D9B unit was indeed up to the job at a driving point of view, but is probably the 2nd most unreliable engine in a Volvo vehicle to date, beaten only by the D5K.

I do think the D8K will be fine in these, It's just if i was the head at Volvo i'd have put something a tad bit bigger in.

The D11K with I-shift do suffer reliability issues, in the winter the Interdecks are constantly in "limp mode", but they're not too bad when compared to the likes of the D9B! The D11K + ZF Ecolife in the 12M Elites on the 10 (Aberdeen - Inverness) are far superior in almost every aspect, even at high speeds the RPM is low.

 

[Gingerbus1991]

The Cummins ISL is 8900cc which is a decent size bigger also it can produce up to 1996NM (as in our E500s), that engine in general is a really good unit. The D9B unit was indeed up to the job at a driving point of view, but is probably the 2nd most unreliable engine in a Volvo vehicle to date, beaten only by the D5K.

I do think the D8K will be fine in these, It's just if i was the head at Volvo i'd have put something a tad bit bigger in.

The D11K with I-shift do suffer reliability issues, in the winter the Interdecks are constantly in "limp mode", but they're not too bad when compared to the likes of the D9B! The D11K + ZF Ecolife in the 12M Elites on the 10 (Aberdeen - Inverness) are far superior in almost every aspect, even at high speeds the RPM is low.

I do prefer Full Autos myself over Automated Manuals, I would like to sample Volvo’s new Dual-Clutch iShifts found in there trucks, apparently shifts gears much quick that the single-clutch units.

Its just a pitty Volvo limit the D11K 380hp engine with the Ecolife, the latest version can be produced to cope with the torque of the 460hp version, Handy for this 14m Elites, Interdecks or Panorama, Smoother than an iShift as well.

 

[Jordan Adam]

I do prefer Full Autos myself over Automated Manuals, I would like to sample Volvo’s new Dual-Clutch iShifts found in there trucks, apparently shifts gears much quick that the single-clutch units.

Its just a pitty Volvo limit the D11K 380hp engine with the Ecolife, the latest version can be produced to cope with the torque of the 460hp version, Handy for this 14m Elites, Interdecks or Panorama, Smoother than an iShift as well.

Sadly the Ecolife can't handle the torque of the higher power settings, but it's just far superior on the service work than the I-Shift is. Further to that the Ecolife isn't jumping up and down gears constantly!

 

[Gingerbus1991]

Sadly the Ecolife can't handle the torque of the higher power settings, but it's just far superior on the service work than the I-Shift is. Further to that the Ecolife isn't jumping up and down gears constantly!

Not according to many Bus Mags or Irizar, Van Hool and VDL for that matter.

For any engine putting out a peak rating of 2300nm the engine output torque is limited to 2300nm in 1st and 2nd gear if an Ecolife is fitted according to DAF, the engine choice of the above bus builders.

Volvo’s 460hp/2200nm engine should work fine with the 6AP2300B

Apparently ZF are also set to provide there 8HP Powerline Auto for smaller 4-cylinder bus/truck engines by 2020, but this will only support upto 1300nm. Better than the current Voith or Allison unit rivals.

 

[class387]

ADL have now officially launched the 13.4 Metre Enviro400XLB, Lothian is the first buyer getting 42 of them.

https://www.alexander-dennis.com/me...va9uckbYOTyNIKt6SiGcWP3HLV20Z4fGAFIByLEI9Sz3g



In my opinion these vehicles look "bloody amazing" and are a real step forward for the UK bus industry.

This is an exciting alternative to the BCI, which is in my opinion the best bus on the market at the moment. This looks better, it just depends on whether ADL's build quality let's it down.

 

[Gingerbus1991]

This is an exciting alternative to the BCI, which is in my opinion the best bus on the market at the moment. This looks better, it just depends on whether ADL's build quality let's it down.

The 400’s at least having a much more attractive design

 

[Jordan Adam]

The 400’s at least having a much more attractive design

Not to mention the aftercare will be superior and as such in the long run they'll prove more reliable!

 

[Gingerbus1991]

Admittedly its been sometime since I’ve sat on a bus until now, I am just off one of FiGs 2015 400 MMCs, BY GOD THERE TERRIBLE ON HILLS!, the Voiths don’t like quick changes in terrain, flat to steep hills etc, the ZF Ecolifes close-ratio set up seem a far superior gearbox for this, mind you the latest Voiths do seem very eco orientated.

 

[Gingerbus1991]

ADL have now officially launched the 13.4 Metre Enviro400XLB, Lothian is the first buyer getting 42 of them.

https://www.alexander-dennis.com/me...va9uckbYOTyNIKt6SiGcWP3HLV20Z4fGAFIByLEI9Sz3g



In my opinion these vehicles look "bloody amazing" and are a real step forward for the UK bus industry.

Hindsight of my own thoughts on these is wavering after looking at some photos on Flickr.

There is NO Buggy bay, which I don’t get, I quite understand those with disabilitys perhaps need the use of the dedicated space for a wheelchair but do parents not matter to lothian?

No rear steering, this has stuck in my mind every since @Jordan Adam pointed this out, perhaps a problem in Edinburgh, not to mention there sheer length, are Lothian anticipating a higher ridership number after an LEZ is established in Edinburgh?

The rear most lower-deck seats that face rearwards look very tight to those opposite, looks like alot of Knee fumbling is about to happen and the drivers seat specification seems to be very basic, comparing that to the air sprung seats on Lothians 7900h and B5TL/B5LH Gemini’s.

The introductory statement from ADL say that they have higher specification than previously seen by any in Edinburgh, apart from there extra set of wheels and door there pretty much the same as say the 300 skylink vehicles, same interior pallet, spot lighting, glazed roof and stairwell and audio announcments, I think either ADL or Lothians PR tripped up alittle there, Edinburgh have buses that are already nicely decorated.

 

[Jordan Adam]

Hindsight of my own thoughts on these is wavering after looking at some photos on Flickr.

There is NO Buggy bay, which I don’t get, I quite understand those with disabilitys perhaps need the use of the dedicated space for a wheelchair but do parents not matter to lothian?

No rear steering, this has stuck in my mind every since @Jordan Adam pointed this out, perhaps a problem in Edinburgh, not to mention there sheer length, are Lothian anticipating a higher ridership number after an LEZ is established in Edinburgh?

The rear most lower-deck seats that face rearwards look very tight to those opposite, looks like alot of Knee fumbling is about to happen and the drivers seat specification seems to be very basic, comparing that to the air sprung seats on Lothians 7900h and B5TL/B5LH Gemini’s.

The introductory statement from ADL say that they have higher specification than previously seen by any in Edinburgh, apart from there extra set of wheels and door there pretty much the same as say the 300 skylink vehicles, same interior pallet, spot lighting, glazed roof and stairwell and audio announcments, I think either ADL or Lothians PR tripped up alittle there, Edinburgh have buses that are already nicely decorated.

I agree, having looked in to them much more there are a number of issues.

You could never fit a second wheelchair bay in one, but you could certainly get a buggy bay just after the staircase. I suspect the reason they didn't go for this is because it would lower to the seating capacity, and as such the Lothian PR machine wouldn't be able to brag about 100 seats - 99 seats just doesn't have the same ring to it!

The lack of rear steering will first of all heavily impact on the manoeuvrability, as i've said elsewhere these buses will become the "Titanic" with Edinburghs buildings all being Icebergs! Secondly tyre scrub will mean that all 6 of the rear tyres will need replaced roughly on a monthly basis. With tyres costing upwards of £400 each, 6 tyres in total, over 42 vehicles to cover this will not be cheap - if my calculations are correct Lothian will be spending around £101,000 per month on rear tyres for these buses alone!

The specification of them while nice is nothing out of the ordinary even the Ex-Demo E400MMC that Border Buses have is much higher spec. If it wasn't for the longer length and extra axle these would just be "another" bus to most residents.

The Adblue tank is in a rather stupid position too, it's adjacent to the rear door under a pair of seats, this would impact on leg room for those behind and generally looks rather stupid! The heating unit causes a similar issue with the seats on the nearside just after the 2nd doors. If you look here the red should continue on to the cab door, and the vinyl on the stairs looks a bit "bleak"

While i did have my hopes up for these buses as i personally believe Tri-axles are the way forward for big cities, these are more and more starting to seem like another one of those "vanity projects" where the vehicles in the end are not quite as good as made out to be!

 

[Gingerbus1991]

I agree, having looked in to them much more there are a number of issues.

You could never fit a official 2 wheelchair bay in one, but you could certainly get a buggy bay just after the staircase. I suspect the reason they didn't go for this is because it would lower to the seating capacity, and as such the Lothian PR machine wouldn't be able to brag about 100 seats - 99 seats just doesn't have the same ring to it!

The lack of rear steering will first of all heavily impact on the manoeuvrability, as i've said elsewhere these buses will become the "Titanic" with Edinburghs buildings all being Icebergs! Secondly tyre scrub will mean that all 6 of the rear tyres will need replaced roughly on a monthly basis. With tyres costing upwards of £400 each, 6 tyres in total, over 42 vehicles to cover this will not be cheap - if my calculations are correct Lothian will be spending around £101,000 per month on rear tyres for these buses alone!

The specification of them while nice is nothing out of the ordinary even the Ex-Demo E400MMC that Border Buses have is much higher spec. If it wasn't for the longer length and extra axle these would just be "another" bus to most residents.

The Adblue tank is in a rather stupid position too, it's adjacent to the rear door under a pair of seats, this would impact on leg room for those behind and generally looks rather stupid! The heating unit causes a similar issue with the seats on the nearside just after the 2nd doors. If you look here the red should continue on to the cab door, and the vinyl on the stairs looks a bit "bleak"

While i did have my hopes up for these buses as i personally believe Tri-axles are the way forward for big cities, these are more and more starting to seem like another one of those "vanity projects" where the vehicles in the end are not quite as good as made out to be!

Absolutely!! But is there 2 adblue tanks? Theres the filler flap directly in front of the middle wheelarch then a separate filler flap/underseat box directly opposite the middle doors.

 

[Jordan Adam]

Absolutely!! But is there 2 adblue tanks? Theres the filler flap directly in front of the middle wheelarch then a separate filler flap/underseat box directly opposite the middle doors.

The flap opposite the middle doors is marked "diesel" rather than Ad-Blue as i originally thought! My only assumption is that this is a secondary fuel tank for extra capacity, as the fuel tank under the stairs alone would be far too small.

 

[Gingerbus1991]

The flap opposite the middle doors is marked "diesel" rather than Ad-Blue as i originally thought! My only assumption is that this is a secondary fuel tank for extra capacity, as the fuel tank under the stairs alone would be far too small.

An odd arrangement, enviro 500 integrals don’t have this do they?

 

[Jordan Adam]

An odd arrangement, enviro 500 integrals don’t have this do they?

Enviro500 integrals have the staircase set further back to allow a larger fueltank, it's set back by about 1 row of seats.

 

[GusB]

The lack of rear steering will first of all heavily impact on the manoeuvrability, as i've said elsewhere these buses will become the "Titanic" with Edinburghs buildings all being Icebergs! Secondly tyre scrub will mean that all 6 of the rear tyres will need replaced roughly on a monthly basis. With tyres costing upwards of £400 each, 6 tyres in total, over 42 vehicles to cover this will not be cheap - if my calculations are correct Lothian will be spending around £101,000 per month on rear tyres for these buses alone!

I seriously cannot believe they've gone for tri-axle vehicles of that length and without rear steering. Is it an option on the B8L that Lothian didn't specify, or just not available at all?

 

[Gingerbus1991]

I seriously cannot believe they've gone for tri-axle vehicles of that length and without rear steering. Is it an option on the B8L that Lothian didn't specify, or just not available at all?

I couldn't guarantee an answer on that, perhaps Volvo see fit that it doesnt, its would add cost and weight as well.

At this length and for 100 seats over all, roughly 36 downstairs, 3 of them tip ups and the rest up stairs, even lothians services dont seem that busy, there Geminis seem to cope fine outside of there most recent london batch.

 

[Jordan Adam]

I seriously cannot believe they've gone for tri-axle vehicles of that length and without rear steering. Is it an option on the B8L that Lothian didn't specify, or just not available at all?

I couldn't guarantee an answer on that, perhaps Volvo see fit that it doesnt, its would add cost and weight as well.

At this length and for 100 seats over all, roughly 36 downstairs, 3 of them tip ups and the rest up stairs, even lothians services dont seem that busy, there Geminis seem to cope fine outside of there most recent london batch.

It will be an option, even if it's not - it's not something that's hard to fit!

I can't agree enough, most of the issues i see on these could realistically be sorted by lowering the overall capacity slightly. But as i say i have my suspicions that they are they way they are so Lothian and ADL could brag on about having 100 seats.

 

[Bornin1980s]

I believe the Enviro500 is an export only designation. As for engines, I don't think ADL/Dennis have ever made their own, and the choice they offer is a selling point. In the past, it might have occasionally given their products the edge over Leyland, who insisted on only fitting their own engines - no matter how inadequate.

 

[GusB]

I believe the Enviro500 is an export only designation. As for engines, I don't think ADL/Dennis have ever made their own, and the choice they offer is a selling point. In the past, it might have occasionally given their products the edge over Leyland, who insisted on only fitting their own engines - no matter how inadequate.

Dennis did make its own engines many moons ago, but you are correct in that they did offer a range of engine options (Gardner, Cummins and Rolls Royce in the case if the Dominator), which gave it a competitive advantage over the likes of Leyland. Although to be fair, Leyland latterly offered Gardner engines as an alternative, and then switched to Cummins in the final years.

Of course, at this point, Alexander was still a bodybuilder rather than the manufacturer of complete vehicles they are today.

 

[Bornin1980s]

Is MTU (now a Rolls-Royce subsidiary) active in the road engine market?

 

[LOL The Irony]

Is MTU (now a Rolls-Royce subsidiary) active in the road engine market?

No. The engines in a Rolls Royce motor car are made by BMW.

 

[GusB]

https://cbwmagazine.com/adl-to-offer-hydrogen-fuel-cell-buses-for-the-first-time/

ADL to offer hydrogen fuel cell buses for the first time

Alexander Dennis Ltd (ADL) has announced it’s to add hydrogen fuel cell buses to its current line-up of low and zero-emissions vehicles.

The prototype bus undergoing trials. ANDREW MACINTOSH
A prototype Enviro400 double-decker has been developed in partnership with fuel cell system integrators Arcola Energy – a process which has taken over two years.

The hydrogen-powered vehicle has an electric driveline with axle-mounted motors.

The on-board battery is charged by feeding hydrogen from secure tanks to a fuel cell system where it is converted to electricity.

No external battery charging is required, and the vehicle’s only emission is water vapour.

The prototype has undergone a number of design changes during the development process in a bid to optimise performance and ensure regulatory and safety compliance.

It has successfully completed route shadowing trials in several UK cities, and has demonstrated ‘the highest efficiency and therefore the lowest fuel cost in its class,’ according to ADL.

Order books are now open for the new vehicle, and ADL will continue to work with cities, operators and other stakeholders around the UK to demonstrate the vehicle’s potential on fleet trials.

Fuelling infrastructure and hydrogen supply can be handled by one of ADL’s partners.

 

[Jordan Adam]

https://cbwmagazine.com/adl-to-offer-hydrogen-fuel-cell-buses-for-the-first-time/

ADL to offer hydrogen fuel cell buses for the first time

I like how they're saying it was on "secret trials"... Yes driving in to Aberdeen Bus Station and parking up during the peak time is definitely "secret".

Unfortunately for ADL they're a little late this time as Wrightbus are already confirmed as the supplier for deckers under the JIVE project and there's a possibility the vehicles for Aberdeen & London are now in build. No confirmed date for the Aberdeen vehicles as of yet but it looks to be no later than next "Summer" (August).

 

[507021]

Is MTU (now a Rolls-Royce subsidiary) active in the road engine market?

No. The engines in a Rolls Royce motor car are made by BMW.

They are, MTU manufacture engines for Claas tractors.

 

[LOL The Irony]

They are, MTU manufacture engines for Claas tractors.

Is an agricultural tractor really a road vehicle?

 

[507021]

Is an agricultural tractor really a road vehicle?

Agricultural tractors can be used on the road if necessary.

 

[SouthEastBuses]

I'm surprised that you aren't aware that BVG are amongst the most cautious of European operators. They have been trialling 3 (I think) different types of double decker for very many months now - and all met the specifications laid down by BVG. It's very good news that they decided on ADL - as did the Swiss for their Postal operations.

For the Swiss company, it isn't Postal operations, they actually do passanger bus routes like they will do in Berlin! May sound weird because the bus company is called PostAuto.

 

[SouthEastBuses]

The trials for the B8L only started this year, i have my hopes they do well though, and will leave my opinion about the mechanical aspect on them out until i've actually sampled them! But initial impression as they look fantastic.

I admit i'm not the best when it comes to Edinburgh's routes so i have little to no clue where they could go. Although @ross4122 did suggest to me the 11, 16 or 23 as options.

I agree, They'd be perfect for the 1/2! Even more so with the Artics up for replacement in the next year or two.

I agree too, but since I prefer artics, I hope First get Citaro C2 Gs for the 1 and 2 in Aberdeen lol

 

[SouthEastBuses]

As for the Panther LE, ADL/Plaxton should make them in left hand drive too for the Continental European market. Would certainly add some more variety there and would make buses made in the UK very popular in Continental Europe! I also think they should make a B11RLE in single decker form so that the Panther LE can cope on mountain routes. Make a single decker B11RLE and this Panther LE interurban bus could be perfect on mountain interurban routes across Continental Europe. And also North Scotland too, although @Jordan Adam you'd be absolutely right that the main issue with that (well at least in North Scotland, not sure about Continental Europe) would be the lack of luggage capacity, lack of enough seats for school bus services, and of course the current tri axle version wouldn't be able to manage some routes.

They also should make an Enviro200 MMC in left hand drive too. For me, the E200 MMC could be used both as a class I city bus or a cheaper, shorter class II interurban buses suited to short/medium distance routes where a 12m wouldn't manage.

 

[Robertj21a]

For the Swiss company, it isn't Postal operations, they actually do passanger bus routes like they will do in Berlin! May sound weird because the bus company is called PostAuto.

Oh yes, I'm sure we all know that !! - for the Swiss they still refer to their buses in various forms that usually include 'Post' somewhere or other.