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New Avanti planner based TVMs

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Bletchleyite

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So, I've had my first go on these, and my (not so) quick conclusion was that they are absolutely awful - considerably worse than the already-poor Northern/Chiltern ones.

One advantage is the smaller screen - I find the big screen ones difficult to use up close because of the relatively low screen resolution and the need to "hunt" around the large screen to find stuff. There also seem to be two versions of the hardware (both are present at Carlisle), one of them having a cut-out above the card machine so tall people can still see the screen, the other not having this so we can't. Hopefully the former is the standard.

However, that advantage aside, the UI is utterly terrible, and even as an expert TVM user I didn't feel confident about what I was doing, and all I was doing was buying an Any Permitted CDR from Penrith to Carlisle (also ending up with a pointless reservation for an Avanti train I had no intention of using due to the silly pseudocompulsory reservation policy). The most stupid thing is that the times are 12-hour clock - who on earth uses that in a railway context in 2022? But overall, the whole thing was a confusing and slow experience. Almost seems designed to make you use their app instead (which isn't too bad).

Can Avanti get anything right? But more importantly, why can seemingly nobody* design a planner based TVM that is in the slightest bit intuitive, given that (a) it's basically just a big phone (a bit like using one of the phone apps on a 12" iPad Pro zoomed in, basically), and (b) I don't find any of the mobile apps particularly bad to use?

* Possibly LNER, I've not used one recently.
 
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Mcr Warrior

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They're absolutely dreadful! Gave up with one of these labyrinthine new Avanti TVMs at Preston (Lancs) last time I was there; it was much simpler to queue up for the ticket office window instead.
 

CyrusWuff

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Can Avanti get anything right? But more importantly, why can seemingly nobody* design a planner based TVM that is in the slightest bit intuitive,

* Possibly LNER, I've not used one recently.
A better question would be "Why do TVM suppliers and/or TOCs insist on foisting journey planner interfaces on passengers rather than giving them a choice between the 'simple' interface if they know what ticket they want, and the journey planner if they need more hand-holding or want a ticket that requires reservations?"

Back when the journey planner was being rolled out at my TOC, we had machines with the original interface and machines with the journey planner one loaded. Going through the purchase flow up to the point of being asked for payment took me three times as long on the journey planner interface...and that's as someone who knows what they're doing.
 

JonathanH

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A better question would be "Why do TVM suppliers and/or TOCs insist on foisting journey planner interfaces on passengers rather than giving them a choice between the 'simple' interface if they know what ticket they want, and the journey planner if they need more hand-holding or want a ticket that requires reservations?"
It is the logical extension of the 'train fares are too complicated' thing which gets repeatedly raised on here. If you force passengers to use a journey planner, they can only then buy a ticket that is definitely valid on the itinerary they select - ie passengers can't be trusted to buy the right ticket.

The ticker machines are dreadful relative to the Shere machines (although the last one of those I used at Euston was painfully slow).

On another point, are the remaining Shere machines on Avanti stations the last ones which still issue tickets in the old format?
 

Skie

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Just from a Human Machine Interface perspective huge screens that force you to take a step back to see everything it's showing you are awful. And of course they can't fix that by resizing the usable 'window' of information as the screens were bought for cheap so have a pixel density so low that text would become unreadable when scaled down to fit. They're good for showing adverts and that's about it.
 

markymark2000

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The issue for me with journey planner versions are that for me, I already know the ticket that I want and I don't know what my return journey would be since I consider things such as delays so I have an idea but no confirmed return time home. What I'd much more prefer is two options for people. One for those who want journey planners and another for those who want simple ticket buying facilities. This is even more the case where it makes no difference what train you get (IE, only a single ticket type is available for you. Northwich to Knutsford as an example, post 9.30, there is only an 'Off Peak' ticket available, no point selling the anytime since it's more expensive and provides no benefit).



I'll say what is annoying, How is almost everyone united in how a TVM should be and yet TOCs are picking the machines which are so poor and TVM manufacturers don't seem to care about making the best machine for passengers in terms of ease of use, ease of getting a ticket. How can people be so united over something and yet it not be delivered. How can any TOC reasonably sign off some of the dismal designs, unless brown envelopes are exchanged. There is no excuse for it. At a time when supposedly we are meant to be encouraging people onto the network, TOCs deliver such poor standards which is enough to put anyone off using the network. It's counter intuitive.
 

Jim the Jim

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A better question would be "Why do TVM suppliers and/or TOCs insist on foisting journey planner interfaces on passengers rather than giving them a choice between the 'simple' interface if they know what ticket they want, and the journey planner if they need more hand-holding or want a ticket that requires reservations?"
Avanti still seem keen to have people buy tickets with reservations as much as possible. This gives them an extra way of making that happen. Of course this may not be want passengers want, and not all passengers are buying tickets for Avanti trains (or even necessarily trains for which reservations are available at all).
 

Deafdoggie

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How can any TOC reasonably sign off some of the dismal designs, unless brown envelopes are exchanged.
I think you've hit the nail on the head there. Whilst I'm not suggesting corruption of course, I guess it's more old boys network. I run a train company, my old school chum runs a TVM manufacturing company. Are the machines any good, do the public like them? What's that matter? My friend makes them.
 

Watershed

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I think you've hit the nail on the head there. Whilst I'm not suggesting corruption of course, I guess it's more old boys network. I run a train company, my old school chum runs a TVM manufacturing company. Are the machines any good, do the public like them? What's that matter? My friend makes them.
Well that's not a million miles off the truth here. Avanti is partly owned by Trenitalia and these TVMs use the same/similar software from IBM as what Trenitalia use in Italy, I understand. Similarly with the online booking engine and app.
 

Bletchleyite

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Avanti still seem keen to have people buy tickets with reservations as much as possible. This gives them an extra way of making that happen. Of course this may not be want passengers want, and not all passengers are buying tickets for Avanti trains (or even necessarily trains for which reservations are available at all).

To be fair planner based TVMs do decomplicate the fares structure a bit, so as a concept are in my view helpful. What I do not get is why the UI on them is generally so awful when the TOC mobile phone apps are largely fine, and all you really need to do is take one of those, scale it up to a larger screen (the screen size is one thing the Avanti TVMs have right in my view) and tweak the payment part of the process.

The Avanti mobile app is just fine, it is intuitive and gets reviews above 4.5/5 which shows people like it. Why have a different UI on the TVMs? I know they are Windows rather than Android/iOS so it won't be completely identical, but you can get pretty close.
 

markymark2000

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To be fair planner based TVMs do decomplicate the fares structure a bit, so as a concept are in my view helpful. What I do not get is why the UI on them is generally so awful when the TOC mobile phone apps are largely fine, and all you really need to do is take one of those, scale it up to a larger screen (the screen size is one thing the Avanti TVMs have right in my view) and tweak the payment part of the process.

The Avanti mobile app is just fine, it is intuitive and gets reviews above 4.5/5 which shows people like it. Why have a different UI on the TVMs? I know they are Windows rather than Android/iOS so it won't be completely identical, but you can get pretty close.
It helps in some ways but makes it more complex for others. Depends which style traveller you are, cautious or familiar. Cautious travellers who arrive 15 mins before a train is due may appreciate the journey planner aspect so they can be 100% sure they have the correct ticket and they can forward plan. A regular traveller who turns up with less time prior to their train, knows exactly which ticket they want, the journey planners can be the difference between you making and missing a train and it gets to a point of, why should people turn up 15 minutes early for a train just because of a ticket machine. People should be able to turn up 5 minutes before a train, get tickets and get the train (can't speak for all but Chesters announcements play 3 minutes before departure so turning up 5 minutes before the train gives 2 minutes for ticket purchasing then 3 minutes to get to the train).
 

Bletchleyite

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It helps in some ways but makes it more complex for others. Depends which style traveller you are, cautious or familiar. Cautious travellers who arrive 15 mins before a train is due may appreciate the journey planner aspect so they can be 100% sure they have the correct ticket and they can forward plan. A regular traveller who turns up with less time prior to their train, knows exactly which ticket they want, the journey planners can be the difference between you making and missing a train and it gets to a point of, why should people turn up 15 minutes early for a train just because of a ticket machine. People should be able to turn up 5 minutes before a train, get tickets and get the train (can't speak for all but Chesters announcements play 3 minutes before departure so turning up 5 minutes before the train gives 2 minutes for ticket purchasing then 3 minutes to get to the train).

I can get a ticket out of the Avanti app very quickly. In reality picking an outward train is a proxy for picking any TOC restriction, and it has an "open return" option.

Edit: I just tried the Avanti app on my iPad and, to be honest, the UI would be spot on for a TVM on a 12" ish portrait (iPad Pro) screen. It even does bike reservations. Not a lot wrong with it at all, unlike these awful TVMs. Even does season tickets intuitively.
 
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Starmill

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I can say one thing in their credit. They're the only TVM I've ever used where if your ToD code isn't recognised you get to edit it rather than having to type the whole thing in again.

Shame ToD is nearly dead...
 

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david1212

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A better question would be "Why do TVM suppliers and/or TOCs insist on foisting journey planner interfaces on passengers rather than giving them a choice between the 'simple' interface if they know what ticket they want, and the journey planner if they need more hand-holding or want a ticket that requires reservations?"

Back when the journey planner was being rolled out at my TOC, we had machines with the original interface and machines with the journey planner one loaded. Going through the purchase flow up to the point of being asked for payment took me three times as long on the journey planner interface...and that's as someone who knows what they're doing.

The issue for me with journey planner versions are that for me, I already know the ticket that I want and I don't know what my return journey would be since I consider things such as delays so I have an idea but no confirmed return time home. What I'd much more prefer is two options for people. One for those who want journey planners and another for those who want simple ticket buying facilities. This is even more the case where it makes no difference what train you get (IE, only a single ticket type is available for you. Northwich to Knutsford as an example, post 9.30, there is only an 'Off Peak' ticket available, no point selling the anytime since it's more expensive and provides no benefit).

I'll say what is annoying, How is almost everyone united in how a TVM should be and yet TOCs are picking the machines which are so poor and TVM manufacturers don't seem to care about making the best machine for passengers in terms of ease of use, ease of getting a ticket. How can people be so united over something and yet it not be delivered. How can any TOC reasonably sign off some of the dismal designs, unless brown envelopes are exchanged. There is no excuse for it. At a time when supposedly we are meant to be encouraging people onto the network, TOCs deliver such poor standards which is enough to put anyone off using the network. It's counter intuitive.


Exactly.

I keep meaning to have a play with a Chiltern TVM so if the booking office is closed I am not totally floundering.

Overall I wonder how many how many at a station TVM do not know at least the outbound trains(s) they want to use or simply want the next ? If the latter most like a shorter journey so a planner based TVM would only give one option. For the return purchase should be possible without commitment.

Where there are significant options e.g. West Coast any permitted or London Northwestern only clearly show the options and for each the next departure.

If with say 40 minutes of the off-peak time starting clearly show the time of the first off-peak departure and the fare.

Any TVM with planner based software should have the first screen being the option to use it or just select tickets.

.....
People should be able to turn up 5 minutes before a train, ... gives 2 minutes for ticket purchasing then 3 minutes to get to the train.

Easy at a booking office window if no queue or one ahead with a straightforward purchase. Unless VERY familiar much harder at any TVM.

As stated given rail needs every last passenger no part of the ticket purchasing should be a poor experience.
 
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Starmill

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To be fair planner based TVMs do decomplicate the fares structure a bit, so as a concept are in my view helpful.
They do, but some fares are excluded from them by this piece of design. For example, a TfW free child ticket as it is currently sold, or a ScotRail Group Save, are completely incompatible with the notion of choosing a journey by number and type of passengers travelling. So it result in significant overcharging. I don't think there's actually any benefit in decomplicating fares in this manner, it needs to be actually done properly.
 

Bletchleyite

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They do, but some fares are excluded from them by this piece of design. For example, a TfW free child ticket as it is currently sold, or a ScotRail Group Save, are completely incompatible with the notion of choosing a journey by number and type of passengers travelling. So it result in significant overcharging. I don't think there's actually any benefit in decomplicating fares in this manner, it needs to be actually done properly.

While I agree in principle, I don't see why, if you select the right number of passengers for such tickets, it can't offer them in a planner based UI.

You could have an "all passengers are travelling together at all times" yes/no to deal with whether GroupSave or similar should be offered or not.

Rangers and Rovers less so, but they could just be on another "tab" to search for by name, and obviously be offered for a journey (as the NRE site does) if cheaper than a point to point ticket.
 

johntea

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The amount of taps on a Northern TVM just to buy a standard day return to say Leeds is frustrating to say the least

I’ve often had to assist passengers in using them myself, some of whom even wrongly assumed they had to travel on the specific timed trains they were forced to select!

Also buying through an app I’ve often just tapped any old time for a return service, been allowed to get to payment then after all that receive an error ‘sorry return time can’t be earlier than outward time’ and make me start all over again!!!
 

Starmill

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While I agree in principle, I don't see why, if you select the right number of passengers for such tickets, it can't offer them in a planner based UI.
Because in Wales they've decided that free child tickets are a ticket type so can't be entered as a child, and in Scotland they've decided that a group ticket has a number of passengers of one so it cannot be entered as multiple passengers.

Trying to make (very resource-intensive!) workarounds for these two would result in things breaking for other types of ticket and only solve two out of the list of very problematic types of ticket.

They would need to be actually persuaded to completely change the way they've retailing these kinds of products. Something which technically nobody has the power to do anyway.
 

Bletchleyite

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Fair point. But even so, if we adopted single fare pricing and removed all that confusing junk entirely, a planner based UI is still useful to avoid non expert users getting invalid tickets, and if well implemented (as per most of the apps) doesn't make the purchase take too long.

The problem with these TVMs (the Northern ones, too) is not that they are planner based, it is that they are rubbish.

As I said above, the Avanti iPad app would work perfectly as a planner based TVM UI with a couple of minor tweaks.
 

cactustwirly

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Well that's not a million miles off the truth here. Avanti is partly owned by Trenitalia and these TVMs use the same/similar software from IBM as what Trenitalia use in Italy, I understand. Similarly with the online booking engine and app.

Trenitalia use S&B machines afaik. Just with their interface.
The S&B machines used by GTR, EMR, TfW and at smaller GWR stations are the best machines to use by far.
Takes literally 20 seconds to buy a ticket. Compared to the 2 minutes using the ridiculous LNER machines that force you to choose trains etc further complicating the process.
 

Starmill

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some of whom even wrongly assumed they had to travel on the specific timed trains they were forced to select!
Nearly everyone who isn't already familiar with British train tickets thinks that if you have to select a train you have to travel on it. That's not a difficult logical position at all, it's easy to see why that would be what people think.
 

cactustwirly

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Fair point. But even so, if we adopted single fare pricing and removed all that confusing junk entirely, a planner based UI is still useful to avoid non expert users getting invalid tickets, and if well implemented (as per most of the apps) doesn't make the purchase take too long.

The problem with these TVMs (the Northern ones, too) is not that they are planner based, it is that they are rubbish.

If you are buying a ticket to travel immediately there is no need to use a journey planner. As you will be buying something like an off peak return most likely.

What is needed is a clearer interface describing when off peak and super off peak tickets are valid. Not these stupid journey planners that are complicated and take ages.
 

Bletchleyite

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If you are buying a ticket to travel immediately there is no need to use a journey planner. As you will be buying something like an off peak return most likely.

What is needed is a clearer interface describing when off peak and super off peak tickets are valid. Not these stupid journey planners that are complicated and take ages.

With a well designed UI like the Avanti app they don't take ages.

The problem with time restrictions is that they are often not easy to read or remember. Yes, fix that, but TVM designers don't have the ability to do that, but they do have the ability to design a decent UI.
 

Starmill

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If you are buying a ticket to travel immediately there is no need to use a journey planner. As you will be buying something like an off peak return most likely.

What is needed is a clearer interface describing when off peak and super off peak tickets are valid. Not these stupid journey planners that are complicated and take ages.
There have been plenty of times when I've used an old style S&B TVM to get a ticket for a train that's coming in less than 5 minutes. This usually occurs when I can see that the previous train going where I want to is running late and it'd be an advantage to me to catch it, or where I've arrived at the station with enough margin for error for my intended train that I'm just in time for the departure 20 minutes earlier. I can think of many times I'd have missed a train if we were relying on these TVMs now as then. As it happens most of these journeys are the kind of one where leaving time for buying a ticket at all is prehistoric - Leeds to Ilkley is the example I have in mind, and that should be straightforward Pay as you Go.
 

Bletchleyite

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I think that this is also true. All of them need too many taps.

gov.uk is awful for that, as it asks for one thing at a time rather than presenting a form to complete, thus making anything take 5 times as long. I hate it with a passion.

The apps generally minimise taps by completing some assumed defaults (e.g. travelling now, one adult) but making it easy to change them.
 

cactustwirly

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With a well designed UI like the Avanti app they don't take ages.

The problem with time restrictions is that they are often not easy to read or remember. Yes, fix that, but TVM designers don't have the ability to do that, but they do have the ability to design a decent UI.

That's the trainline app with a different skin.

It's good yes, but doesn't beat typing your destination and selecting off peak return for example, or selecting your ticket from the 20 most popular ticket types. That feature is very handy such as buying a travelcard in the south east as it's almost always one of the popular ticket types.
Literally only a couple out taps and out your ticket comes
 

Bletchleyite

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That's the trainline app with a different skin.

It's good yes, but doesn't beat typing your destination and selecting off peak return for example, or selecting your ticket from the 20 most popular ticket types. That feature is very handy such as buying a travelcard in the south east as it's almost always one of the popular ticket types.
Literally only a couple out taps and out your ticket comes

The trouble with that is that occasional users are baffled by it. Perhaps an "expert mode" could be offered where you press "I know what ticket I want" and get the full list to choose from, with something printed on the ticket indicating you had chosen to do this and thus take full responsibility for your purchase's validity, like the old booking office "restrictions advised" stamp used when you asked for something specific not valid for immediate travel.

But with the Avanti app it only takes 2 extra taps over an S&B machine - one tap on open return, one tap on a train time for your outward, then it proceeds pretty much the same. And that "sanity check" stops someone buying an Avanti Only ticket and thinking they can use it on a Northern train, say.
 

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They would need to be actually persuaded to completely change the way they've retailing these kinds of products. Something which technically nobody has the power to do anyway.
It's even worse in the case of Scotrail, as they USED TO do it a nice clean way with their "Kids Go Free" tickets - there were two different ticket types, one for 1 adult travelling and one for 2 adults travelling, each allowing 1-4 additional children if I remember correctly. And these tickets "just worked" in a journey planner interface. But they got rid of them in the last couple of years and now have a special standalone "Kid with Adult" ticket that needs lots of complicated journey planner logic to make it work, which also seems to completely overlook the fact that most journey planners are limited to offering the same ticket type to all passengers in the group.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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All this shows what a mountain GBR has to climb to establish a unified ticketing system.
Currently we seem to be diverging in TOC practice, and some of the long-distance TOCs allegedly will retain their own way of doing things.
 
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