New build rolling stock for charters - is it feasible? What would it look like?

[JonathanH]

No, they don't have electric heat, but it was fitted to Mark 1s that were originally steam heat only, so why would this be any different?

Cost of installation?

Fitting ETH won't be difficult. I went for 153/155/156 because of the end door layout, which is much better than the Mark 3 EMU layout, the opening windows at good spacing and the gangways at both ends of every vehicle.

I'd just get two end cars from a 321 and 10 intermediate trailers to form up a 12-car rake of coaches. Put a generator in what was the driving cab end and have the rest as seating and kitchen cars.

However, even that comes with significant costs - eg refitting a kitchen, buffet counter, finding suitable seats, the list is probably endless.

 

[DB]

Cost of installation?


I'd just get two end cars from a 321 and 10 intermediate trailers to form up a 12-car rake of coaches. Put a generator in what was the driving cab end and have the rest as seating and kitchen cars.

However, even that comes with significant costs - eg refitting a kitchen, buffet counter, finding suitable seats, the list is probably endless.

The door positions are not good for charter use.

 

[JonathanH]

The door positions are not good for charter use.

Who says? They break the vehicle down into thirds. The seating doesn't have to be laid out in the current pattern. Sightlines are a bit junk though aren't they - maybe wait for 465s to be available?

 

[DB]

Who says? They break the vehicle down into thirds. The seating doesn't have to be laid out in the current pattern. Sightlines are a bit junk though aren't they - maybe wait for 465s to be available?

There's a lot of wasted space, and no vestibules to to keep the cold out in winter. Something with end doors would be far better.

 

[GlitterUnicorn]

There's a lot of wasted space, and no vestibules to to keep the cold out in winter. Something with end doors would be far better.

I suppose if you're going to the extent of reengineering EMU coaches for steam trains, you could install vestibules, and change them from sliding doors to slamdoor.

Whether reengineering EMUs is a good idea in the first place remains to be seen though.

 

[Journeyman]

I suppose if you're going to the extent of reengineering EMU coaches for steam trains, you could install vestibules, and change them from sliding doors to slamdoor.

Seriously?!?

 

[Irascible]

Ouch. Better sucking up the rebuild cost of corroded mk3s than try a full rsbuild of a 40yo EMU... think that'd make replacing sprinter engines with ETH look like peanuts.

 

[GlitterUnicorn]

Seriously?!?

Well it seems like a silly idea to convert EMU trailers in the first place to be honest.

If you're going to go that far why not?

 

[Bletchleyite]

The door positions are not good for charter use.

Unlike, say, Mk1s, which have a door right in the middle?

 

[JonathanH]

There's a lot of wasted space, and no vestibules to to keep the cold out in winter. Something with end doors would be far better.

Yes, although unfortunately there isn't any end-doored 20m stock.

Unlike, say, Mk1s, which have a door right in the middle?

All sealed up and used for storage - maintenance liability not to do so.

 

[Journeyman]

Unlike, say, Mk1s, which have a door right in the middle?

But are in a vestibule, and now, in most cases, are sealed up, and the space used for litter bins or storage.

 

[awsnews]

Of all the unfeasible ideas there have been in "Speculative ideas" - and there have been a few - then new build stock for charters is one of the most spectacularly unachievable of the lot.

If you're lucky they work 40 days per year. The cost of a new vehicle is a 7 digit number. Then there's the cost of clearance and acceptance.

Don't bother going to a leasing company to ask for finance, they'll laugh themselves silly!

Some sets might only manage 40 days a year but then there are activities such as the Jacobite which uses 2 sets for in excess of 200 days combined. The stock no doubt appears on other charter work outside that period as well so the economics are in a different category entirely.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Some sets might only manage 40 days a year but then there are activities such as the Jacobite which uses 2 sets for in excess of 200 days combined. The stock no doubt appears on other charter work outside that period as well so the economics are in a different category entirely.

And if I have understood the nature of (a) this thread and (b) the Jacobite correctly, that's the sort of train where the passengers want fine dining and a pretty view, rather than to smell the steam and hear the locomotive. So it would need something like refurbished Mk 3s, rather than something with opening windows and slam doors.

To be slightly less cynical, any new build proposal would surely have to look at (a) what potential passengers would want and (b) what the authorities would tolerate. On that basis, I'm not convinced that there's a huge demand for slam doors, unless it's so people can hang out of the window. But I am convinced that following the two accidents in the last few years, the authorities would not allow slam door - because of the risks of hanging out of the window. So we can write that off. Opening ventilators which would let you smell the smoke might be easier to deliver.

 

[JonathanH]

And if I have understood the nature of (a) this thread and (b) the Jacobite correctly, that's the sort of train where the passengers want fine dining and a pretty view, rather than to smell the steam and hear the locomotive. So it would need something like refurbished Mk 3s, rather than something with opening windows and slam doors.

Jacobite doesn't have fine dining - you can book a picnic box.

I suspect the smell and sound is a sales point, as is that the train looks like something that was in the Harry Potter films.

 

[Journeyman]

And if I have understood the nature of (a) this thread and (b) the Jacobite correctly, that's the sort of train where the passengers want fine dining and a pretty view, rather than to smell the steam and hear the locomotive. So it would need something like refurbished Mk 3s, rather than something with opening windows and slam doors.

The Jacobite isn't about fine dining at all, because it isn't provided - it's specifically sold as a steam train journey, so I'd say at least some opening windows are important. Mark 3s wouldn't be appropriate at all.

It attracts an odd mixture - the Harry Potter connection is huge, but it also attracts enthusiasts there for the haulage, as well as appealing to the general tourist market. If you look at their TripAdvisor reviews, it's quite clear some people don't know what to expect at all - one review claimed the train was "absolutely filthy" and that the ScotRail service was much better, implying the Jacobite was some sort of deliberate ripoff!

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Jacobite doesn't have fine dining - you can book a picnic box.

I suspect the smell and sound is a sales point, as is that the train looks like something that was in the Harry Potter films.

The Jacobite isn't about fine dining at all, because it isn't provided - it's specifically sold as a steam train journey, so I'd say at least some opening windows are important. Mark 3s wouldn't be appropriate at all.

It attracts an odd mixture - the Harry Potter connection is huge, but it also attracts enthusiasts there for the haulage, as well as appealing to the general tourist market. If you look at their TripAdvisor reviews, it's quite clear some people don't know what to expect at all - one review claimed the train was "absolutely filthy" and that the ScotRail service was much better, implying the Jacobite was some sort of deliberate ripoff!

OK. I haven't understood the nature of the Jacobite. As you were.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The Jacobite isn't about fine dining at all, because it isn't provided - it's specifically sold as a steam train journey, so I'd say at least some opening windows are important. Mark 3s wouldn't be appropriate at all.

I think there are basically two types of charter:

1. A journey where the locomotive (be that steam or diesel) is the thing of interest. With this type comfort is of low consideration, but being able to hear the locomotive and smell the smoke is important - hence opening windows.

2. A journey where the service (e.g. fine dining) or scenery are the thing of interest. With this type, aircon, large windows and high seat comfort are fairly valuable, making Mk3 FOs like the ones used on the S&C very appropriate.

You do get a bit of an overlap (e.g. being steam hauled along the scenic WHL extension) of course.

For the former it probably still makes sense to keep "Trigger's broom"-ing Mk1s and early Mk2s, including fitting CETs, anti-override and door locking if that is needed, and potentially modifying windows so you can't stick things out of them, e.g. by adding a mesh or bars over them and sealing the droplights (Mk1s already have internal handles). The approach to wheelchair access needn't be the same as the mainline because staffing is very high; one option is to use BFOs or BSOs with access cut from the van area into a dedicated area with PRM toilet added. Mk1 coaches are a very simple thing and can essentially be repaired forever.

For the latter, if you were going to build new, Swiss-style panoramic coaches would be a good choice.

 

[Journeyman]

As has been pointed out already, main line Mark 1s don't have internal handles, although adding them, and some sort of central looking system, wouldn't be difficult.

 

[D6975]

If you've got money to throw at it, then something like this would be nice for scenic routes too (Kyle, Mallaig etc.)