New CrossCountry Cardiff - Edinburgh service: possible routes/traction?

[Zontar]

Does anyone have any update on how this is progressing? Any ideas on route or traction proposals?

 

[Envoy]

My understanding is that the current 9.45am Cardiff to Nottingham will be extended to York > Newcastle and Edinburgh. Another one service a day will operate the same route southbound.

However, a rival operator is also hoping to start services on the Cardiff to Edinburgh route via Doncaster & Newcastle. See:> https://www.railtech.com/all/2023/11/07/another-cardiff-edinburgh-rail-service-proposal/

"You wait forever for a Cardiff-Edinburgh train operator – then two come along at once. Aspirant open access operator, Grand Union, has initiated industry consultations for its ambitious plan to operate five daily services connecting Cardiff and Edinburgh."

 

[Zontar]

I had heard whispers of WCML, possibly avoiding the route grand central want but not sure how much truth in it.

 

[dk1]

I had heard whispers of WCML, possibly avoiding the route grand central want but not sure how much truth in it.

XC do not sign or operate the WCML north of Crewe.

 

[BrianW]

My understanding is that the current 9.45am Cardiff to Nottingham will be extended to York > Newcastle and Edinburgh. Another one service a day will operate the same route southbound.

However, a rival operator is also hoping to start services on the Cardiff to Edinburgh route via Doncaster & Newcastle. See:> https://www.railtech.com/all/2023/11/07/another-cardiff-edinburgh-rail-service-proposal/

Sounds like a 'Capitals United' service; maybe 'The Devolution'?

 

[duffield]

My understanding is that the current 9.45am Cardiff to Nottingham will be extended to York > Newcastle and Edinburgh. Another one service a day will operate the same route southbound.

However, a rival operator is also hoping to start services on the Cardiff to Edinburgh route via Doncaster & Newcastle. See:> https://www.railtech.com/all/2023/11/07/another-cardiff-edinburgh-rail-service-proposal/

XC can't even operate the current Nottingham to Birmingham/Cardiff service without regular cancellations.

 

[Zontar]

XC do not sign or operate the WCML north of Crewe.

Maybe that's their intention?

 

[WelshBluebird]

My assumption was that they would just an extend an existing Bristol to Edinburgh service to start at Cardiff instead and run through the tunnel to Bristol before picking up the existing route.

Certainly that would be the least effort change, so interesting that at least some of the discussion may be to extend a Cardiff to Nottingham service instead (which obviously is a larger change).

 

[Russel]

My understanding is that the current 9.45am Cardiff to Nottingham will be extended to York > Newcastle and Edinburgh. Another one service a day will operate the same route southbound.

Would the Derby - Nottingham portion be removed for it to go straight up to Sheffield from Derby as per the rest of the XC long distance services?

 

[JonathanH]

My understanding is that the current 9.45am Cardiff to Nottingham will be extended to York > Newcastle and Edinburgh. Another one service a day will operate the same route southbound.

How would that be balanced? If the 0945 Cardiff to Nottingham went to Edinburgh, there would be a gap in the Derby to Nottingham service, and no train to form the return to Birmingham. Also, how would an off-pattern service from Derby to Edinburgh be pathed?

 

[dk1]

Maybe that's their intention?

How would that work?

Why would that be their intention?

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

My understanding is that the current 9.45am Cardiff to Nottingham will be extended to York > Newcastle and Edinburgh.

Not via Nottingham (involving a reversal and currently foreign territory to XC between Alfreton and Nottingham) though right? Truncated at Derby and then extended north, surely?

 

[Efini92]

How would that work?

Why would that be their intention?

Would be one hell of a reversal at derby

 

[YorkRailFan]

Maybe that's their intention?

Running diesel Voyagers under the wires from Crewe to Edinburgh? XC has disabled tilting on their Voyagers (so they would only do it with AWC's Voyagers which have tilting enabled) meaning they would be slower on curves as well. Would it be worth it to train crews between Crewe and Edinburgh on the WCML just for a few daily services?

 

[dk1]

Would be one hell of a reversal at derby

Wouldn’t it just lol.

 

[Parallel]

CrossCountry have operated a service between Cardiff and Edinburgh before, on a bank holiday where they used to run a Voyager to Manchester via Bristol in the mornings. On this particular occasion, I think the line via Filton was closed so the service still ran but took an earlier path up towards Birmingham and continued to Edinburgh.

I personally don’t really much point in this, the current performance of the Cardiff to Nottinghams is atrocious, and Cardiff generally gets a half hourly service to Bristol Parkway, where you have a same platform change for XC services to Edinburgh.

 

[hexagon789]

CrossCountry have operated a service between Cardiff and Edinburgh before, on a bank holiday where they used to run a Voyager to Manchester via Bristol in the mornings. On this particular occasion, I think the line via Filton was closed so the service still ran but took an earlier path up towards Birmingham and continued to Edinburgh.

Virgin XC used to operate a two-hourly Dundee to Cardiff Central service.

 

[YorkRailFan]

CrossCountry have operated a service between Cardiff and Edinburgh before, on a bank holiday where they used to run a Voyager to Manchester via Bristol in the mornings. On this particular occasion, I think the line via Filton was closed so the service still ran but took an earlier path up towards Birmingham and continued to Edinburgh.

I personally don’t really much point in this, the current performance of the Cardiff to Nottinghams is atrocious, and Cardiff generally gets a half hourly service to Bristol Parkway, where you have a same platform change for XC services to Edinburgh.

Or one can get the existing XC service to Birmingham and change for an AWC service to Edinburgh up the WCML. Its quicker to go up the WCML compared to getting XC going across the Midlands and ECML.

 

[The Planner]

Maybe that's their intention?

No

 

[JonathanH]

Virgin XC used to operate a two-hourly Dundee to Cardiff Central service.

Dundee and Cardiff are far enough apart that only three services in each direction actually went the distance (one through to Aberdeen) - https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...s-the-intended-timetable.220559/#post-5244363

 

[TheBigD]

Unless it has changed, the plan is...

Northbound
The current 0945 Cardiff-Nottingham to be split at Birmingham. A Voyager will operate the Cardiff to Birmingham section and attach to the 0825 Plymouth-Edinburgh at Birmingham.

Southbound
The 1305 Edinburgh-Plymouth will split at Gloucester with one set continuing to Plymouth, and the other to Cardiff.

As a reaction, the 0606 Nottingham-Cardiff will also be Voyager operated.
No idea what XC are planning on doing with the 170 prior to it working the 1149 Birmingham-Nottingham.

 

[Ridercross]

Unless it has changed, the plan is...

Northbound
The current 0945 Cardiff-Nottingham to be split at Birmingham. A Voyager will operate the Cardiff to Birmingham section and attach to the 0825 Plymouth-Edinburgh at Birmingham.

Southbound
The 1305 Edinburgh-Plymouth will split at Gloucester with one set continuing to Plymouth, and the other to Cardiff.

As a reaction, the 0606 Nottingham-Cardiff will also be Voyager operated.
No idea what XC are planning on doing with the 170 prior to it working the 1149 Birmingham-Nottingham.

Yes, that was the plan I saw when this was first announced. I remember it because I though the downgrading of the 0827 ex PLY from a double Voyager to a single Voyager between PLY and BHM was not exactly a positive for that section of the journey!

 

[swt_passenger]

As a reaction, the 0606 Nottingham-Cardiff will also be Voyager operated.
No idea what XC are planning on doing with the 170 prior to it working the 1149 Birmingham-Nottingham.

Perhaps there’ll be a knock on change to the once a day Nottingham to Bournemouth southbound only service, eg it might go back to being a 170 to New St, and the Bournemouth service could start at New St as it presumably did before?

 

[31160]

My vote for traction would be 2 x class 50s Cardiff to Birmingham New st for either a 86 or 87 to Carstairs for a portion split and a Haymarket loco to Edinburgh

 

[Zontar]

So we have xc, grand central and grand union all wanting to operate up to Scotland.
They all must see some benefits...

 

[JonathanH]

So we have xc, grand central and grand union all wanting to operate up to Scotland.
They all must see some benefits...

XC aren't running any extra trains to Scotland, just changing the way they operate one of their services.

 

[gerryuk]

For a open access operator would it not be more financially viable going via Leeds after Sheffield, than Doncaster?

 

[RobShipway]

My assumption was that they would just an extend an existing Bristol to Edinburgh service to start at Cardiff instead and run through the tunnel to Bristol before picking up the existing route.

Certainly that would be the least effort change, so interesting that at least some of the discussion may be to extend a Cardiff to Nottingham service instead (which obviously is a larger change).

My understanding was that the service would start in Bristol, go to Cardiff and then operate as a Cardiff Nottingham Service, but then go on to Edingburgh. I have not been able to find it, but I believe that there has already been a thread on this subject.

However, in the post by @Peterthegreat in thread https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...more-rolling-stock.249456/page-9#post-6415865 he states the following:

I doubt very much that the current Cardiff to Nottingham service would be extended to Edinburgh. As I and others have said elsewhere it would seem more likely that one of the existing early morning Bristol to Edinburgh trains would start back at Cardiff. (Reverse in the evenng)

 

[Russel]

Thinking more about this proposed service, I'm starting to question why it's being considered at all, especially given the talk of it going via Nottingham....

A once a day direct service taking quite a long winded route, given it'll tie up recourses that XC could put to better use elsewhere, what's the point?

To me, this is the same as the services past Plymouth/Edinburgh to places like Penzance and Aberdeen, these are usually lightly loaded from experience, just cull them and leave it to GWR/ScotRail, XC need to be concentrating on their core services...

 

[RobShipway]

Thinking more about this proposed service, I'm starting to question why it's being considered at all, especially given the talk of it going via Nottingham....

A once a day direct service taking quite a long winded route, given it'll tie up recourses that XC could put to better use elsewhere, what's the point?

To me, this is the same as the services past Plymouth/Edinburgh to places like Penzance and Aberdeen, these are usually lightly loaded from experience, just cull them and leave it to GWR/ScotRail, XC need to be concentrating on their core services...

As I mention in my post above it is probably more likely that the current Plymouth/Bristol to Edingburgh service get routed via Cardiff, than the Cardiff - Nottingham service gets extended to Edingburgh.