New Driver Assessments - Beware

[Bluebri]

Is what you are suggesting that you might have actually done enough for an enhanced pass in the tests, but it was only ever counted as a standard pass, because the other TOC (Northern) only count the lower pass mark?

I have no idea and that was all I was trying to say. Didn't mean to come across conceited, but I suppose yes, but only in theory. The trouble with the process is that anyone who passes has done well, period, so it makes it hard to understand where you could have gone 'wrong' as there is no feedback or marks given. Just to clarify, I am fine that I haven't made the grade for TPE, but find the mystery about where I fell short niggling away. The irritation comes from conflicting and ambiguous information coming from various sources. I just think the whole process needn't be so guarded.

 

[SPADTrap]

I have no idea and that was all I was trying to say. Didn't mean to come across conceited, but I suppose yes, but only in theory. The trouble with the process is that anyone who passes has done well, period, so it makes it hard to understand where you could have gone 'wrong' as there is no feedback or marks given. Just to clarify, I am fine that I haven't made the grade for TPE, but find the mystery about where I fell short niggling away. The irritation comes from conflicting and ambiguous information coming from various sources. I just think the whole process needn't be so guarded.

Great post - totally agree!

 

[E&W Lucas]

As external candidates are more of a risk

This post deserves a serious response.

All of the trainees at my TOC, who have failed the training over the last approx 10 years, have been internal candidates.

Of those subsequently removed from driving, all of those who have come via the Driver 2000 process, trained by the company, have been internal candidates.

On my own driver training course, the (great) chap who is now confined to a set of sidings, after his 3rd SPAD, was the only internal candidate.

I work with plenty of excellent drivers, who have progressed within the industry, and will always help others to progress. However, driving is a significant step up in intensity, compared to other jobs in the industry. I would suggest that those who fall by the wayside, have failed to recognise this. Their prior "experience", has not in fact equipped them, in the way that someone working to the pressure of the "outside world" will have been equipped.

Competitive selection has been my experience for all of my working life. I can't understand why people are expressing surprise that employers are screening, based on the results of aptitude tests.

 

[ultra4]

Just because I can't count lifts while circling Indian restuarnts quicker than other people really dosent mean I will be an incompetent driver

I like that
Some "intelligent different" people who invented it, must obviously think that such vital, life tasks as counting lifts and circling curry houses highlight aptitudes of aspiring trainee train drivers.
Having spoken to the one of the assessors, their point of view is pretty much the same.
However neither us nor them have any infuence on this matter.

 

[Mattmatt]

Having recently taken the 'new' test and failed at the 'two handed' joy stick test; where I was classed as too slow.... even with 100% accuracy with Northern. It is so massively devastating to pass everything else & yet to fail on such a simple test. (I have since found out that you have to make mistakes to speed up & finish in time)

However; I'm an internal candidate & if any of you have been through the process of late you will have noticed that the 2nd stage tests were completed in such a way that some candidates had an unfair advantage. I shall explain....

Once passing the first stage, where everyone was in a huge room 30+ in some cases, you move onto the 2nd stage where there is a maximum of 6; in my case and others, the OPC assessor spit you into two groups of 3, generally 3 internal & 3 external. The 3 internals did the assessment the 'correct' way, i.e. starting with the computer tests, but the caveat being that if you fail any part of the computer tests you wont go on to sit the interview...; but the other 3 would start by having their interview & go on to complete the full set of tests. I registered my complaint there & then & was told unless you want to wait until late evening for the interview this is way we are doing this. I've also taken this up with Northern HR, who so far have just ignored my issue; [I know i failed the test; but that's not my issue; it's that I wasn't in a level playing field & wasn't able to complete the test in a way that others did!]

But I have been assured that Northern DO NOT have an enhanced pass rate on these tests (They previously had the highest enhanced score of any TOC on the old tests) If you've passed with Northern; there's every chance you'll get it...

 

[benno79]

That's interesting your the first person I've heard of that has failed anything on the second stage of the new assessments other than the mmi.

When I sat the second stage there were four of us. Because one of the assessors was off sick three of us did the computer tests first while one did the mmi first.

 

[Fred Dinenage]

How is having the interview first an advantage? Would you have somehow been energised into performing better with the sticks?

There seems to be a lot of sour grapes on this forum regarding people like myself ( external candidates) who have the audacity to apply for jobs in the rail industry, not from everyone I must add. Maybe we should wear yellow bibs whilst attending assessments so you know who to avoid?

 

[peamix]

How is having the interview first an advantage? Would you have somehow been energised into performing better with the sticks?

I recently sat stage 2 and had to do the interview first and I found it hard knowing that however great I was with the answers it may have all been in vain if I were to subsequently cock up the tests afterwards! If anything I felt more under pressure.

 

[DunfordBridge]

Basically, MattMatt has missed out on vital experience of the structured interview but the externals (such as myself when I progress with applications) have been able to gain this experience regardless, if my understanding is correct.

MattMatt now only has one life increasing the pressure on him for next time to pass the MMI which for people such as myself, who are not very good with interviews, possibly the hardest stage of the process.

 

[Fred Dinenage]

Mattmatt said some of the candidates HAD an advantage, not will have in future interviews.

 

[Beveridges]

Companies are more often than ever only selecting candidates with the highest passes. A pass is often not good enough. Some people complain but how else would they do it?
Better to pick the top scores from the assessment stage than the top scores at interviews.
Assessments are a far better measure of ability than Interview.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

T
Of those subsequently removed from driving, all of those who have come via the Driver 2000 process, trained by the company, have been internal candidates.

This does not suprise me. Internals have a far easier time during the selection process than externals, psychos excepted. This increases the chances of people without the ability getting through.

 

[Louby]

I'm external and had my computer tests first? Don't think they split it as external and internal, it's a simple case of somebody at some point will be sitting about for a few hours if they didn't split the group and do some of the mmi first

 

[Sidious]

I have no idea and that was all I was trying to say. Didn't mean to come across conceited, but I suppose yes, but only in theory. The trouble with the process is that anyone who passes has done well, period, so it makes it hard to understand where you could have gone 'wrong' as there is no feedback or marks given. Just to clarify, I am fine that I haven't made the grade for TPE, but find the mystery about where I fell short niggling away. The irritation comes from conflicting and ambiguous information coming from various sources. I just think the whole process needn't be so guarded.

I didn't take you as being conceited at all Bluebri - please forgive me if that was the tone in which my question came across - it wasn't intended that way.

You could *in theory* ask for full disclosure of all information which the company hold on you under the Data Protection Act. However this is a very risky strategy because it could potentially result in you being blacklisted by companies which use the same assessment company in the future. It wouldn't be something I would recommend unless you was in the position where you had failed twice, and was facing a permanent ban on re-applying and needed grounds to appeal.

 

[MichaelAMW]

What I'm saying is an guard with 10 years good service for the company get absolutely no advantages over an external candidate that they have no idea what there like apart from the can circle restaurants quickly!
I can't see there reasoning, there obsessed with assessments and stats, but they don't tell a whole picture.
A 21 year old straight out of colleague/uni will probably be better at tests than a 40 year old guard but does that mean they will be better driver no not really.
I'm saying they need to look at all elements and not just assessments results and give internal candidates a break
Internal candidates : mandatory pass
External candidates : enhanced pass

(Slightly late reply...)

I would have thought that you *do* have an advantage as an internal candidate, just not in the objective aptitude tests. As others have said, to the extent that you can ever boil it all down to a couple of sessions with tests and an interview, the general view is that these assessments provide a useful selection tool. Assuming you could pass these, which puts you in the group of those likely to do well, you then have a great advantage as an internal candidate when it comes to the final interview: you know the company, you know the area, you are already safety-critical trained, you know (or can find!) the company's aims and objectives etc.

 

[DunfordBridge]

Mattmatt said some of the candidates HAD an advantage, not will have in future interviews.

I prefer to look at this from a long term view. I have no idea what the figures are for the new driver tests but I think it will be safe to assume that a significant proportion will not pass the tests on the first attempt. Some of those that do fail on the first occasion will hopefully return as stronger candidates on the second and final occasion.

The playing field is never going to be totally level otherwise the strongest candidate will not emerge, but it is better if the differences between candidates are derived from natural causes.

Admittedly, I am looking at this from a personal perspective. Mentioned this a few times now but interviews are not my strong point, whilst the converse may be true for other candidates.

In retrospect, when I talked about adhering to procedures in my last structured interview, I probably talked about how adhering to procedures was conducive to saving time and money in my working experience which was certainly not the most apt answer for working in a railway environment.

 

[Red18]

I applied as an external and sat both 1st and 2nd stage assessments along with internals and we all followed the same process and sat the tests in the same order. I suspect the only time the mmi will be done with some while others do the comp tests is to save time and get as many candidates through the tests in one session. There were 3 of us when I did stage 2 and as the last person to be interviewed I had to wait over 2 hours. With 6 people doing the mmi at the same it would be a 5 hour wait for some poor soul.

Oh, and apart from a few general basic questions about the company at the very first interview (as you would expect with any job interview) there was never any need for specialist insider knowledge that would benefit an internal candidate.
At no point did I ever feel at a disadvantage.

 

[Bluebri]

I hate to say that I was right, but....

The rail industry has recently introduced new Trainee Trainee Train driver assessments.

If you previously sat the old assessments and failed after the two attempt limitation you can now reapply. First TransPennine Express have decided to 'wipe the slate clean' in terms of assessment history. With the old process FTPE always adopted enhanced assessment scores, above the minimum standard, as did many other Train Operating Company.

With the new process FTPE have simply adopted the same principle, they have requirements above the minimum standard. At the moment this is not broken into Borderline Pass, Pass, Good Pass as the old process but is simply have the scores met the enhanced standard of FTPE.

At the moment FTPE have decided not to move forward with those applicants who have sat the new assessments with other TOCs as they cannot easily establish whether there assessment met the enhanced standards of FTPE. How ever if the six month reassessment window has passed applicants can retake the assessments through FTPE


Just got this email from FTPE. Now I am p*****d off. For all I know, I had met the level and have been dismissed out of hand, simply because I took and passed the test with another TOC. To add insult to injury, I have met some of the guys in the Lime Street depot and they are spot on. Seems like an exceptional depot with a great bunch of lads. Fuming doesn't even cut it.

 

[carriageline]

Mate, your letting it get to you far too much. Leave it and move on. You have the scores under your belt, you WILL get on eventually, it's just a matter of when, not if. Persistence does pay off eventually, this place shows that.

It's "only" a job, there is no need to get worked up over it . Don't think about "what it", it just wasn't to be, and that is that.

 

[Bluebri]

Mate, your letting it get to you far too much. Leave it and move on. You have the scores under your belt, you WILL get on eventually, it's just a matter of when, not if. Persistence does pay off eventually, this place shows that.

It's "only" a job, there is no need to get worked up over it . Don't think about "what it", it just wasn't to be, and that is that.

That's a fair assessment and point, but this is a particularly difficult depot to get with First and openings there will very quickly become 'dead mans shoes'. I have no doubt that I will get on as a driver eventually. But this does not stop me feeling frustrated, as it is not that I didn't get the required standard, just that essentially, no-one can be bothered checking whether I have or not. It shows a glaring flaw in this new style assessment, as I am not allowed to sit another assessment within 6 months, despite me passing and am apparently now limited to the opportunities I can apply for during this time. Although there seems to be plenty of vacancies knocking about, the positions are still limited, especially when you take into account travel to depot limits, which actually does not give me many places to consider. It is even more frustrating, as I could not get past the application stage with Northern, who now have a large talent pool.

I could go on, as unfortunately, I am a bit 'raw' about this. Not to take anything away from your point, as I will, in time, move on and not worry about it and also be more philosophical about it. But I am sure if this happened to you and you were in my personal situation, you would be equally annoyed at what appears to be a missed opportunity due to bureaucracy.

 

[DunfordBridge]

I like that
Some "intelligent different" people who invented it, must obviously think that such vital, life tasks as counting lifts and circling curry houses highlight aptitudes of aspiring trainee train drivers.
Having spoken to the one of the assessors, their point of view is pretty much the same.
However neither us nor them have any infuence on this matter.

I thought the SCAAT test was a pretty good measure of multi-tasking ability and was more demanding than circling off restaurants. The SCAAT test does not have the effect of random distraction however.

Personally, I think it would easier to become accustomed to the new map search test with practice than with the SCAAT test. I am surprised that the SIMKAP test from Schuhfried test was never selected ultimately.

 

[Bert and Ernie]

I hate to say that I was right, but....

The rail industry has recently introduced new Trainee Trainee Train driver assessments.

If you previously sat the old assessments and failed after the two attempt limitation you can now reapply. First TransPennine Express have decided to 'wipe the slate clean' in terms of assessment history. With the old process FTPE always adopted enhanced assessment scores, above the minimum standard, as did many other Train Operating Company.

With the new process FTPE have simply adopted the same principle, they have requirements above the minimum standard. At the moment this is not broken into Borderline Pass, Pass, Good Pass as the old process but is simply have the scores met the enhanced standard of FTPE.

At the moment FTPE have decided not to move forward with those applicants who have sat the new assessments with other TOCs as they cannot easily establish whether there assessment met the enhanced standards of FTPE. How ever if the six month reassessment window has passed applicants can retake the assessments through FTPE





Just got this email from FTPE. Now I am p*****d off. For all I know, I had met the level and have been dismissed out of hand, simply because I took and passed the test with another TOC. To add insult to injury, I have met some of the guys in the Lime Street depot and they are spot on. Seems like an exceptional depot with a great bunch of lads. Fuming doesn't even cut it.

Did tpe send you this ? I thought they checked your scores against northern s. I'm in the same position as you I can't understand what's going on. WTF! They told me they transferred the raw data over but I didn't reached the enhanced standard. Is this not true ?

 

[Fred Dinenage]

Probably some external candidate's fault.

 

[ultra4]

I am surprised that the SIMKAP test from Schuhfried test was never selected ultimately.

It is a brilliant tool indeed.

 

[Bluebri]

Did tpe send you this ? I thought they checked your scores against northern s. I'm in the same position as you I can't understand what's going on. WTF! They told me they transferred the raw data over but I didn't reached the enhanced standard. Is this not true ?

Yes. The email is directly copied and pasted as I received it, totally un-edited minus the names etc. Came straight from FTPE HR.

 

[Bert and Ernie]

Yes. The email is directly copied and pasted as I received it, totally un-edited minus the names etc. Came straight from FTPE HR.

That's strange they told me they had transferred my raw data across to TPE s
Standard and that I only reached a mandatory requirement on one of the tests!

Hmmm very strange