"New Five Pound Note Not Suitable For Vegetarians"

[RichmondCommu]

It doesn't just affect Vegetarians and Vegans of course. I can't imagine a devout Hindu would be best pleased using money with trace amounts of dead cow in it, or similarly devout Jews and Muslims with trace amounts of pig. Obviously it's not in the same league as trace amounts of allergens, which could prove fatal to people, but if it can be avoided (eg a synthetic version instead of an 'organic' version) at minimal cost, then why not...

And if it can't be avoided at minimal cost????

At the end of the day we're not asking people to wear it or eat it so what's the problem?

 

[Tim R-T-C]

I'm sure I got something similar to this during history. Something about grease on rifle cartridges almost bringing down the Empire.

It was a major factor in the 1857 Indian Mutiny.

 

[Groningen]

Is there not more important news in the world? To the real vegans i would say: pay only with your (debit)card!

 

[RichmondCommu]

Is there not more important news in the world? To the real vegans i would say: pay only with your (debit)card!

However some retail outlets charge you for small purchases i.e. £1.00 if you pay by card.

 

[Starmill]

Well yes and no. It doesn't directly but (talking from personal experience and opinion) all this hyper sensitive and SJW is really galling.

I'm kind of shocked if you think me not eating meat, or buying vegan shampoo, or drinking organic milk is somehow galling or me being 'hyper-sensitive'. It's my choice to do those things, I do not tell other people that they should too (although if anyone would like to know more about why I do, for all kinds of reasons from health benefits to slowing antibiotic resistance to animal welfare - important issues affected by my purchases and not SJWing sharing posts on Facebook about it) they I would encourage everyone to look at the facts of how these products are made to come up with an informed decision about what they can afford* and where their money should go.


It is not for me to say that the Bank of England should not contain Tallow, at any cost. I would prefer it if they didn't because I think Tallow is horrible stuff (have you ever seen a Tallow candle?) and I am against the processes used to make it. But I trust their judgement because I must, and they are probably deserving of that trust in that this was the best option. The notes have already been printed now so we have to put up with them. Perhaps for future batches alternative polymer substrate that does not cost much more can be found that does not use Tallow. Perhaps not.

I am white, male and straight, I don't identify as anything interesting, I'm however getting utterly bored of being told that just by being me I am the worse sort of person and should be ashamed for being alive.

And it is that sort of thing that is helping the growth of the far right again.

This seems to me to be a completely unrelated issue. My take on this is that recognising privilege is difficult, doing it without feeling guilty is even more difficult, and people trying to make someone who they think is privileged feel guilty is cruel. Accepting privilege and turning it around is a skill, it is very difficult and most people are not good at it, so blaming someone for it is deeply unfair. At the same time, it requires a crumb of effort from pretty much everyone in the world and some more than others.

*For example I do not eat meat or gelatine sweets, but I wear leather shoes, according convention. It's expected in a formal environment and non-cow alternatives that are durable look convincing are too costly. Does this make me a hypocrite? Or a pragmatist?

 

[EM2]

So - don't they ever get washed ? Most soaps contain stearates or other compounds derived from fats.

There are numerous soaps available that do not contain any animal products.

 

[Nym]

Is there not more important news in the world? To the real vegans i would say: pay only with your (debit)card!

That is made of moulded plastic, so probably contains animal products.

 

[Starmill]

There are numerous soaps available that do not contain any animal products.

Like pretty much everything. If you're prepared to look for it, and to pay, you can usually find vegan everything. Vegan shower gel I find easy and cheap to get - Original Source 250ml for 99p and it smells gorgeous.

 

[AlterEgo]

I'm kind of shocked if you think me not eating meat, or buying vegan shampoo, or drinking organic milk is somehow galling or me being 'hyper-sensitive'. It's my choice to do those things, I do not tell other people that they should too (although if anyone would like to know more about why I do, for all kinds of reasons from health benefits to slowing antibiotic resistance to animal welfare - important issues affected by my purchases and not SJWing sharing posts on Facebook about it) they I would encourage everyone to look at the facts of how these products are made to come up with an informed decision about what they can afford* and where their money should go.


It is not for me to say that the Bank of England should not contain Tallow, at any cost. I would prefer it if they didn't because I think Tallow is horrible stuff (have you ever seen a Tallow candle?) and I am against the processes used to make it. But I trust their judgement because I must, and they are probably deserving of that trust in that this was the best option. The notes have already been printed now so we have to put up with them. Perhaps for future batches alternative polymer substrate that does not cost much more can be found that does not use Tallow. Perhaps not.

This isn't about *you*, this is about vegans and veggies who are unreasonably trying to get the BoE to change the design of the fiver.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

It is not for me to say that the Bank of England should not contain Tallow

I am immediately reminded of a Victorian money house, with high sloped desks and chairs to match, with Bob Cratchit beavering away in the poor light emitted from the meagre solitary coal in the fireplace that Scrooge allowed.

 

[Starmill]

This isn't about *you*, this is about vegans and veggies who are unreasonably trying to get the BoE to change the design of the fiver.

But it's not unreasonable to suggest that the Bank should take feedback into account and ensure other options are explored and evaluated for cost and feasibility for the next order of notes. And it definitely doesn't cause Trumpism.

 

[AlterEgo]

But it's not unreasonable to suggest that the Bank should take feedback into account and ensure other options are explored and evaluated for cost and feasibility for the next order of notes. And it definitely doesn't cause Trumpism.

But if you read the story, people are demanding the fiver be scrapped and replaced. Twitter suggests some people are going to stop accepting them.

You might not think this kind of tiresome bleating is related to the rise of "right wing" politics, but you'd be wrong. People are fed up of the shrill voices in some corners by the professionally offended - including this very small minority of Britain's vegans. I'm convinced that, far from bringing everyone together, the Internet actually encourages people to live in bubbles or echo chambers, sticking to talking to people who share the same interests. I really wish as a society we'd learn to speak to other in a more constructive way, avoiding the hysterics illustrated in the BBC article.

I'm really fed up of SJWs. I think they're a pox.

 

[Domh245]

This isn't about *you*, this is about vegans and veggies who are unreasonably trying to get the BoE to change the design of the fiver.

They're not trying to change the design. All that they would want is that it is made with polymers that are produced without Tallow. It'd be like a member of the Tibet support group making sure that the building they're using doesn't have any Chinese steel in it. In both cases, it'd be more expensive, but then you have to get into the messy business of assigning a cost to morals.

 

[meridian2]

It's unreasonable because the very definition of a vegetarian has become corrupted. All the BofE needs to do is to see that and ignore them.

Which they will do anyway.

 

[AlterEgo]

It's unreasonable because the very definition of a vegetarian has become corrupted. All the BofE needs to do is to see that and ignore them.

Which they will do anyway.

The old fiver had gelatin used in its manufacture. BoE will hopefully ignore the shrill and unreasonable voices of a small minority of Britain's vegans and veggies.

 

[Mag_seven]

If people don't like the new fivers - they can give them to me

 

[Johnuk123]

I wonder if all these veggies/vegans have discarded their mobiles and other electrical items as they also contain tallow in the solder.

 

[Dent]

I really wish as a society we'd learn to speak to other in a more constructive way

You could start by being more constructive in your own manner.

Dismissing other people's concerns as "tiresome bleating", "shrill voices", "professionally offended", "hysterics" (all terms you used in the very same post where you wished people were more constructive) or any other term of abuse is not constructive, nor is it polite or civil.

 

[AlterEgo]

You could start by being more constructive in your own manner.

Dismissing other people's concerns as "tiresome bleating", "shrill voices", "professionally offended", "hysterics" (all terms you used in the very same post where you wished people were more constructive) or any other term of abuse is not constructive, nor is it polite or civil.

Fair point. Frustration. But let's play Devil's Advocate:

Perhaps *you* could be more constructive than calling me impolite or uncivil? I hope you see the dilemma illustrated there - that it's very difficult to call people out on things without treading on their toes.

The problem is snowflakery. That sounds a bit Clarkson-esque (a man whose style I abhor), but frankly the average person in the street is tired of it. I find it frustrating that groups with legitimate concerns allow these kind of people to speak on their behalf.

There's been a lot of political change over the last couple of years. I've found myself growing weary of special interest groups. There seems to be little self-awareness among many people in special interest groups - even well educated ones - that they ARE a special interest group and the world doesn't revolve around them. It concerns me a lot; I can see the social and political changes swirl around me and within me and I'm not sure whether we are going to end up in a nicer place. I'm tired of being told that average white men are the cause of Britain's ills. I'm tired of the currency of victimhood. I'm tired of virtue signalling. I'm tired of people who can't take a hit on the chin. I'm worried about how society is developing where communication seems to take place in isolated bubbles rather than in properly open forums where people might get their views challenged. (Btw, I voted remain!! Ha.)

I'm a reasonable enough guy with a very good life. If someone corrects me on the forum, I will happily acknowledge it. If someone makes a good point I hadn't thought of, I acknowledge it. I'm more bothered about the depth of the debate than anything else.

I almost used to never say this, but often now when I read the news I think "why don't you all just f*** off?"

Or maybe I'm just getting older. Just musing.

 

[VauxhallandI]

They're not trying to change the design. All that they would want is that it is made with polymers that are produced without Tallow. It'd be like a member of the Tibet support group making sure that the building they're using doesn't have any Chinese steel in it. In both cases, it'd be more expensive, but then you have to get into the messy business of assigning a cost to morals.

The design would have to be changed else you wouldn't be able to tell the difference between the two outside of serial number.

 

[Domh245]

The design would have to be changed else you wouldn't be able to tell the difference between the two outside of serial number.

Good point, although you could probably just introduce the new material and then rely on the older ones coming out of circulation/production of more new ones than there are old.


I also found a post with a bit of maths about how many cows are needed to produce these notes

Tallow is rendered cow or mutton fat, but for the sake of argument let's go with cows here.

How much do cows weigh? Between 1,100 kg for a male and 720 kg for a female. So, on average, a cow weighs 910 kg.

The body fat content of an average cow is 25 percent. Therefore, the amount of fat in an average cow's body is 227.5 kg.

How many kilograms of this fat is contained in offcuts you could use to make tallow?About 40 kg, according to a man at the James Elliott butcher in Islington.

How much tallow is used in one note, according to the Bank of England? "A trace", which chemically means less than 100 parts per million, or 0.01 percent. A polymer consultant I called confirmed that the tallow present in a given polymer would be a fraction of a single percentage.

New £5 notes weigh 0.7 g, therefore there is roughly 0.00007 g of tallow present in one £5 note.

How many fivers are in circulation now, and therefore will be around by May of 2017, when all the old paper ones have been phased out? 329 million notes.

To work out how much tallow will be used in total in all of these fivers, we need to multiply 0.00007g by 329 million, which gives us 23,030 g, or 23 kg.

And if you get about 40 kg of tallow-worthy fat from the average cow, how many cows would you need to make every single £5 note in circulation?

JUST OVER HALF OF ONE COW

 

[Groningen]

However some retail outlets charge you for small purchases i.e. £1.00 if you pay by card.

Maximum charge in the Netherlands is 10 eurocent and is 99 % totally free. It is already in the product!

 

[Trog]

I think those cow figures may be a load of bullocks.

As a lot of male dairy breed cattle are got rid of young, and will never get anywhere near 1,100Kg. So the average weight is going to be biased towards the female end of the spectrum.

 

[Tetchytyke]

I hope you see the dilemma illustrated there - that it's very difficult to call people out on things without treading on their toes.

It's really very easy to disagree with someone respectfully and politely. "I think vegans and Sikhs are overreacting to a tiny trace of animal fat in the notes".

Instead you choose to go with:

snowflakery.

Which is nothing more than a nasty word used by the mendacious to shut down debate.

"I fundamentally disagree with the use of animal products and do not think money should be made with waste animal fat" is an entirely legitimate position to take. It isn't seeking to ban anything, it isn't seeking to prevent anyone else from having as many animal products in their life as they want, it is simply stating that the Bank of England should be more careful in the products they choose to issue.

I have bigger ethical concerns about the introduction of polymer banknotes than the waste animal fat, though, given just how many managers at Innovia Securency- the manufacturers of the New Fiver- have been implicated in huge-scale bribery in recent years.

http://www.theage.com.au/national/investigations/heads-roll-at-rba-company-20090914-fnva.html

 

[jon0844]

The design would have to be changed else you wouldn't be able to tell the difference between the two outside of serial number.

Just check for this;

 

[meridian2]

You could start by being more constructive in your own manner.

Dismissing other people's concerns as "tiresome bleating", "shrill voices", "professionally offended", "hysterics" (all terms you used in the very same post where you wished people were more constructive) or any other term of abuse is not constructive, nor is it polite or civil.

Scientifically, though, the Tallow content is not sufficient for the notes to be classed as meat or poultry. Similar to the fact that caffeine levels in coke is not sufficient to class it as coffee. What they are arguing for both defies common sense and science.

 

[AlterEgo]

There is not really any such dilemma - politely calling out uncivil behaviour is constructive and something completely different to abusing people.

I am sure I am not alone in finding it frustrating that people who voices concerns so often find their concern dismissed and derided and themselves subjected a barage of ad hominem abuse. This often drowns out valid points and stifles reasoned discussion. It doesn't even seem to matter what the concerns are, similar terms of abuse appear in all manner of discussions.

I can now add "snowflakery", "little self-awareness ... the world doesn't revolve around them", "currency of victimhood", "virtue signalling" and "people who can't take a hit on the chin" to the long list of abusive terms you have used in this thread alone.



Interesting you should say that in the same post as yet more abuse, in a thread you started with the only aparent purpose of deriding people. Your continued abuse of people who have concerns is not compatible with any kind of deep debate, nor is it constructive.

If you really value depth of debate and wish people would talk to eachother constructively, why don't you talk to people constructiuvely and allow deep debate to happen without being stifled by your abuse?

If you think "snowflakery", "currency of victimhood" and the other terms listed *abusive* then I feel sorry for you. You need a thicker skin, or a thesaurus. This is not abuse, but frank criticism of very small and self-defeating niche-interest groups made on an Internet forum about trains. Grow a pair. I can take it.

I'd rather people actually took the matter at hand rather than whinge constantly about perceived insults, in written media.

Incidentally, calling someone out as abusive is surely no more or less constructive than calling someone (who is not represented on the thread!) the total opposite - a snowflake. Whatever makes you feel better about yourself, go for it.

If you think a post of mine is abusive or breaks the forum rules, please report it to the mods, which would be the MOST constructive thing you could do if you had a genuine concern.

 

[Dent]

If you think "snowflakery", "currency of victimhood" and the other terms listed *abusive* then I feel sorry for you.

Do you genuinely believe that all the terms you have used are terms of kind endearment? I bet you don't, and you know as well as I do that they are indeed abuse.

You need a thicker skin, or a thesaurus. This is not abuse, but frank criticism of very small and self-defeating niche-interest groups made on an Internet forum about trains. Grow a pair. I can take it.

I'd rather people actually took the matter at hand rather than whinge constantly about perceived insults, in written media.

Incidentally, calling someone out as abusive is surely no more or less constructive than calling someone (who is not represented on the thread!) the total opposite - a snowflake. Whatever makes you feel better about yourself, go for it.

If you think a post of mine is abusive or breaks the forum rules, please report it to the mods, which would be the MOST constructive thing you could do if you had a genuine concern.

Typical ad hominem response. Coming from someone who claims to value depth of debate and wish people would talk constructively this is more than a little hypocritical.

 

[AlterEgo]

Do you genuinely believe that all the terms you have used are terms of kind endearment? I bet you don't, and you know as well as I do that they are indeed abuse.



Typical ad hominem response. Coming from someone who claims to value depth of debate and wish people would talk constructively this is more than a little hypocritical.

There isn't much point in discussing further with you. But here goes.

Report the post if it is abusive rather than airing things publicly in the hope someone else validates your worldview publicly. This is the kind of virtue signalling and victimhood culture I'm on about. It is tiresome, unproductive, diversive, and I decry it absolutely.

It is clear that you wish to portray yourself as having a higher standard. That is your prerogative. But if you would really prefer to see less of what you term "abuse", then...report it to someone who can do something about it! If you're right and the admins agree, they might delete or edit my post, give me an infraction, place me on moderation, or even ban me. That would be really constructive from the point of view of stemming abuse, wouldn't it?

Whingeing about how offended you are (or how offended other people might be) is not going to help. Not one bit.

Have a good evening - and I mean that sincerely.

 

[Phil.]

Another day, another group of offended people. Life is short people, carpe deum, get on with it, you only get one chance.