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New Go-op train service between Swindon, Taunton and Weston-super-Mare approved by ORR

duffield

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I must say that I am quite surprised that people on this thread asked awkward questions. Surely rail enthusiasts would have supported this project?
I guess I'm a "rail enthusiast" by most definitions (e.g. I got up at 0400 yesterday for a day trip to the North Norfolk Railway!), and I'd support any vaguely realistic proposal. It was clear from very early on to most of us here that this proposal was not even *vaguely* realistic, specifically from the financial point of view, and also in the light of Go-op's "track record"!
 
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geoffk

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I'm not sure. Post #202 mentions 8 level crossings.
How is it that there's a sudden need to upgrade level crossings, which was not known about before Go-Op's proposal? It's not as though there would be a huge increase in line usage. Looks a bit fishy to me.
 

duffield

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How is it that there's a sudden need to upgrade level crossings, which was not known about before Go-Op's proposal? It's not as though there would be a huge increase in line usage. Looks a bit fishy to me.
I may be wrong but I get the impression the ORR is rather rigidly prescriptive about level crossings, and even a modest increase in train services can tip the risk calculation into a higher category requiring mitigation before the service can run. So I don't think there's necessarily anything fishy to it.
 

JamesT

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I may be wrong but I get the impression the ORR is rather rigidly prescriptive about level crossings, and even a modest increase in train services can tip the risk calculation into a higher category requiring mitigation before the service can run. So I don't think there's necessarily anything fishy to it.
https://www.orr.gov.uk/sites/defaul...n-network-rail-representations-2022-11-01.pdf is the response from Network Rail regarding the application. It includes the following:
Risk modelling using the All Level Crossings Risk Model (ALCRM) tool demonstrated that the
introduction of the Go-op services would increase the risk at all level crossings across the proposed
routes. More specifically, of the 65 level crossings, 17 moved into a higher risk category. Whilst a
number of these crossings are already in our CP6 plan for enhancement and will absorb some of the risk
increase, we must fulfil our duty to keep risk at every location low so far as is reasonably practicable.
Therefore, this application constitutes a clear safety risk.
 

Annetts key

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https://www.orr.gov.uk/sites/defaul...n-network-rail-representations-2022-11-01.pdf is the response from Network Rail regarding the application. It includes the following:
Part of the method for determining a risk factor is the number of trains that use the line that the level crossing is located on.

I should point out that I was never involved with work to determine level crossing safely. I worked on the maintenance side.

However, IMHO the Network Rail All Level Crossings Risk Model (ALCRM) tool and the methodology used is not fit for purpose. It's just a system to come up with a number. The number then determines If it is low risk or high risk etc.

I have always been of the opinion that at all level crossings, the railway should maintain maximum practical sighting distance for users and train drivers. That all signage should be clear and understandable and kept in good order. And that the railway should ask the regular users of level crossings about their experiences at these crossings. So that problems and issues that the users have can be considered.

But no, coming up with a number appears to be more important.

Never mind that often level crossings on lines which don't have many trains actually become a higher risk because users assume because they rarely see a train, there won't be a train. You just don't get that problem on a busy line...

I tend towards agreeing that the goalposts have been moved somewhat. That said, they would still be well short of the mark with finances to do all the other things required to get off the ground, so the level crossing problems shouldn't divert attention away from that.
I agree that unfortunately this proposal from Go Op was looking somewhat hopeless even before considering the costs for the "alterations" to the level crossings.

But this also shows how hard it is to get new, for want of a better word, community services operating. In the past, some local authorities have supported some train services. But it's rather more difficult where multiple local authorities are involved.

Although it is unlikely that I would have ever used any of these services that Go Op intended to run, I do think more services are needed in these areas.
 
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Bald Rick

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How is it that there's a sudden need to upgrade level crossings, which was not known about before Go-Op's proposal? It's not as though there would be a huge increase in line usage. Looks a bit fishy to me.

Part of the method for determining a risk factor is the number of trains that use the line that the level crossing is located on.

I should point out that I was never involved with work to determine level crossing safely. I worked on the maintenance side.

However, IMHO the Network Rail All Level Crossings Risk Model (ALCRM) tool and the methodology used is not fit for purpose. It's just a system to come up with a number. The number then determines If it is low risk or high risk etc.

I have always been of the opinion that at all level crossings, the railway should maintain maximum practical sighting distance for users and train drivers. That all signage should be clear and understandable and kept in good order. And that the railway should ask the regular users of level crossings about their experiences at these crossings. So that problems and issues that the users have can be considered.

But no, coming up with a number appears to be more important.

Never mind that often level crossings on lines which don't have many trains actually become a higher risk because users assume because they rarely see a train, there won't be a train. You just don't get that problem on a busy line...

I have been responsible (in the past) for both maintaining level crossings and the risk assessments of them; my signature is on the front of hundreds of Level Crossing risk assessments.

I agree with @Annetts key that the railway should maintain the requisite sighting distance (noting this can vary over time as right of way usage changes), and indeed this is an absolute - the crossing is either compliant with the sighting standard or it is not. If it is not then mitigation must be assessed and deployed as appropriate.

But sighting distance is not a factor in the risk assessment - it is either sufficient or it is not.

Sighting layout is a factor in the risk assessment, eg the orientation of the crossing, any skew, position of crossing with relevance to a low sun, where the assumed sighting point is, etc.


Whilst I don’t know the details of the Go Op requirements, my educated guess is that the issue is about the proposed increase in rail services. As stated above, this tips some of the crossings over into a higher risk category, and that means additional assessments and potentially mitigation needs to be completed. In some cases the mitigation can be very straightforward. In some cases it isn’t. Level Crossing Risk Assessment is a complex area, and whilst the ALCRM model does have some blunt features, it is the best tool available out there, and the one relied on by the relevant standards, and the courts.

But the important thing is that the risk is to both users of the right of way and users of the railway. This is a particular issue at farm crossings, where heavy machinery can potentially cross, and this will be captured in the risk assessment through discussion with the authorised user(s) of the crossing. Essentially if the number of rail services on the crossing increases by, say, 50%, then the chances of collision increases by (very roughly) 50%, all else being equal. Whilst the probability is extremely small, if a train hits a tractor towing several tonnes of agricultural produce, or a tanker of some sort, it is likely to end up badly for passengers and staff on the train, as previous incidents have shown.

And, again, whilst such incidents are thankfully rare, they do happen. That means if nothing is done to consider how to mitigate the increased risk, and mitigation implemented where reasonably practical (as defined by ORRs guidance), then the relevant individual responsible for operational safety for the level crossing concerned will find themselves in the dock facing a judge in the event that an incident does occur and someone is hurt, or worse.
 

Annetts key

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I have been responsible (in the past) for both maintaining level crossings and the risk assessments of them; my signature is on the front of hundreds of Level Crossing risk assessments.

I agree with @Annetts key that the railway should maintain the requisite sighting distance (noting this can vary over time as right of way usage changes), and indeed this is an absolute - the crossing is either compliant with the sighting standard or it is not. If it is not then mitigation must be assessed and deployed as appropriate.

But sighting distance is not a factor in the risk assessment - it is either sufficient or it is not.

Sighting layout is a factor in the risk assessment, eg the orientation of the crossing, any skew, position of crossing with relevance to a low sun, where the assumed sighting point is, etc.


Whilst I don’t know the details of the Go Op requirements, my educated guess is that the issue is about the proposed increase in rail services. As stated above, this tips some of the crossings over into a higher risk category, and that means additional assessments and potentially mitigation needs to be completed. In some cases the mitigation can be very straightforward. In some cases it isn’t. Level Crossing Risk Assessment is a complex area, and whilst the ALCRM model does have some blunt features, it is the best tool available out there, and the one relied on by the relevant standards, and the courts.

But the important thing is that the risk is to both users of the right of way and users of the railway. This is a particular issue at farm crossings, where heavy machinery can potentially cross, and this will be captured in the risk assessment through discussion with the authorised user(s) of the crossing. Essentially if the number of rail services on the crossing increases by, say, 50%, then the chances of collision increases by (very roughly) 50%, all else being equal. Whilst the probability is extremely small, if a train hits a tractor towing several tonnes of agricultural produce, or a tanker of some sort, it is likely to end up badly for passengers and staff on the train, as previous incidents have shown.

And, again, whilst such incidents are thankfully rare, they do happen. That means if nothing is done to consider how to mitigate the increased risk, and mitigation implemented where reasonably practical (as defined by ORRs guidance), then the relevant individual responsible for operational safety for the level crossing concerned will find themselves in the dock facing a judge in the event that an incident does occur and someone is hurt, or worse.
Just because ALCRM model is relied on by the relevant standards doesn’t change things. Standards change over time as we learn how to improve things. I think the ALCRM model needs improving. But changing it may risk Network Rail having to spend more money. Just in case my point was missed, I'm not saying improvement work should not be carried out. I'm saying that if these level crossings are near the threshold of needing work, the improvement work should be carried out even if no more trains end up being added to the timetable.

Sighting distance - it is either sufficient or it is not. The same applies with signal sighting. However, at least with this the distance / time requirements have changed for the better during my time on the railway.

And I am well aware that the risk is to both level crossing users and the railway. And while we are on about it, also to railway staff. I have some interesting stories about level crossings that are off-topic. But I don't want to derail the topic so I will leave it there.
 

Bald Rick

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Just because ALCRM model is relied on by the relevant standards doesn’t change things. Standards change over time as we learn how to improve things. I think the ALCRM model needs improving. But changing it may risk Network Rail having to spend more money. Just in case my point was missed, I'm not saying improvement work should not be carried out. I'm saying that if these level crossings are near the threshold of needing work, the improvement work should be carried out even if no more trains end up being added to the timetable.

Sighting distance - it is either sufficient or it is not. The same applies with signal sighting. However, at least with this the distance / time requirements have changed for the better during my time on the railway.

And I am well aware that the risk is to both level crossing users and the railway. And while we are on about it, also to railway staff. I have some interesting stories about level crossings that are off-topic. But I don't want to derail the topic so I will leave it there.

I think we are agreeing. In this case some crossings were already near the threshold for needing work, and were therefore in the plan for doing something regardless of the new services. But some weren’t, and the additional proposed services tipped them over. As ever, you have to draw a line somewhere.
 

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