New Overground line names progress?

[Mikey C]

There was a public consultation to name the lines, for the first time ever. Why is that a bad thing?

There was a consultation, but it wasn't exactly a massive public exercise, inviting the public to come up names. And the nature of these exercises is that someone has to pick the ground rules for the type of names being looked for, and someone has to make the decision which names are chosen. A different Mayor may have wanted to celebrate great London figures from history, great business leaders, rock stars or indeed major figures from London's railway history. Or purely geographical names. Which would have set the terms of reference for the public consultation.

London Overground Naming Consultation

Questions to the Mayor: When seeking to determine potential names for London Overground lines, why did you not choose to hold a full public consultation so that Londoners could be fully engaged in determining those names?

www.london.gov.uk

A number of research methods were used to determine potential names for the London Overground, including conversations with London Overground customers at over 50 Overground stations, across all six lines and through 23 boroughs. This helped TfL to collate stories from Londoners who regularly use the lines and capture the character of the communities that use the Overground. For this project, specific expertise and local experiences were the focus, rather than a London-wide process.

 

[bramling]

I've never accused anyone of being a bigot, or communist. Plenty of people have claimed the line names are silly and talked of woke, virtue signalling and brought up the Mayor with accusations of him being soft on knife crime etc. It has been heavily politicised and not by me.

I've said over and over - they're just names. People will get used to it, and some people will cry themselves to sleep over them.

Notwithstanding the debate about names, I find it pretty regrettable that the opportunity to celebrate the achievements of the Brunels was missed with the East London Line. They contributed far more to Britain and London than Sadiq Khan ever will.

 

[J-2739]

Notwithstanding the debate about names, I find it pretty regrettable that the opportunity to celebrate the achievements of the Brunels was missed with the East London Line. They contributed far more to Britain and London than Sadiq Khan ever will.

The 'Kingdom Line' does have a nice ring to it, if you think about it.

 

[jon0844]

There was a consultation, but it wasn't exactly a massive public exercise, inviting the public to come up names.

I bet most people couldn't be ar**ed to get involved, but have been happy to moan since.

It's like council decisions where about three people turn up to a council meeting but can spend days/weeks on Facebook ranting that they 'weren't listened to' and the 'council always does what it wants'.

I guess it's also why election turnouts can be so bad, because people would only bother to vote if it was a poll on X or something.

 

[Goldfish62]

I bet most people couldn't be ar**ed to get involved, but have been happy to moan since.

And if they had the most popular suggestion would be "Overgroundy McOverground Face.

 

[Harpo]

And this is total b*ll*cás

You must live in a lovely utopian place where intolerance doesn’t exist and news of the hate-filled rioting earlier this year didn’t filter through.

 

[Lewisham2221]

Notwithstanding the debate about names, I find it pretty regrettable that the opportunity to celebrate the achievements of the Brunels was missed with the East London Line. They contributed far more to Britain and London than Sadiq Khan ever will.

Just as well that we didn't end up with a Sadiq Khan Line, either, then.

 

[bramling]

The 'Kingdom Line' does have a nice ring to it, if you think about it.

It does, although it wouldn’t be entirely appropriate as the Thames Tunnel is more associated with IKB’s father. IKB himself nearly lost his life during the tunnel’s construction though, hence why some recognition wouldn’t have gone amiss at all.

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Just as well that we didn't end up with a Sadiq Khan Line, either, then.

Kind of my point, Khan will be long forgotten as a historical irrelevance in 20 years, let alone 200. It’s quite sad really that naming a few railway services in a politically topical way would seem to be intended as his biggest mayoral achievement. Not that his predecessor was any better.

 

[renegademaster]

way would seem to be intended as his biggest mayoral achievement

He should have overplayed his role in Crossrail, yes it wasn't his idea and underway long before him, but so was Boris bikes and that didn't stop Boris from taking all the credit

 

[Goldfish62]

He should have overplayed his role in Crossrail, yes it wasn't his idea and underway long before him, but so was Boris bikes and that didn't stop Boris from taking all the credit

Johnson also took credit for the Overground and that also wasn't his idea.

 

[daveid]

It does, although it wouldn’t be entirely appropriate as the Thames Tunnel is more associated with IKB’s father. IKB himself nearly lost his life during the tunnel’s construction though, hence why some recognition wouldn’t have gone amiss at all.

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Kind of my point, Khan will be long forgotten as a historical irrelevance in 20 years, let alone 200. It’s quite sad really that naming a few railway services in a politically topical way would seem to be intended as his biggest mayoral achievement. Not that his predecessor was any better.

That's an understatement. What did Boris do other than hang around on zip lines whilst saying jibber jabber spling splong kerblam and take credit for Ken Livingstone's achievements? Khan has achieved a lot. He will be remembered chiefly for the expansion of ULEZ to the whole of Greater London. And he never once said "wibble".

 

[Mr. SW]

There was a consultation

Over the years I have received two consultancy questionnaires.

When I lived in West London, I got one on the expansion of Heathrow Airport; and when I moved to Leicestershire I received one on road improvements and maintenance.

Both were majorly flawed and full of leading, weighted and unanswerable questions.

Neither were filled in or returned.

The Leicestershire one was compiled by a famous opinion polling company, so I sent them an e-mail explaining what exactly was wrong with their line of questioning and to really pi55 them off, a predicted run-down of the answers they were likely to get.
I have been unable to find any result of this survey.
I have also kept it to show to people as an example of "How Not to Compile a Questionnaire".

But consultancies rarely take account of the questionnaires not being returned, and do not count ones that have been returned defaced.

Back on topic: The chosen names for the lines are the equivalent of a student putting up a poster of 'Che' Guevara on the wall of their digs and saying, "I am a radical", without really being aware of who he was or what he actually did.

 

[Wolfie]

That's an understatement. What did Boris do other than hang around on zip lines whilst saying jibber jabber spling splong kerblam and take credit for Ken Livingstone's achievements? Khan has achieved a lot. He will be remembered chiefly for the expansion of ULEZ to the whole of Greater London. And he never once said "wibble".

Borus bought some crap buses....

 

[Goldfish62]

Borus bought some crap buses....

He did indeed...

 

[Andyh82]

Regardless of the name debate, I certainly wouldn’t be putting them in an alphabetical list mixed up with all the underground lines.

It’s too many new names and new colours, similar to existing colours all at once, with no way to know they are the Overground

 

[jon0844]

Does the average person need to know or care the difference between overground, underground, national rail etc? All railways at the end of the day.

Signs and logos still show London Overground and they're separated on most maps and apps.

 

[michael8]

It doesn't actually matter what the lines are called, or which line is closest to the Mildmay hospital. Call them the Josephet, Kirylan, Frache line etc (just totally made up words) and it will have the same effect - untangling a web of lines, making it easier to use.

 

[thomalex]

Does the average person need to know or care the difference between overground, underground, national rail etc? All railways at the end of the day.

Signs and logos still show London Overground and they're separated on most maps and apps.

The main one is the similarity of colours which makes the TfL status map confusing to read

 

[michael8]

Does the average person need to know or care the difference between overground, underground, national rail etc? All railways at the end of the day.

Signs and logos still show London Overground and they're separated on most maps and apps.

Yes, I think it can be useful to categorise the lines so that there is some sort of expectation of what they are.

Underground - underground, maybe deep, can be smaller carriages, high frequency, very short distances in central core.
Overground - mostly above ground, full size trains, medium frequencies, longer distance.
Elizabeth line - modern, air conditioned full size trains in large stations, fast option, etc.
National Rail - will take you quickly to out of the city eg to Eastbourne.

All very useful in my opinion.

Please don't anyone argue and say "but some underground lines go overground" etc - it's a general characteristic, especially in the centre.

 

[stuu]

Yes, I think it can be useful to categorise the lines so that there is some sort of expectation of what they are.

Underground - underground, maybe deep, can be smaller carriages, high frequency, very short distances in central core.
Overground - mostly above ground, full size trains, medium frequencies, longer distance.
Elizabeth line - modern, air conditioned full size trains in large stations, fast option, etc.
National Rail - will take you quickly to out of the city eg to Eastbourne.

All very useful in my opinion.

Please don't anyone argue and say "but some underground lines go overground" etc - it's a general characteristic, especially in the centre.

Not really. Apart from train size, all of those apply to the tube, overground and NR services at different points

The only useful metric for the average passenger is wait/journey time. Everything else is irrelevant

 

[Meerkat]

Not really. Apart from train size, all of those apply to the tube, overground and NR services at different points

The only useful metric for the average passenger is wait/journey time. Everything else is irrelevant

In which case why do TfL have different colour rounders etc for Overground and Underground?

 

[stevieinselby]

Of which the overground has the lowest and if it's the first interaction someone has of the network, they are going to think they'll need a 15 minute wait for everything. I am aware this is true of the extremities of the metropolitan line but the metropolitan line at times feels like a mode in its own right.

Depends where they're travelling – most of the Mildmay line is 8tph, and the core section of the Windrush line is 16tph – which is as good as many Underground lines.

Hopefully this latest wheeze doesn't embolden TfL to rebrand sections of the DLR as the Charles and Camilla Lines in future....

Somehow I don't see Khan as an ardent royalist!
And the DLR is a lot harder to divvy up into "lines", when you've got so many overlapping service patterns.

• Beckton to Stratford International
• Beckton to Tower Gateway
• Woolwich Arsenal to Stratford International
• Woolwich Arsenal to Bank
• Lewisham to Stratford via Bow Church
• Lewisham to Bank

Apart from the Stratford via Bow Church branch, and the stub to Tower Gateway, all sections of the network are served by two (or more) service patterns, so it doesn't make a lot of sense to try to separate them out.

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The main one is the similarity of colours which makes the TfL status map confusing to read

Until we can get lines coloured ultraviolet, sky-blue pink or octarine, there's always going to be a challenge in finding enough colours that are clearly distinct from each other. The context – and the fact that most of the time they are shown as a double line – should minimise confusion with existing Underground lines.

 

[thomalex]

I can’t believe TfL Go still hasn’t been updated

 

[michael8]

Not really. Apart from train size, all of those apply to the tube, overground and NR services at different points

The only useful metric for the average passenger is wait/journey time. Everything else is irrelevant

I would say that if there is an option of two routes, then depth, train type (DLR etc), general busy-ness are all important factors in passenger choice. I know I personally make route choices based on my preferences - ie. if there's a choice of Central line or Elizabeth line, I'm definitely taking the Elizabeth line, and it's not just for wait/journey time !!! Comfort, accessibility, spaciousness, all play a part, and it can be assumed that for me, deep level tube is going to be less convenient than a sub-surface line like the circle line.

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I would say that if there is an option of two routes, then depth, train type (DLR etc), general busy-ness are all important factors in passenger choice. I know I personally make route choices based on my preferences - ie. if there's a choice of Central line or Elizabeth line, I'm definitely taking the Elizabeth line, and it's not just for wait/journey time !!! Comfort, accessibility, spaciousness, all play a part, and it can be assumed that for me, deep level tube is going to be less convenient than a sub-surface line like the circle line.

"Should I take the Elizabeth line or the tube?" is a question I often ask myself. The modes help differentiate the different options. Likewise Bus, Tram, that is why TfL have these named modes !

 

[jon0844]

I bet a lot people see the Elizabeth line as a tube line, and there's nothing wrong with that.

Thameslink, not having a TfL roundel, is probably seen as a regular train service even if the service frequency in the core almost matches tube train frequencies.

 

[StephenHunter]

Back on topic: The chosen names for the lines are the equivalent of a student putting up a poster of 'Che' Guevara on the wall of their digs and saying, "I am a radical", without really being aware of who he was or what he actually did.

I would say that was the case for the Suffragette line... they made Just Stop Oil look restrained.

 

[Wolfie]

I would say that was the case for the Suffragette line... they made Just Stop Oil look restrained.

Their cause was just though.

 

[StephenHunter]

Their cause was just though.

So are many causes, but it didn't do it a lot good among those whose post was burnt.

 

[duffield]

So are many causes, but it didn't do it a lot good among those whose post was burnt.

It's not a question of *just* having a just cause. If you're denied the right to vote for the law makers because you are female (or black, or similar reasons), then there is no moral imperative to respect or obey any of the laws they make.

If you have a just cause *and* the power to vote, it's reasonable to expect you to use democratic means to get the law changed, to get your cause addressed.

If you are denied the vote, you do not have that option. It is the choice of the current law makers to block your democratic avenue, and they should be held responsible for the consequences when you are forced to use other means.

 

[renegademaster]

Their cause was just though.

Like JSO their tactics where likely counterproductive and suffrage only passed after their violent campaign was ended. They also ran a huge campaign shaming conscientious objectors which was a bit iffy.