New Overground line names progress?

[stuu]

I think it hurts as it is woke stuff that should not have any bearing on an already badly financed and thus, badly steered system. Simply put, this was done to ram post modernism down our throats , and wipe the identity of these lines that have an identity.

Liberty is woke and post-modernist?

Who knew?

 

[Wolfie]

I think it hurts as it is woke stuff that should not have any bearing on an already badly financed and thus, badly steered system. Simply put, this was done to ram post modernism down our throats , and wipe the identity of these lines that have an identity.

An official identity? Like heck! The fact that a few folk called Gospel Oak to Barking for example the GOBLIN line is a complete irrelevance. Had you asked 100 Londoners what that was you would have found that 95+ didn't have a scoobie.

As for it not appealing to your particular political bent then frankly tough! Calling Crossrail the Elizabeth line didn't appeal to many folk but guess what the public call it.....

They are just names to clarify which route is meant, nothing more nothing less.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Dec 2024 ==

Liberty is woke and post-modernist?

Who knew?

To some folk of several particular mindsets - both left and right - its anathema unless the views exactly correlate with theirs.

 

[birchesgreen]

Don't most people refer to the Underground as the "tube" or "Underground" rather than individual lines? Its not that unusual therefore for people to refer to the orange one as the Overground even if they know the line names.

 

[Wolfie]

Don't most people refer to the Underground as the "tube" or "Underground" rather than individual lines? Its not that unusual therefore for people to refer to the orange one as the Overground even if they know the line names.

The only potential slight confusion is that back in the day folk in South London in particular used to describe all mainline services as 'the Overground'.

 

[talldave]

The only potential slight confusion is that back in the day folk in South London in particular used to describe all mainline services as 'the Overground'.

Indeed, we had underground & overground before Overground existed, even though some of the underground surfaced to go overground! Then we got Overground, which goes both overground and underground and finally Crossrail which is really overground even though a lot of it is underground - but it's not the tube.

Perhaps next we names for the overground that's not Overground?

 

[Wolfie]

Indeed, we had underground & overground before Overground existed, even though some of the underground surfaced to go overground! Then we got Overground, which goes both overground and underground and finally Crossrail which is really overground even though a lot of it is underground - but it's not the tube.

Perhaps next we names for the overground that's not Overground?

Arrgh... Stop, l'm losing the will to live lol....

Odd fact quoted to me (please someone tell me if its wrong) Whitechapel is the only station where the London Underground runs over the London Overground.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Odd fact quoted to me (please someone tell me if its wrong) Whitechapel is the only station where the London Underground runs over the London Overground.

I believe station is correct, but it's not the only place, as the Metropolitan passes over the Lioness line near Northwick Park, the Mildmay under the Metropolitan and Jubilee near West Hampstead, as well as under the Central & H&C near Latimer Rd, and under the Piccadilly and District before it joins the District before Gunnersbury.

 

[Wolfie]

I believe station is correct, but it's not the only place, as the Metropolitan passes over the Lioness line near Northwick Park, the Mildmay under the Metropolitan and Jubilee near West Hampstead, as well as under the Central & H&C near Latimer Rd, and under the Piccadilly and District before it joins the District before Gunnersbury.

TY

 

[norbitonflyer]

Ah yes. My granddaughter says they (378s) are just underground trains !. Orange - the problem is the colours of the rainbow were incorrectly specified all that time ago - should have split it up into more colours .

Orange was chosen for the Overground because it was already the colour of the East London Line (and most other colours were taken anyway) At one time all (or should that be both!) National Rail Lines shown on the Tube map were orange (The ELL was still shown as part of the Met at the time) This map is c 1985

1988, and the Thameslink core has been added

 

[miklcct]

Orange was chosen for the Overground because it was already the colour of the East London Line (and most other colours were taken anyway) At one time all (or should that be both!) National Rail Lines shown on the Tube map were orange (The ELL was still shown as part of the Met at the time) This map is c 1985

1988, and the Thameslink core has been added

What's the reason that the Thameslink core wasn't drawn to West Hampstead Thameslink, but stopped at Kentish Town? The interavailability section ends there and West Hampstead Thameslink - London Bridge is one of the routes where both can be used.

 

[Joe Paxton]

Orange was chosen for the Overground because it was already the colour of the East London Line (and most other colours were taken anyway) At one time all (or should that be both!) National Rail Lines shown on the Tube map were orange (The ELL was still shown as part of the Met at the time) [...]

Likewise on old (pre-privatisation) London Connections maps, British Rail (a.k.a. Network Southeast) lines were shown as orange.

Later, on London Connections maps the Silverlink TOC's routes were shown as orange lines - London Overground took over the Silverlink Metro routes in 2007.

Worth stating that the orange of London Overground is a slightly different shade to what the ELL orange was.

I think essentially orange was chosen because it was the colour that was available for use on the Tube map.

(The two oranges, ELL and LO, did very briefly co-exist on the Tube map for just over a month in 2007 - as can be seen here.)

 

[miklcct]

Likewise on old (pre-privatisation) London Connections maps, British Rail (a.k.a. Network Southeast) lines were shown as orange.

Later, on London Connections maps the Silverlink TOC's routes were shown as orange lines - London Overground took over the Silverlink Metro routes in 2007.

Worth stating that the orange of London Overground is a slightly different shade to what the ELL orange was.

I think essentially orange was chosen because it was the colour that was available for use on the Tube map.

(The two oranges, ELL and LO, did very briefly co-exist on the Tube map for just over a month in 2007 - as can be seen here.)

Why did Kensington Olympia and West Brompton have an aeroplane logo? Which trains went from there to an airport?

 

[Sad Sprinter]

To be fair to Sadiq Khan, didn’t someone post not too long ago it was in fact Boris who canned the original line names? Had we had a Tory mayor in London, we’d probably just end up with “The Free Market Line”, “The Spirit of Enterprise Line”, “The Shopkeeper’s Daughter Line”

 

[Joe Paxton]

To be fair to Sadiq Khan, didn’t someone post not too long ago it was in fact Boris who canned the original line names? Had we had a Tory mayor in London, we’d probably just end up with “The Free Market Line”, “The Spirit of Enterprise Line”, “The Shopkeeper’s Daughter Line”

The fine line between truth and fiction...

 

[Sad Sprinter]

The fine line between truth and fiction...

*taps mic* Oof, tough crowd tonight…

 

[Peter Sarf]

To be fair to Sadiq Khan, didn’t someone post not too long ago it was in fact Boris who canned the original line names? Had we had a Tory mayor in London, we’d probably just end up with “The Free Market Line”, “The Spirit of Enterprise Line”, “The Shopkeeper’s Daughter Line”

You forgot the "Corbyn Avoiding Line" .

Just shows how whatever names are chosen the risk is reflecting someones opinion or interest. The more geographical the name is the less contentious and more of a clue it gives. Examples are West Coast Mainline, London North Eastern, Great Western, Southern. Obviously gets harder as we split a region down into individual lines.

I wonder. If we were starting from scratch for London would a Paris style naming convention be adopted ?.
It would perhaps take up less space on boards and I like on the metro the end station being used to indicate direction of travel - always useful for choosing the right platform.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

You forgot the "Corbyn Avoiding Line" .

Just shows how whatever names are chosen the risk is reflecting someones opinion or interest. The more geographical the name is the less contentious and more of a clue it gives. Examples are West Coast Mainline, London North Eastern, Great Western, Southern. Obviously gets harder as we split a region down into individual lines.

I wonder. If we were starting from scratch for London would a Paris style naming convention be adopted ?.
It would perhaps take up less space on boards and I like on the metro the end station being used to indicate direction of travel - always useful for choosing the right platform.

This is Britain, we cannot name a transit line after the name of the physical track it runs, otherwise the “railway boffin anoraks” will be in charge! It’s amazing how much we value intellectual ignorance in this country

 

[jon0844]

There's nothing wrong with people of a generation that knew the lines as they were called before, like the North London Line. That's a bit different to insisting on calling it that today, just as there are those who think they're being clever/edgy by referring to the Elizabeth Line as Crossrail. And I'm sure there are some people old enough to still think of a Travelcard as a CapitalCard - but I won't be asking for one from a ticket office!

I mean, people can say or think what they want, and I've certainly said Crossrail to those who would know what it was - but wouldn't say it to other friends or family, or telling someone on the street asking for help because I somehow refuse to call something by the name it has been given to the public.

 

[norbitonflyer]

Just shows how whatever names are chosen the risk is reflecting someones opinion or interest. The more geographical the name is the less contentious and more of a clue it gives. Examples are West Coast Mainline, London North Eastern, Great Western, Southern. Obviously gets harder as we split a region down into individual lines.

Although you do get people complaining to SWR about services in Cornwall, for example. And some Transpennine services don't actually cross them.

The East Coast and West Coast Main lines have only a passing acquintance with the respective coasts.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Although you do get people complaining to SWR about services in Cornwall, for example. And some Transpennine services don't actually cross them.

The East Coast and West Coast Main lines have only a passing acquintance with the respective coasts.

It would never be perfect (unless we re-design Britain and all its cities) but the geographical names do reflect better where they are than an arbitrary name which requires a knowledge of the local history.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Dec 2024 ==

There's nothing wrong with people of a generation that knew the lines as they were called before, like the North London Line. That's a bit different to insisting on calling it that today, just as there are those who think they're being clever/edgy by referring to the Elizabeth Line as Crossrail. And I'm sure there are some people old enough to still think of a Travelcard as a CapitalCard - but I won't be asking for one from a ticket office!

I mean, people can say or think what they want, and I've certainly said Crossrail to those who would know what it was - but wouldn't say it to other friends or family, or telling someone on the street asking for help because I somehow refuse to call something by the name it has been given to the public.

The names are what they are but strictly speaking I would have left the Elizabeth line named CrossRail 2 or XR2. Thameslink being CrossRail 1 or XR1 of course. Rather like in Paris the equivalent lines are called RER A, RER B etc (up to U iirc). The Paris Metro lines are numbered 1 to 14. Paris names are not so geographical but grouped by the prefix RER or Metro/M iirc with a simple suffix.

The disadvantage with the above is they give no geographical clue to the orientation or rough location. But I suppose with 14 underground lines the Paris Metro is too too complicated compared to Londons 9 underground lines and only two RER (roughly) equivalents.

 

[Lewisham2221]

It would never be perfect (unless we re-design Britain and all its cities) but the geographical names do reflect better where they are than an arbitrary name which requires a knowledge of the local history.

A geographical name is of no additional benefit unless you expect the passenger to have a full geographic knowledge. To take the Underground as an example, nothing about the Piccadilly line names tells me that it would get me from Hammersmith to Heathrow. Likewise for a journey from Euston to Morden on the Northern line, or Stratford to Epping on the Central line. The lines could be named Potato, Napkin and Crayon and they would still fulfil the same objective.

 

[Peter Sarf]

A geographical name is of no additional benefit unless you expect the passenger to have a full geographic knowledge. To take the Underground as an example, nothing about the Piccadilly line names tells me that it would get me from Hammersmith to Heathrow. Likewise for a journey from Euston to Morden on the Northern line, or Stratford to Epping on the Central line. The lines could be named Potato, Napkin and Crayon and they would still fulfil the same objective.

You are perhaps highlighting how different people navigate. Some navigate by having a rough idea where places are is in relation to other places (which is what I tend to do). Others will follow directions (much like a sat nav gives you) with no need to understand context (alternative routes, useful via points etc).

 

[bramling]

There is a huge difference between using a historical name which someone has always used and will continue to use and falsely equating that with ordinary people using a line unfamiliar to them that never previously had a name. Those who have used, for example, the Watford DC line for years won't be looking at the new signage, even if they've always called it 'Harlequin'.


Presumably you struggle to use the Metropolitan to Amersham, the Jubilee to Stratford, the Wherry Lines to Lowestoft, the A train to 42nd Street or Line 4 to Châtelet.

It's just a name. It isn't going to hurt you.

Hurt or otherwise, I find it somewhat objectionable to choose names which refer to social groups.

To be fair to Sadiq Khan, didn’t someone post not too long ago it was in fact Boris who canned the original line names? Had we had a Tory mayor in London, we’d probably just end up with “The Free Market Line”, “The Spirit of Enterprise Line”, “The Shopkeeper’s Daughter Line”

I just wish party politicians would keep their grubby hands off this sort of thing. In fact, I wish they could keep their grubby hands off a lot of things. The only thing that modern-day British politicians seem to do well is make problems worse.

 

[Geogregor]

I just wish party politicians would keep their grubby hands off this sort of thing. In fact, I wish they could keep their grubby hands off a lot of things. The only thing that modern-day British politicians seem to do well is make problems worse.

That is a statement which would get you a lot of "likes" on social media.

It is also a cheap shot. People want politicians out of their lives, until they don't. Because they have pet project to be funded, because some service went pear-shaped etc. Then people immediately write to their local MPs and "want actions". General public are as much hypocrites as politicians.

Going back to the names. I'm not a fan, I would prefer different, especially I would like to keep GOBLIN, and give it a green colour

But at the end of day those are just names, I'm not going to cry or moan for weeks or months. People will get used to them and after a while only nerds on forums like this one will remember the fuss.

One more article about the fuss:

In defence of the London Overground rebrand

At the unveiling ceremony for the newly named lines, I found more than expensive virtue signalling.

www.newstatesman.com

And new signage:

20241206_142253 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


20241206_142358 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

 

[Wolfie]

because not all trains go to the final destination, and there may be more than a way for a train to go to a certain destination (e.g. Highbury & Islington to Clapham Junction).

In your example the trains that do that are now on different lines.

 

[Siemens Staines]

Why did Kensington Olympia and West Brompton have an aeroplane logo? Which trains went from there to an airport?

Kensington Olympia would have been an interchange for the InterCity services from the North to Brighton that called at Gatwick Airport. There were not many of them, so you would need to choose your connection times carefully.

 

[greatkingrat]

Kensington Olympia would have been an interchange for the InterCity services from the North to Brighton that called at Gatwick Airport. There were not many of them, so you would need to choose your connection times carefully.

Think it was more to do with the Southern services, which used to run to Gatwick before being cut back to Clapham Jn.

 

[Jimini]

Think it was more to do with the Southern services, which used to run to Gatwick before being cut back to Clapham Jn.

It would have been both.

 

[talldave]

You are perhaps highlighting how different people navigate. Some navigate by having a rough idea where places are is in relation to other places (which is what I tend to do). Others will follow directions (much like a sat nav gives you) with no need to understand context (alternative routes, useful via points etc).

A lot of people nowadays navigate using apps, like TfL Go, the official "London" app. That's the one that didn't have the new names on launch day. I guess we could have bet good money on that, with TfL being responsible for both the app and the planning & implementation of the changeover. Social events in breweries come to mind.....

 

[StephenHunter]

Liberty is woke and post-modernist?

Who knew?

Well, some might wonder why a railway line is named after a shopping centre...

"Liberty" is on the Havering coat of arms.