New rail lines in Scotland

[David M]

The Borders line doesn't just connect Hawick/Langholm, it provides more capacity for more direct NW/Yorks to Edinburgh trains

You'd need to double track the existing line from Tweedbank to Edinburgh. I can see the sense in extending from Tweedbank to Hawick although the cost would still be huge but beyond Hawick? No reason to so a non-starter.

 

[Indigo Soup]

It should be borne in mind that Dennis has a bold and visionary perspective around rail's modal share and the investment necessary to achieve it.

From my perspective, of the links he proposes:

• Ullapool and Stranraer need to be seen as serving the ferries, for both freight and passengers. Freight only makes sense if the trunk haul is being handled by rail, as Dennis believes it should. Both passengers would rely on suitable links on the other side (Belfast/Larne/Stornoway), otherwise you need to bring a car anyway.
• Inverness to Fort William is an obvious gap. But there's not a lot in between, and there's a reason it's never been filled. If it must be done, going from Newtonmore to Laggan ought to be cheaper.
• I don't understand the attraction of Tweedbank to Carlisle. As far south as Hawick I can see. But the utility of a through route seems limited, and the Borders look to Edinburgh rather than Carlisle for urban services.
• Leuchars to St Andrews seems obvious, but the practical difficulties (including suitable working patterns) are more substantial than they appear.
• Dyce to Fraserburgh probably makes political sense, but the economic case is weak.

Not shown on the map are such proposals as electrifying the West Highland to Oban and improving the alignment to reduce journey times to the Inner Isles.

Exactly. Maybe if VLR takes off, you could operate a line that penetrates much further into the town, possibly with involvement from the local uni's engineering school too.

St Andrews wouldn't sully its hands with something like engineering. That might be mistaken for trade.

According to this (p4) scottish-transport-statistics-2023.pdf Cairnryan handles 3.5m tonnes of freight - I don't know what that looks like in lorry terms (just under a 100,000 presumably at 40 tonnes each?) and whether a significant amount could be shifted to rail and what that would look like in freight train movements.

The average HGV load is about 14 tonnes, if I remember correctly - maximum weight is 44 tonnes, but the weight of tractor and trailer reduces payload to nearer 28 tonnes, then dead mileage and bulking out brings the average down.

 

[waverley47]

bold and visionary

Uh huh.

I'm not sure I'd say building 85 miles of new line through unpopulated wilderness to serve a grand total of 20k people is visionary in the way you think it is.

I'm also not sure that reopening 116 miles of line through unpopulated wilderness, lines which were closed in the sixties for very good reasons, is a good idea. If the Waverley route and Port Road had never been opened in the first place, we wouldn't be trying to build them from scratch now.

The only route on here that in any way fulfils any sort of merit is the Fraserburgh line, and even then, that's pushing the definition of merit to quite an extreme degree.

 

[yoyothehobo]

The economic case for all of these are so weak, they are essentially homeopathic.

It should be borne in mind that Dennis has a bold and visionary perspective around rail's modal share and the investment necessary to achieve it.

Maybe so, but these routes are not visionary, they are window dressing. Throwing billions at lines through the highlands will not improve anything. For the cost of these new lines, you could probably electrify the entirety of the scottish routes for the cost of building all of these.

 

[Kingston Dan]

The average HGV load is about 14 tonnes, if I remember correctly - maximum weight is 44 tonnes, but the weight of tractor and trailer reduces payload to nearer 28 tonnes, then dead mileage and bulking out brings the average down.

So more like 300,000 HGV movements in and out of Cairnryan then?

On a slightly different issue is there any freight still going via Stranraer?

 

[Indigo Soup]

I'm not sure I'd say building 85 miles of new line through unpopulated wilderness to serve a grand total of 20k people is visionary in the way you think it is.

Maybe so, but these routes are not visionary, they are window dressing.

This is one of those occasions where the inability to convey tone is problematic... think 'bold and visionary' in the same way as Sir Humphrey might describe a decision as 'courageous'.

For the cost of these new lines, you could probably electrify the entirety of the scottish routes for the cost of building all of these.

FWIW, he wants to do that as well.

On a slightly different issue is there any freight still going via Stranraer?

If there is, it's not going by ship.

 

[yoyothehobo]

This is one of those occasions where the inability to convey tone is problematic... think 'bold and visionary' in the same way as Sir Humphrey might describe a decision as 'courageous'.

To be honest, i did wonder!

 

[waverley47]

To be honest, i did wonder!

Myself as well, I was slightly concerned you'd jumped off the deep end as they say.

 

[Tormod]

The Herald have recently done a series of articles about Scotland's Railways and published an article by rail engineer and YouTuber Gareth Dennis with his view on where new rail lines in Scotland could/should be in the future.

View attachment 174304

Reimagining Scotland’s railways from the Highlands to the Scottish Borders

Rail expert Gareth Dennis reimagines the future of Scottish railways. Here is how it could look from the Highlands to the Scottish Borders.

www.heraldscotland.com

He also did a video going into more detail on these proposals:

Certainly they are ambitious proposals, however I'd be surprised to see any of them built (certainly in the next 25 years) with perhaps the exceptions of possibly a line out to Fraserburgh and an extension of the Borders Railway to Hawick.

I cannot see the economic case for Tweedbak to Carlisle. Low population served south of Tweedbank. I'd support extension of Borders rail to Hawick though.

 

[och aye]

If we're proposing big new lines I'm surprised a new Edinburgh-Perth line via Kinross isn't proposed. The rail route is very indirect and slower than the bus, and it would improve intercity connections for Dunfermline.

Additionally if we're creating new lines along the lines of the OP, a new fast line via Forfar and Brechin could speed up intercity journeys and put the two towns on the railway map.

Isn't the problem with trying to build a new direct line from Inverkeithing to Perth, to replace the former Glenfarg line is that most of the alignment has been built over by the M90 and it would be very expensive to build a new direct route?

 

[BlueLeanie]

Isn't the problem with trying to build a new direct line from Inverkeithing to Perth, to replace the former Glenfarg line is that most of the alignment has been built over by the M90 and it would be very expensive to build a new direct route?

The bigger problem is that there isn't even a valid business case to electrify the line between Perth and Dunblane to speed up services between both Glasgow & Edinburgh to Perth.

 

[stevieinselby]

The bigger problem is that there isn't even a valid business case to electrify the line between Perth and Dunblane to speed up services between both Glasgow & Edinburgh to Perth.

Apart from a couple of trains at the start/end of the day, all trains running between Perth and Dunblane continue beyond Perth, so electrifying that section without either (a) replacing all the IC7 fleet and the Glasgow to Dundee stoppers with bi-mode trains, or (2) extending the electrification all the way to Aberdeen and Inverness, there wouldn't be any point. The line is used by 2/3 trains per hour, so unless just about all of them are going to make use of the electrification, it would not be a good use of money.

 

[BlueLeanie]

Apart from a couple of trains at the start/end of the day, all trains running between Perth and Dunblane continue beyond Perth, so electrifying that section without either (a) replacing all the IC7 fleet and the Glasgow to Dundee stoppers with bi-mode trains, or (2) extending the electrification all the way to Aberdeen and Inverness, there wouldn't be any point. The line is used by 2/3 trains per hour, so unless just about all of them are going to make use of the electrification, it would not be a good use of money.

Is there an opportunity being missed by not extending an Edinburgh to Dunblane service to Perth once an hour following electrification?

Electrification shouldn't stop at Perth!

 

[stevieinselby]

Is there an opportunity being missed by not extending an Edinburgh to Dunblane service to Perth once an hour following electrification?

Electrification shouldn't stop at Perth!

It depends how much demand there is – the existing Fife services from Edinburgh to Perth take 1½ hours, and extending the Dunblane stoppers would also take about 1½ hours, so it would be a similar journey time. Is there more demand for Edinburgh to Perth than can be comfortable met by the existing 1tph local and then an IC every 2–3 hours?

 

[Ploughman]

For the Inverness - Fort William proposal, would a Risk Assessment have to include mitigations about large Prehistoric Reptile like creatures?

 

[D6130]

For the Inverness - Fort William proposal, would a Risk Assessment have to include mitigations about large Prehistoric Reptile like creatures?

Perhaps the large prehistoric reptile-like creature may be an added attraction for tourists travelling on the proposed line. How about a special monster-spotting train from Inverness to Fort Augustus and back late on a high Summer evening, when it will still be daylight up there? Anecdotally, most Nessie sightings are reported in the half-hour after pub closing time.

 

[Morayshire]

St Andrews wouldn't sully its hands with something like engineering. That might be mistaken for trade.

Errr. The reason for no engineering department at St Andrews has more to do with who got what when Dundee Uni was hived off.

In any case, as others have said getting a new rail link to St Andrews is problematic as golf courses, hotels, uni buildings and housing have all been built in the way. Would be better looking at overall connectivity especially for Edinburgh bound traffic

 

[Indigo Soup]

Apart from a couple of trains at the start/end of the day, all trains running between Perth and Dunblane continue beyond Perth, so electrifying that section without either (a) replacing all the IC7 fleet and the Glasgow to Dundee stoppers with bi-mode trains, or (2) extending the electrification all the way to Aberdeen and Inverness, there wouldn't be any point.

It would probably be worth at least all the way to Dundee, so that the Glasgow-Dundee stoppers could be fully electrified.

Is there an opportunity being missed by not extending an Edinburgh to Dunblane service to Perth once an hour following electrification?

It would be exceptionally useful. To be honest it would be exceptionally useful even without electrification, but that would require de-electrifying one Edinburgh-Dunblane service which might not be so clever.

 

[Bill57p9]

On a slightly different issue is there any freight still going via Stranraer?

There has been no freight to Girvan or Stranraer for a very long time. The last regular flows south of Ayr were from Chalmerston in 2010. I believe regular freight to Stranraer ceased in the early 90s, well before the ferry operations moved to Cairnryan. Stranraer Town yard has now been lifted and disconnected from the main line.
The line south of Dalrymple Junction (where the now out of use branch to Chalmerston diverges) is only RA5 and the gradients between Girvan and Glenluce are severe, limiting any potential.
In many ways I am surprised that the line south of Girvan survives at all.

 

[lachlan]

There has been no freight to Girvan or Stranraer for a very long time. The last regular flows south of Ayr were from Chalmerston in 2010. I believe regular freight to Stranraer ceased in the early 90s, well before the ferry operations moved to Cairnryan. Stranraer Town yard has now been lifted and disconnected from the main line.
The line south of Dalrymple Junction (where the now out of use branch to Chalmerston diverges) is only RA5 and the gradients between Girvan and Glenluce are severe, limiting any potential.
In many ways I am surprised that the line south of Girvan survives at all.

Rather than building new lines wouldn't it make sense to move Stranraer station south to be closer to the town?

 

[yoyothehobo]

Rather than building new lines wouldn't it make sense to move Stranraer station south to be closer to the town?

Probably make more sense just to move the entirety of Stranraer closer to Glasgow.

 

[Indigo Soup]

There has been no freight to Girvan or Stranraer for a very long time.

I think the question was in reference to road freight taking the ferry to Ireland - in which case the answer is 'no', all the ferries are now from Cairnryan.

Rather than building new lines wouldn't it make sense to move Stranraer station south to be closer to the town?

There's a convenient looking bit of brownfield land on the edge of Stranraer just west of the football statium where the line veers north. Maybe the station could be called 'Stranraer Town'. Conveniently, the street past it is already called Station Road.

 

[D6130]

I think the question was in reference to road freight taking the ferry to Ireland - in which case the answer is 'no', all the ferries are now from Cairnryan.

There's a convenient looking bit of brownfield land on the edge of Stranraer just west of the football statium where the line veers north. Maybe the station could be called 'Stranraer Town'. Conveniently, the street past it is already called Station Road.

Funnily enough, that's where Stranraer Town station used to be until about 1966....and until 1951 it was a through station on the line to Portpatrick. A much cheaper solution would be to build a new single platform station on the existing line at the landward end of the pier, alongside the large disused parking area formerly used for HGVs awaiting embarkation onto the ferries.

 

[Bill57p9]

Funnily enough, that's where Stranraer Town station used to be until about 1966....and until 1951 it was a through station on the line to Portpatrick. A much cheaper solution would be to build a new single platform station on the existing line at the landward end of the pier, alongside the large disused parking area formerly used for HGVs awaiting embarkation onto the ferries.

IIRC that was the plan, complete with interchange, however the money that had been set aside was used for something else. There were also complaints that charter trains wouldn’t have any run round facilities, however nothing has run round there for at least 10 years as anything loco hauled down there is either push pull or top & tail.

 

[Snow1964]

Seems £10m (which appears to be £5m from DfT and £5m from a Scottish Government fund) has been agreed to do feasibility on extending borders line southwards towards Carlisle

Ten years on from the opening of the railway from Edinburgh to Tweedbank in the Borders, approval has been issued to start the next phase of work to explore the case for extending it to Carlisle.

Following recent confirmation from the Department for Transport and drawing on the first tranche of the up to £10m committed by the Scottish Government and UK Government through the Borderlands Inclusive Growth Deal, this stage unlocks the funding to appoint a Project Manager for work to assess the benefits and challenges of extending the line beyond Tweedbank.

The development of the business case for the Borders Railway is a key project within the Borderlands Deal which recognises the potential of such a link to support economic growth.

Following the success of the re-instatement of the Borders Railway to Tweedbank, an extension could improve transport links to towns such as Hawick, which continue to face the effects of recent economic downturns, as well as offering improved connectivity for tourists, commuters and residents alike. Extending the railway through the heart of the Borderlands could also provide more environmentally friendly transport connections for the places and towns along the route.

Extension to Borders Railway back on track – Scottish Borders Council

Approval has been issued to look at the next phase of work to explore the case for extending the Borders Railway to Carlisle.

www.scotborders.gov.uk

 

[waverley47]

Seems £10m (which appears to be £5m from DfT and £5m from a Scottish Government fund) has been agreed to do feasibility on extending borders line southwards towards Carlisle

Extension to Borders Railway back on track – Scottish Borders Council

Approval has been issued to look at the next phase of work to explore the case for extending the Borders Railway to Carlisle.

www.scotborders.gov.uk

Uh huh, what a great use of money.

I should come back out of retirement and start offering feasibility studies for two million a pop.

 

[Trainbike46]

Seems £10m (which appears to be £5m from DfT and £5m from a Scottish Government fund) has been agreed to do feasibility on extending borders line southwards towards Carlisle

Extension to Borders Railway back on track – Scottish Borders Council

Approval has been issued to look at the next phase of work to explore the case for extending the Borders Railway to Carlisle.

www.scotborders.gov.uk

Please tell me that they're considering the option of going to Hawyck and not beyond?

 

[Indigo Soup]

Please tell me that they're considering the option of going to Hawyck and not beyond?

I would expect the consultants to consider various options. Those commissioning the study have presumably specified that those should include a through route to Carlisle, given the wording of the announcement. The consultants will probably report back that there's no reasonable return on investment for some or all of the options considered.

What the politicians choose to do with those findings is another matter: plenty of projects with a good return on investment never get taken forward, and plenty with terrible justification get carried out anyway.

It would be disappointing, though, if they restrict themselves to 'reopening' the old route: it's far from a given that the alignment best suited to the engineering and commercial pressures of 1859 is also best suited to the engineering and economic pressures of 2025.

 

[Tormod]

£10 million seems a helluva lot for this.

 

[snookertam]

Absolutely no chance is any of this reopening (or opening anew in certain cases). Could just about see a case for Dyce to Fraserburgh in a similar vein to the Borders reopening, but that’s it.

I saw someone mention realignment of the West Highland line to improve links to the Inner Hebrides. Not sure where this would be possible? Between Taynuilt and Connel Ferry perhaps? Perhaps a case for a rockfall shelter to be built in the pass of brander to speed things up there.