New rail link between Bury and Manchester?

[absolutelymilk]

https://www.burytimes.co.uk/news/17...or-new-rail-link-between-bury-and-manchester/

A NEW rail link between Bury and Manchester could be on track after a study found it was ‘feasible and cost effective’.

The report describes a ‘promising option’ as a peak period shuttle service between Rawtenstall and Bury using the East Lancashire Railway and a new heavy rail link from a disused platform at Bury Bolton Street Station to Castleton.

Under the plans, stations at Ramsbottom, Summerseat and Burrs Country Park could also be used...

According to the Bury Times, a rail link between Bury and Manchester would be feasible and cost effective. It would involve a shuttle service over the East Lancaster Railway line, to Castleton where passengers could connect to Manchester, Rochdale or West Yorkshire. Do people think this is viable?

 

[telstarbox]

The Metrolink takes 30 minutes into Manchester city centre so would it offer a faster journey time?

 

[gazthomas]

Covered in this month's Rail Express magazine too. Seems compelling

 

[Bletchleyite]

The Metrolink takes 30 minutes into Manchester city centre so would it offer a faster journey time?

It's more about serving Heywood than that existing passengers would use it.

It would be nice to get a regular service to Ramsbottom and Rawtenstall too.

 

[jonesy3001]

Won't they need to redouble the track and a new junction at castleton for both manchester and rochdale lines or will it stay single track?

 

[Jonfun]

It's been on the cards for well over a decade. I haven't seen one iota of progress in that time and to be honest I foresee very little chance of any now.

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

I think the biggest disincentive would be the need to change and make connections at Castleton, whilst changing at Bury instead for Metrolink would require an inconvenient walk between stations. A through service to Manchester Victoria via the curve at Castleton would obviously be the ideal, but this involves all the complications of national stock operating over heritage lines. However, if these issues could be overcome, looking at the 1959/60 LM timetable the Manchester Victoria - Bacup DMUs that ran via Moston made Bury Knowsley Street in 31mins and Bolton Street in 34 mins (calling at all sations except Miles Platting). A modern service calling at just Heywood could be very competitive with Metrolink and offer much needed relief to the severe overcrowding on the trams. The M66 / A56 is also notoriously congested during the peaks, so it is certainly a scheme worthy of further consideration.

 

[yorksrob]

Wouldn't they be better running a train from Victoria through from the West ? It could be a decent heavy rail alternative from Bury as well as Heywood.

 

[Ianno87]

Dare I say Tram Train running onto ELR metals via Buckley Wells may be worth exploration for feasibility?

 

[WatcherZero]

I would love to see their working showing rebuilding a heavy rail link is worthwhile purely to operate a couple of morning and peak rush hour shuttles.

 

[Eccles1983]

Dare I say Tram Train running onto ELR metals via Buckley Wells may be worth exploration for feasibility?

Tram trains on 80mph track? 20mph slower than line speed, even 15 less than a pacer will cause chaos on that line.

Keep tram trains away from serious heavy rail.

 

[Chris125]

Tram trains on 80mph track? 20mph slower than line speed, even 15 less than a pacer will cause chaos on that line.

Keep tram trains away from serious heavy rail.

Buckley Wells is south of Bury where the ELR meets Metrolink, so I'm not sure where 80mph comes into it?

With improved battery capacity that might be a better option now.

 

[bluenoxid]

Buckley Wells is south of Bury where the ELR meets Metrolink, so I'm not sure where 80mph comes into it?

With improved battery capacity that might be a better option now.

I think there is confusion here between using the existing tram route and operating via Castleton

 

[Bevan Price]

Another idea from dreamworld. The 25 mph speed limit on heritage railways would make the overall journey to Rawtenstall uncompetitively slow. Improvements to raise the speed limit would be very expensive.

 

[td97]

My opinion is that it is definitely worthy of being a passenger railway and should never have become a heritage line to begin with.
As far as Gtr. Manchester goes, there are some respectable and affluent areas which warrant a commuter service into Manchester (not that less well-off areas wouldn't, but these suburbs are completely missing a rail link).
Ramsbottom is a very unique village with an individual character and quite bespoke pubs, bars, cafés and shops which have a tourist draw, and would see increased patronage with a frequent and fast rail service from Manchester.
The centre of Bury (nevermind the M66) is a car park at all but the quietest times, and a rail link connecting the northern suburbs, Manchester and Lancashire, would help to reduce traffic around the centre. As well as motorway traffic heading towards Manchester/further afield.
It could be thought of as a line similar to the 2tph (each direction) Ribble Valley line (it runs fast to Bolton, then serving Hall ith Wood, Bromley Cross, Edgworth, Darwen, Blackburn). This proposed line would serve suburbs of a similar nature, and the Metrolink is irrelevant as the Ribble Valley misses out the Manchester suburbs too.
Add in the fact the Bury arguably has worse park and ride facilities than Bolton and Rochdale, and there's a lot of reasons to press ahead with this rail link.

 

[sprunt]

The centre of Bury (nevermind the M66) is a car park at all but the quietest times, and a rail link connecting the northern suburbs, Manchester and Lancashire, would help to reduce traffic around the centre. As well as motorway traffic heading towards Manchester/further afield.

Leaving aside the nonsensical comment about Bury being a car park, how would this rail link help relieve traffic in Bury? Anyone driving from Rawtenstall or Ramsbottom to Manchester isn't going to go through the centre of Bury, they're going to get on the M66 at the start of it if they're coming from Rawtenstall, or at J1 if they're coming from Ramsbottom.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

I would love to see their working showing rebuilding a heavy rail link is worthwhile purely to operate a couple of morning and peak rush hour shuttles.

That was exactly my thought. Rebuild it properly as a national rail link with - say - a half hourly Rawtenstall - Bury - Heywood - Manchester service, supplemented with a half-hourly Bury - Heywood - Rochdale shuttle and it'd be worth doing. But to make it work, you'd need to drastically increase linespeeds on the existing heritage railway section. I'm not sure how well the heritage railway would survive that . Open it for a couple of trains a day that require people to change at Castleton to get to Manchester and you'll basically be blowing hundreds of millions of pounds to provide trains for a few dozen people a day.

Dunno what you could do about the lack of interchange with the tram at Bury though, which is awkward.

 

[Mutant Lemming]

How much effort would be needed to re-open the Accy branch ? (and could it be done in time for Stanley's first appearance in the Champion's League?). As well as giving the metropolis of Accrington a link to Mank it would also give rail travellers the delight of access to the meat pie factory at Baxenden

 

[markindurham]

The same arguments about increasing line speeds have been used by a vocal minority to try and force a takeover of the West Somerset Railway and the nonsensical wibbling about rebuilding Malton to Pickering & then effectively annexing the North Yorkshire Moors Railway. Both lines closed for a reason - the traffic levels couldn't justify the lines being kept open, and these days both attract large sums of money to the local economy, thanks to visitors. The East Lancs closed for a similar reason - falling receipts. I suggest that it too brings in revenue to the local economy from visitors too, these days.

The NYMR and ELR are now private concerns, so the idea of simply taking them over is not something that would go down well with the majority of people, I believe.

The WSR is slightly different, in that the freehold is held by the local authority, but in reality it doesn't cost the LA much. That would change if the idea of increasing line speeds and updating signalling etc to allow faster trains were to come to pass - they would be expected to pay for some, if not all, of the costs.

 

[yorksrob]

Wonderful though preserved railways can be, one has to remember that for seventy - eighty percent of the time they are effectively disused anyway, and they provide limited practical use in terms of actually providing transport due to closing early in the day etc.

In some cases where a proper transport link would be more useful, it could be worth providing funding and practical assistance for the preserved railway to relocate altogether.

We should be wary of assuming that just because a transport link (allegedly) wasn't required during the 1960's, that will automatically be the case today.

In the case of the ELR, they should certainly consider building an all-day round heavy rail link to Heywood from Manchester. The ELR can connect end to end.

 

[Bevan Price]

My opinion is that it is definitely worthy of being a passenger railway and should never have become a heritage line to begin with.
As far as Gtr. Manchester goes, there are some respectable and affluent areas which warrant a commuter service into Manchester (not that less well-off areas wouldn't, but these suburbs are completely missing a rail link).
Ramsbottom is a very unique village with an individual character and quite bespoke pubs, bars, cafés and shops which have a tourist draw, and would see increased patronage with a frequent and fast rail service from Manchester.
The centre of Bury (nevermind the M66) is a car park at all but the quietest times, and a rail link connecting the northern suburbs, Manchester and Lancashire, would help to reduce traffic around the centre. As well as motorway traffic heading towards Manchester/further afield.
It could be thought of as a line similar to the 2tph (each direction) Ribble Valley line (it runs fast to Bolton, then serving Hall ith Wood, Bromley Cross, Edgworth, Darwen, Blackburn). This proposed line would serve suburbs of a similar nature, and the Metrolink is irrelevant as the Ribble Valley misses out the Manchester suburbs too.
Add in the fact the Bury arguably has worse park and ride facilities than Bolton and Rochdale, and there's a lot of reasons to press ahead with this rail link.

Much of the "tourist" attraction of Ramsbottom is due to ELR and steam locos. On non-operating days it can be pretty quiet. Whilst I personally think that closing Bury - Rawtenstall - Bacup was short-sighted, I think that restoration of frequent daily services is unlikely and unaffordable.
A better, and possibly cheaper option would involve Metrolink extensions, partly "on-street" from Bury to Ramsbottom (via Tottington), Bury to Heywood & Rochdale, and Radcliffe/Bury to Bolton.

 

[duffield]

That was exactly my thought. Rebuild it properly as a national rail link with - say - a half hourly Rawtenstall - Bury - Heywood - Manchester service, supplemented with a half-hourly Bury - Heywood - Rochdale shuttle and it'd be worth doing. But to make it work, you'd need to drastically increase linespeeds on the existing heritage railway section. I'm not sure how well the heritage railway would survive that . Open it for a couple of trains a day that require people to change at Castleton to get to Manchester and you'll basically be blowing hundreds of millions of pounds to provide trains for a few dozen people a day.

Dunno what you could do about the lack of interchange with the tram at Bury though, which is awkward.

Probably a daft suggestion but couldn't the ELR be a heritage railway on weekends and bank holidays, and a mainline railway the rest of the time? Is this really beyond our capabilities?

 

[telstarbox]

Not great when people want to go shopping or to the match by train on Saturday then find that they can't.

 

[158756]

How much effort would be needed to re-open the Accy branch ? (and could it be done in time for Stanley's first appearance in the Champion's League?). As well as giving the metropolis of Accrington a link to Mank it would also give rail travellers the delight of access to the meat pie factory at Baxenden

I think part of the A56 was built on the line to Accrington, plus some houses at Helmshore and the route into the centre of Accrington has completely disappeared. Accrington does now have a rail link to Manchester via Todmorden anyway (on the days it bothers to run), but it's not fast.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Probably a daft suggestion but couldn't the ELR be a heritage railway on weekends and bank holidays, and a mainline railway the rest of the time? Is this really beyond our capabilities?

I was thinking something slightly different. If the line was reinstated for national rail, I would guess it would attract enough traffic to sustain a half-hourly frequency between Bury and Rawtenstall, and perhaps every 15 minutes east of Bury (my suggestion was half-hourly to Manchester and half-hourly to Rochdale). The East Lancashire line typically takes 30-35 minutes between Bury and Rawtenstall, and 13 minutes (on fewer days) between Bury and Heywood. I'm guessing a national rail service might take 15 minutes Bury-Rawtenstall and 5 minutes Bury-Heywood. That would mean you could fit heritage trains in between the national rail ones north of Bury - which I think is how I'd approach it. The main snag is that through heritage running Heywood-Rawtenstall would require allowing national rail to overtake at Bury - which would require rebuilding to make 4 through tracks (there are currently 3 plus a terminating track according to Google maps). I'm not sure what impact the national rail trains would have on the heritage railway. I suspect they'd lose some custom. to people who'd just like a faster train, balanced by additional custom because people can reach the heritage line directly on the train.

 

[Chester1]

Much of the "tourist" attraction of Ramsbottom is due to ELR and steam locos. On non-operating days it can be pretty quiet. Whilst I personally think that closing Bury - Rawtenstall - Bacup was short-sighted, I think that restoration of frequent daily services is unlikely and unaffordable.
A better, and possibly cheaper option would involve Metrolink extensions, partly "on-street" from Bury to Ramsbottom (via Tottington), Bury to Heywood & Rochdale, and Radcliffe/Bury to Bolton.

The easiest way to connect Heywood would be single platform station opposite the ELR station with a single track link towards Victoria, seperate to the ELRs track. The link towards Manchester has been severed but the recent Calder Valley signalling work should make it much cheaper to reinstate. It would need a basic station at Heywood and less than a couple of miles on single track alongside the ELR on an old double track bed. It meets TfGMs goal of connecting Leigh, Middleton and Heywood to either Metrolink or NR. It furthers NRs wish to reduce the number of services terminating at Victoria (the Rochdale and Stalybridge turnbacks are at capacity).

The ELR BCR for Rawtenstall to Victoria in 2013 was 0.27, both the capital cost of £27m and annual subsidy required £1.8m were affordable but the loss of most ELR services offset the economic benefits of a commuter service. The ELR is too beneficial to the local economy to allow a full reinstatement of national passenger services. Bury-Heywood could be seperated from the ELR on week days if there is a neccesscity to have a Bury-Victoria service to relieve Metrolink. I don't think any such service will be necessary for several years. The Bury trams are being increased from a double and a single tram to two doubles. The Crumpsall-Trafford Centre service will increase capacity on the southern section of the line. If the business case currently being assessed for Crumpsall-Middleton leads to a extension it would permenantly limit Bury to 10tph due to lack of city centre capacity, making an NR service viable in the long term.

 

[Ianno87]

Tram trains on 80mph track? 20mph slower than line speed, even 15 less than a pacer will cause chaos on that line.

Keep tram trains away from serious heavy rail.

No, my suggestion was for Tram Trains via Metrolink metals, not Network Rail.

 

[Bevan Price]

I think part of the A56 was built on the line to Accrington, plus some houses at Helmshore and the route into the centre of Accrington has completely disappeared. Accrington does now have a rail link to Manchester via Todmorden anyway (on the days it bothers to run), but it's not fast.

One problem with the old Ramsbottom to Accrington section is that much of the line ran along the foot of the valley, but much of the population lives on/near the top of hills, especially around Haslingden & Baxenden. That made it hard to compete with frequent bus services that ran close to the main residential & shopping area. (A similar situation to that applicable to the former lines through Queensbury.)

 

[billio]

I imagine that one major reason for the ELR to extend from Bury to Heywood was to maintain a link with the mainline network both for their own purposes and Riley Engineering. One cannot describe the journey from Bury to Heywood as very attractive journey being partially in a cutting and then running by modern housing and industrial estates. The only part with a view is the viaduct crossing the Roch valley. So, the ELR might be quite happy for the mainline to arrive at Bury via Heywood especially if there was some recompense*. A mainline terminus in Bury could be built in the open land just before the "ski-jump" over Metrolink. It is hardly any walk from there to the Manchester end of the Metrolink platforms.

Another possibility would be a park and ride station for traffic off the M66, possibly near Heap Bridge. This would be more attractive to motorists if the train service ran beyond Victoria to other stations in Manchester and beyond.

A commuter service starting from Rawtenstall via the ELR is a separate issue, partially as mentioned earlier, the ELR line runs in the valley bottoms away from the centres of population. It would be better to continue Metrolink north using a tunnel under the centre of Bury and then possibly along the old Holcombe Brook branch and street running into Tottington and beyond.

If mainline services take over the Bury - Heywood - Castleton line, then a station linking Metrolink and the ELR where the two lines interconnect beyond Buckley Wells might be a useful development.

* My own fanciful idea for the ELR spending some of this funding would be to extend a new line from the junction at Stubbins towards Haslingden.