mike57
Established Member
When (or if?) HS2 gets to EustonHS2 will likely kill of the Lowland Sleeper.
When (or if?) HS2 gets to EustonHS2 will likely kill of the Lowland Sleeper.
True. Tbh, I think it would only take one or two even earlier departures to make a significant impact on the lowland sleeper.When (or if?) HS2 gets to Euston
The current ealiest departure is 05:30 from Euston arriving 10:42, and 04:28 from Glasgow arriving 09:12. an 09:12 arrival into London looks OK to me, however the first arrival into Glasgow at 10:42 really needs to be a lot earlier, and the journey time of 5h 11m is poor compared with other services. You would need a 04:30 ish departure with the same timing as say the 07:30.True. Tbh, I think it would only take one or two even earlier departures to make a significant impact on the lowland sleeper.
The fact that Avanti have elected to have two hour gaps in the pattern of through services between Birmingham and Scotland suggests that the market does have some limitations.Equally, Birmingham to Scotland is a big market. That’s undeniable. It’s a fact.
I'd suggest that if you wanted a sleeper service from the Southwest to Scotland at minimum loss it would start from Exeter, Tiverton Parkway, Taunton, Bristol Parkway, Swindon, Reading, London Ealing Broadway, Luton Airport Parkway, Leicester, East Midlands Parkway, Sheffield, Leeds, Newcastle, Edinburgh. You'd need to avoid stopping at places that could never justify it and stick to major interchange points.Surely it would route via the WCML from Birmingham?. At present, those in the south west only really have a choice of flying if going to Scotland, and vice versa for Scotland to South west travellers. The XC journeys are so ridiculously long, overcrowded and overpriced. A more realistic alternative to a sleeper, would be some kind of daytime service from the south west to Scotland via the WCML calling only at principal places, say Plymouth , Bristol, Birmingham, Crewe, Preston, Carlisle , Edinburgh for example. (Other calling patterns are available). Again, I know this has been discussed before and won't happen, but then we do not live in a country serious about removing internal flights. Perhaps things will change in coming years, one can but hope.
At what unearthly hour would this be calling at Luton, Leicester, East Mids etc?I'd suggest that if you wanted a sleeper service from the Southwest to Scotland at minimum loss it would start from Exeter, Tiverton Parkway, Taunton, Bristol Parkway, Swindon, Reading, London Ealing Broadway, Luton Airport Parkway, Leicester, East Midlands Parkway, Sheffield, Leeds, Newcastle, Edinburgh. You'd need to avoid stopping at places that could never justify it and stick to major interchange points.
If you could have a 0430 from Euston and arrive for 09:42 into Glasgow. Especially if you tightened it up as you say. I think that would sway some customers.The current ealiest departure is 05:30 from Euston arriving 10:42, and 04:28 from Glasgow arriving 09:12. an 09:12 arrival into London looks OK to me, however the first arrival into Glasgow at 10:42 really needs to be a lot earlier, and the journey time of 5h 11m is poor compared with other services. You would need a 04:30 ish departure with the same timing as say the 07:30.
No, I agree, and one of the limitations is its customer bases wanting to join a sleeper train at 0130/0230 in the morning. Those timings are not going to attract users despite there being a healthy market.The fact that Avanti have elected to have two hour gaps in the pattern of through services between Birmingham and Scotland suggests that the market does have some limitations.
If you could have a 0430 from Euston and arrive for 09:42 into Glasgow. Especially if you tightened it up as you say. I think that would sway some customers.
No, I agree, and one of the limitations is its customer bases wanting to join a sleeper train at 0130/0230 in the morning. Those timings are not going to attract users despite there being a healthy market.
When I needed to get to Newcastle last year, from my house in Taunton, it was quicker to catch the bus to Bristol Airport, faff around with security etc, fly to Newcastle and catch the metro into the city than go on the direct train.For e.g. Bristol to Scotland you can take an easyjet flight and be there much quicker, and probably cheaper too.
So you'd miss out the biggest city in the south west (Plymouth). For what benefit? Surely stock would need to be based at Laira, as no room at Exeter, so I think it goes without saying any south west sleeper would serve Plymouth!I'd suggest that if you wanted a sleeper service from the Southwest to Scotland at minimum loss it would start from Exeter, Tiverton Parkway, Taunton, Bristol Parkway, Swindon, Reading, London Ealing Broadway, Luton Airport Parkway, Leicester, East Midlands Parkway, Sheffield, Leeds, Newcastle, Edinburgh. You'd need to avoid stopping at places that could never justify it and stick to major interchange points.
Equally, Birmingham to Scotland is a big market. That’s undeniable. It’s a fact.
How many people would want to catch a train at 0430 from Euston?
Or the operator does, in terms of its available staff.The fact that Avanti have elected to have two hour gaps in the pattern of through services between Birmingham and Scotland suggests that the market does have some limitations.
Ok, maybe I worded it wrong. It’s a market that’s my point. But just because it’s a market doesn’t mean it justifies a sleeper. The person I was replying to was advocating for a sleeper stopping at around 0130/0230, my point is there is a market for Birmingham/Scotland but one that’s adequately covered during the day and won’t be attracted to such inconvenient times such as 0130 etcIt isn’t, at all, compared to London - Scotland.
Theres 4 or 5 flights a day from Birmingham to the central belt compared to around 60 from London to the Central belt.
Train wise there’s 20 a day Birmingham - Central belt, and 55 trains Londonto the central belt, one of which is the sleeper (excluding the highlander for obvious reasons), d some of which overlap with those from Birmingham.
The answer is 0230/0430, so say 2300/0800 Bristol, 2030/1030 Plymouth.What time would a Southwest sleeper have to leave to meet the Lowland SLeeper at Crewe or similar calling point?
There's a 7am Bristol to Manchester XC that gets in shortly after 10am. You can have your own bed and make a bacon sandwich at home before an easy trip to the station because the roads are still empty. Much, much more attractive to the customer than a sleeper that parks up at New Street for 4 hours, and much more cost-efficient for the operators.Indeed, but Manchester to Bristol are unfortunately worth serving so they should be served at reasonable times
Ok, maybe I worded it wrong. It’s a market that’s my point. But just because it’s a market doesn’t mean it justifies a sleeper. The person I was replying to was advocating for a sleeper stopping at around 0130/0230, my point is there is a market for Birmingham/Scotland but one that’s adequately covered during the day and won’t be attracted to such inconvenient times such as 0130 etc
The only way I could see a SW-Scotland sleeper even vaguely happening would be a Cardiff-Glasgow via the ECML using electric traction, calling Bristol Parkway, Reading, York, Newcastle, Edinburgh, Glasgow. And it'd still require twice as much subsidy as the Caledonian. At least.
How many people catch the 0430 to Euston from Glasgow?How many people would want to catch a train at 0430 from Euston?