New ScotRail EMU's, Any more news?

[jopsuk]

are there options for a further 43 units in the AT200 contract, or will the eventual replacement of the 318s (21 units, 1986) and 320s (22, 1990) be further tenders?

 

[SC318250]

I think the 318s will see another 10 years or so, especially given the refurb they are going through at moment

I would have thought that the new trains may have ended up on Edinburgh to Helensburgh, with the 334 going to Argyle lines and 318 or 322 coming to Cathcart services.

Now it looks like 380 will operate all Ayrshire and Inverclyde services, probably Paisley Canal and I wouldnt be suprised to see Lanark services go all 380, and possibly operated by Central drivers

Will be interestung to see if the new trains end up working Ayr to North Berwick services, or some 380 turns still run through

 

[NotATrainspott]

Interesting to note the details that have been confirmed in the type approval and delivery programme. 'T1~T7' to be fully manufactured at Hitachi's Kasado plant, sub-assembly provided for 'T8' onwards. No First Class compartment for the 46 3-car units.

Additionally, it seems ASR are expecting a TOPS classification in the 3xx range despite a presumed shift towards the 7xx range for NXEMUs.

I think the '3XX' designation is just because that's the term used in all the EGIP plans, which have been around for almost a decade now. It makes much more sense to keep that same codename throughout and then just sort out a class number when it really needs one.

 

[edwin_m]

The only surprise, as has been commented, is that AT200s look to be direct replacements for the 314s on the Cathcart circle, etc turns. Using your newest, freshest units to replace your oldest, most basic ones on very short inner suburban workings seems odd. AT200s on say, Lanark turns, with their WCML running and longer journey times, displacing 318/320s to replace the 314s off Cathcart etc seems a more logical deployment.

I wonder if this is a holding plan until the AT200s are re-deployed to more suitable duties on something like the Shotts route, so the new EMUs bought for that scheme would be inner-suburban ones and go to the Cathcart Circle instead.

 

[NotATrainspott]

I wonder if this is a holding plan until the AT200s are re-deployed to more suitable duties on something like the Shotts route, so the new EMUs bought for that scheme would be inner-suburban ones and go to the Cathcart Circle instead.

That would seem sensible. There's going to be plenty of need for 23m 100mph EMUs as more lines in Scotland are electrified in the not-too-distant future so it makes perfect sense to order too many right now and let them filter out to where they need to go. It appears that the current AT200 procurement plans include providing stock for the Shotts line, so it would be lines like Barrhead/East Kilbride, Anniesland and the Fife Circle where the surplus would end up.

 

[ScotTrains]

It mentions First class has been relocated and quality improved during design changes. Does anyone have any more information regarding this. I really hope First class isn't in the middle of the train like on the TransPennine class 350! That was a stupid idea!

 

[edwin_m]

It mentions First class has been relocated and quality improved during design changes. Does anyone have any more information regarding this. I really hope First class isn't in the middle of the train like on the TransPennine class 350! That was a stupid idea!

Why? If there is only one first class saloon the middle makes sense from the passenger point of view, because it will always be in about the same place on the platform. I believe there is also still a requirement for the disabled toilet to be wheelchair-accessible from both classes.

 

[Altnabreac]

Interesting route map.

Late 2017, we'll see the E-G trains going over to the AT200s, no surprises there. No surprises either with the Stirlings and Cumbernaulds quickly following suit. But... during 2018 we're going to see the Cathcart Circle being operated by AT200s :? Really? Going from 314s to new inter-regional EMUs seems a bit of a change. (I'm assuming they're getting three car trains, of course).

The North Berwick/Dunbar runs don't totally surprise me either, but the omission of the Carstairs runs does. Does this imply that 380s will continue running via Carstairs to Edinburgh, but potentially not out to East Lothian? And East Lothian - Glasgow runs go via Shotts now :?

Good to see the Shotts line being electrified soon, and I think that these trains will be appropriate for that run.

It seems a bit odd if I'm being honest, and I wonder if it will play out slightly differently in practice.

I was initially puzzled by the omission of Carstairs but on reflection it makes sense.

The Carstairs trains fulfill 3 distinct functions:

1. Stock movement of North Berwick EMUs to Glasgow depots
2. Peak Hours North Berwick - Haymarket services
3. Ayr - Edinburgh direct services

Reason 1 is no longer required as AT200s will be based at Millerhill / Craigentinny.

Reason 2 can be fulfilled by through running to other destinations. I suspect that the North Berwick peak services might be run through to Dunblane / Alloa to provide the Haymarket connections.

Reason 3 means that to use AT200s on the Carstairs runs you would need to clear them all the way to Ayr.

For this reason it makes sense for Carstairs services to continue to be Class 380s, providing an Ayr - Edinburgh service but without through running to North Berwick / Dunbar.

As regards the Neilston / Newton / Cathcart services I wonder if a potential reason for the AT200 switch there might be the Driver Only Operation situation. A lot of the DOO kit on those lines, be it mirrors or CCTV monitors is looking pretty ropey and almost life expired. If they run entirely AT200 services then all the DOO equipment can presumably just be removed as is happening in Ayrshire.

The same logic applies to cascading the freed up 380s to run the final Inverclyde diagrams allowing DOO equipment removal there too.

 

[hibtastic]

Surely the North Berwick and Dunbar routes will be operated with 4 car units as per now? Will all the 4 car units have first class though?

 

[me123]

Yes, all the four car units have FC. The presentation above (which I'll link to again here for your reference) shows the proposed numbers of seats in each unit compared to current rolling stock. This shows 20 FC seats in each train. By contrast, the three car trains won't have FC accommodation.

As for North Berwick getting four car trains all the time - I suspect you guys will get more of a mix of 3 and 4 car trains, depending on what's needed at the time. I wonder if there's capacity to have six car trains operating to North Berwick and/or Dunbar? Are the platforms long enough to accommodate this, if needed? It's about the only way you're going to get much extra capacity without extensive work to the North ECML.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

are there options for a further 43 units in the AT200 contract, or will the eventual replacement of the 318s (21 units, 1986) and 320s (22, 1990) be further tenders?

I suspect* that these two classes will be replaced in due course by a new order for suburban EMUs. They're both similar ages (only a few years in it IIRC), so I think we'll see them both being replaced at about the same time by the same new class of train. However, this is going to be many years down the line yet, there's plenty of life left in them. At least ten years, likely more.

*Note, I have no knowledge of any plans, this is purely conjecture!

 

[ScotTrains]

Why? If there is only one first class saloon the middle makes sense from the passenger point of view, because it will always be in about the same place on the platform. I believe there is also still a requirement for the disabled toilet to be wheelchair-accessible from both classes.

When First class is in the middle you always end up with standard class passengers walking through looking for a seat or going to the toilet. You also often end up with standard class sitting in First not realising it is First. Transpennine receives many complaints from First class passengers about this. From the passenger point of view having First at the end of the train makes sense, this is the way it's been done for many many years. Traditionally it's located at the London end so perhaps it could be at the Edinburgh end in this case. Personally I prefer the current turbostar layout with First at both ends. The trolley will now be able to travel through the whole train (due to the corridor connection) so no reason not to have it at both ends. As for the wheelchair access this can be included in the same coach as First, again like the current turbostar layout. Does anybody know where the new First location will actually be?

 

[380101]

I was initially puzzled by the omission of Carstairs but on reflection it makes sense.

The Carstairs trains fulfill 3 distinct functions:

1. Stock movement of North Berwick EMUs to Glasgow depots
2. Peak Hours North Berwick - Haymarket services
3. Ayr - Edinburgh direct services

Reason 3 means that to use AT200s on the Carstairs runs you would need to clear them all the way to Ayr.

For this reason it makes sense for Carstairs services to continue to be Class 380s

Route clearance for the at200s to Ayr should be no problem given that the 380s are also 23m per coach and most platforms are long enough for 7 cars and those that are not automatic selective door opening takes care of. Also that they are to compatible with 380 suggests plenty of crossing over to all 380 routes if needed.

 

[380gk]

But they won't train ayr drivers on the traction on the off chance they may run there.

 

[Grinner]

Route clearance for the at200s to Ayr should be no problem given that the 380s are also 23m per coach and most platforms are long enough for 7 cars and those that are not automatic selective door opening takes care of. Also that they are to compatible with 380 suggests plenty of crossing over to all 380 routes if needed.

Also Ayr to Edinburgh seems like the length of route that might benefit from the First Class provision on the four cars, compared to most of the other "non-EGIP" options.

 

[jopsuk]

Historically though the area covered by SPT has been without 1st class fares for a long time.

 

[jonnysr]

What's the plan for Glasgow, Lenzie, Stirling, Alloa services when electrified? AT200's or other electric stock?

 

[Observer]

What's the plan for Glasgow, Lenzie, Stirling, Alloa services when electrified? AT200's or other electric stock?

They are getting the three-car AT200s.

 

[NotATrainspott]

What's the plan for Glasgow, Lenzie, Stirling, Alloa services when electrified? AT200's or other electric stock?

AT200s will run all electrified services out of Glasgow Queen Street High Level once the current list of approved projects is complete. That will leave the West Highland services to be run by scenic 158s, the long distance services to Aberdeen and Inverness run by the refurbished HSTs, and I assume the remaining services to Dundee and Anniesland would be run by whatever stock is available.

 

[jonnysr]

They are getting the three-car AT200s.

Great news, I hate it when a 156 turns up on this line, they are noisy and cramped. I will miss the 170's though. When will Glasgow - Alloa electrification be complete, 2017?

 

[NotATrainspott]

Great news, I hate it when a 156 turns up on this line, they are noisy and cramped. I will miss the 170's though. When will Glasgow - Alloa electrification be complete, 2017?

The AT200s will be running to Dunblane and Alloa by the end of 2018 according to the stakeholder consultation document posted a few pages ago.

 

[SC318250]

Just had a look at the current diagrams

With the 380s having to cover initial Edinburgh to Glasgow services, it would make sence to introduce the Class 318 or Class 320 or Class 321 on to Cathcart/Newton/Neilston services, allowing most Gourock/Wemyss Bay to tempory go over to Class 314 operation

Once the AT200 are in service, it would make sense for Class 380 to operate all Ayrshire/Inverclyde/Paisley Canal and Lanark services from Glasgow Central. There should be enough units to do this, except for a couple of peak Inverclyde services.

Class 318 or 320/321 then continue on Cathcart/Newton/Neilston services and they could take on the Shotts services also.

Once future electrification of Barrhead and East Kilbride and possibly Kilmarnock are done the remaining 318/320/321 could take over these services allowing the same class to operate all central high level services

This would allow 334 to take over all Argyle line services including Carstairs services, and some north electric services.
AT200 can then take over the majority of Airdrie to Bathgate services, and also North Berwick/Dunbar to Edinburgh and extenstions to Glasgow Central via Carstairs

 

[170401]

Just had a look at the current diagrams

With the 380s having to cover initial Edinburgh to Glasgow services, it would make sence to introduce the Class 318 or Class 320 or Class 321 on to Cathcart/Newton/Neilston services, allowing most Gourock/Wemyss Bay to tempory go over to Class 314 operation

Where is it stated that class 380's will cover initial Edinburgh - Glasgow services?

It's my understanding that initial electric services will be operated by AT200 stock in 7 car formations from December 2017 (minimum requirement of 2 peak trains in each direction per peak period) alongside current class 170 stock on the current timetable. I haven't seen the use of class 380 stock on the E&G mentioned anywhere in any official documents.

 

[NotATrainspott]

Where is it stated that class 380's will cover initial Edinburgh - Glasgow services?

It's my understanding that initial electric services will be operated by AT200 stock in 7 car formations from December 2017 (minimum requirement of 2 peak trains in each direction per peak period) alongside current class 170 stock on the current timetable. I haven't seen the use of class 380 stock on the E&G mentioned anywhere in any official documents.

The ScotRail franchise specification requires that there be 7x23m or equivalent electric services between Edinburgh and Glasgow from December 2016, which is before any of the AT200s will be ready. The only stock suitable for use instead are the 380s.

EDIT: Here's the exact section relevant here:

2.4.2 Transport Scotland requirements
2.4.2.1 Major Infrastructure Projects
Edinburgh-Glasgow Improvement Project (EGIP)

...

December 2016

• Electrification of the core Edinburgh to Glasgow via Falkirk High route complete.
• New Edinburgh Gateway Station open on the Fife line at Gogar outside Edinburgh.
• No changes to the existing timetable.
• It is required that a 7 23m car electric train* operates (or an electric train of equivalent length which delivers the required capacity for the service) in each direction in each peak period by December 2016.

December 2017

• Phased introduction during 2017 - the ScotRail franchise will require that new electric trains be introduced to the Edinburgh to Glasgow via Falkirk High route, including 7 23m car formations, with an all electric fleet* in place by December 2017.
• A revised timetable should be in place for December 2017 achieving some journey time benefits, including a headline of 44 minutes or better but not necessarily the ultimate 42 minute target which is due for delivery 12 months later.
• 7 23m car formations should be run during 2017.

December 2018

• Dunblane/Alloa/Stirling electrification complete.
• Electric trains should be run on all services* (Edinburgh-Glasgow via Falkirk High and Dunblane/Alloa/Stirling).
• Introduction of 42 minute headline timetable for Edinburgh-Glasgow.
• Completion of Queen Street Station redevelopment.
• Introduction of 8 23m car formations to follow on Edinburgh to Glasgow via Falkirk High route using the lengthened platforms.

* Bidders should note that the Franchisee may operate diesel trains in exceptional circumstances for occasional, temporary or other valid operational reasons, agreed in advance with Transport Scotland.

The ITT was clearly written so that 380s would be acceptable for the December 2016 timetable. To be perfectly honest, I don't think most people will ever then notice that the 'new' trains have a different face on them a few months later.

 

[170401]

The ScotRail franchise specification requires that there be 7x23m or equivalent electric services between Edinburgh and Glasgow from December 2016, which is before any of the AT200s will be ready. The only stock suitable for use instead are the 380s.

EDIT: Here's the exact section relevant here:



The ITT was clearly written so that 380s would be acceptable for the December 2016 timetable. To be perfectly honest, I don't think most people will ever then notice that the 'new' trains have a different face on them a few months later.

Ahhh, thanks for that. I see where I was getting confused, I was under the impression the whole scheme had been pushed back to 2017 but it's only the introduction of stock.

In that case where will the 380 stock be sourced from? Will it be a straight swap with 170s going to the North Berwick/Dunbar line or will we see some more complex tweaking of diagramming to release them? If the latter I'd be hoping they do a better job than they have recently with the Winchburgh closure and golf specials running!

 

[NotATrainspott]

Ahhh, thanks for that. I see where I was getting confused, I was under the impression the whole scheme had been pushed back to 2017 but it's only the introduction of stock.

In that case where will the 380 stock be sourced from? Will it be a straight swap with 170s going to the North Berwick/Dunbar line or will we see some more complex tweaking of diagramming to release them? If the latter I'd be hoping they do a better job than they have recently with the Winchburgh closure and golf specials running!

The 380s will need freed up by complex tweaking, as everyone will be keen for Turbostars to be freed up for service south of the border as soon as possible. The seven 321s will be in service before December 2016 and these should make it possible to re-jig allocations without reducing capacity too much. The ITT indicates that there's a minimum of four 380s (two 3-car and two 4-car, joined into two 7-car sets) needed to provide one peak hour train in either direction.

 

[mbreckers]

The 380s will need freed up by complex tweaking, as everyone will be keen for Turbostars to be freed up for service south of the border as soon as possible. The seven 321s will be in service before December 2016 and these should make it possible to re-jig allocations without reducing capacity too much. The ITT indicates that there's a minimum of four 380s (two 3-car and two 4-car, joined into two 7-car sets) needed to provide one peak hour train in either direction.

But it's been pointed out before that 380's dont have a first class section, which is required by the franchise agreement. And several people on here have stated that it is unlikely that Transport Scotland will allow Abellio to use the first-class throwcover things on the seats to make it a pretend first class section

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Long term if Scotrail decided to go for an extra build of them new EMUs they're having built to replace the 380s, which TOC would likely take/get the 380s?

 

[SC318250]

I doubt the 380s will move away from Scotrail
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Is it still planned that the 321s will be reduced to 3 cars or are they staying as 4 cars?

If they are reduced to 3 cars will they be renumbered as 320s?

 

[D365]

I doubt the 380s will move away from Scotrail.

If they are reduced to 3 cars will they be renumbered as 320s?

Not as far as the lease agreement goes.

No, the 321s have different characteristics to the 320:- 100mph top speed etc. And seeing as nobody bothered to abolish the 322 designation when it's practically redundant.

Acceleration will be improved with only three cars though!

 

[Carntyne]

A couple of Cl 380 will be used on E&G initially until the Hitachi's arrive. There's no other suitable train.

Also 380 will be staying in Scotland for at least 25 years due to agreements between TS & the ROSCO, they're not being replaced by any new fleet.