New station for Shrewsbury

[Lurcheroo]

New railway station and 'traffic loops' feature in Shrewsbury transport plans

Shrewsbury could be set to get a new railway station under plans to take traffic away from the town centre.

www.shropshirestar.com

Ever since seeing this article which talks of a potential proposal for a new Shrewsbury parkway station on the Birmingham line. I have thought about another new possible station on the Cardiff line at the Meole brace retail and Shrewsbury football ground.

Seems like it could serve a similar purpose to the parkway proposal whilst also serving a busy retail park, a football ground, and nearby residential areas. It also seems to have been agreed to build 150 new homes right next to the retail park which the stop would also serve.

The stop could quite easily be served by a train every 30 minutes each way.

Anyone think of why it would be a bad idea? I can’t find anything online that it has ever been considered.

Edit: just to add my rough idea of services.

South bound services:
HHD-CDF 10 past Odd hours
ManP-S.Wales 40 past odd hours
AYW-Meole brace 10 past even hours
ManP- S.wales 40 past even hours

North bound services
CDF-HHD 25 past odd hours
S.Wales-ManP 55 past odd hours
Meole Brace-AYW 25 past even hours
S.Wales-ManP 55 past odd hours

 

[Topological]

Given all the buildings going on down near the New Meadow (or whatever it is currently called) a station would make sense. Stops could be added in pretty much anything that is not Mk4.

Whether there is the demand for such a station I do not know, but given it would have trains to Manchester, Holyhead/Liverpool and Cardiff it has potential for railheading too.

 

[Lurcheroo]

Given all the buildings going on down near the New Meadow (or whatever it is currently called) a station would make sense. Stops could be added in pretty much anything that is not Mk4.

Whether there is the demand for such a station I do not know, but given it would have trains to Manchester, Holyhead/Liverpool and Cardiff it has potential for railheading too.

I edited to add what I had thought of service wise. To get a consistent train every 30 minutes in both directions I couldn’t exclude the MK4’s but I had initially not wanted them to stop there as I already think they should stop in less places.

I do think that it would attract a good amount of custom as you’ve got residential area such as Bayston Hill, Sutton and Radbrook that are all close by and would be easier than trying to get into the Centre of Shrewsbury. Add that to how busy and totally gridlocked Meole brace gets, especially on a Saturday, I could see plenty of people wanting to shop there deciding to go by train to avoid the gridlock, also hence why I decided to extend the interim Ayw-Shr services to provide a direct service from the Cambrian as it is a very popular shopping destination for the people of Welshpool, Newtown, Caersws and the surrounding areas.

I’ve just learnt what railheading is an yeah, I could certainly see that too!

 

[robspaceman]

I’ve always thought such a station at meole brace should be complemented by one in harlescott at the north of the town too: that’s a similarly underserved area. Extend the current Crewe stopper down to craven arms, and add another diagram so there are two units going back and forth all day.

 

[W-on-Sea]

In principle (I don't know about the technicalities) a station at Meole Brace might well be very useful, as the area round about is now a major focal point of the south of the town. Just a pity it's not on the Birmingham line!

 

[Lurcheroo]

I’ve always thought such a station at meole brace should be complemented by one in harlescott at the north of the town too: that’s a similarly underserved area. Extend the current Crewe stopper down to craven arms, and add another diagram so there are two units going back and forth all day.

I also thought about Harlescott and it would benefit, but thought that Meole brace might have more potential so start with that one. Also thought about the Crewe local being extended down but potentially already have an hourly service from Crewe through and unfortunately the Crewe local is on the wrong hours to stop the MK4's stopping there (with a 30 minute service interval).

In principle (I don't know about the technicalities) a station at Meole Brace might well be very useful, as the area round about is now a major focal point of the south of the town. Just a pity it's not on the Birmingham line!

Yeah I agree, there seems to be sufficient space and good road access looking at satellite images

 

[Llanigraham]

I'm trying to work out how a station at Meole Brace would be able to serve both the Cambrain line and the Marches South Wales route

 

[Lurcheroo]

I'm trying to work out how a station at Meole Brace would be able to serve both the Cambrain line and the Marches South Wales route

It would require a reversal at Shrewsbury of the service from Aberystwyth to go back down the Cardiff line.

 

[Llanigraham]

It would require a reversal at Shrewsbury of the service from Aberystwyth to go back down the Cardiff line.

Not a chance!!
For a start do you realise how long that reversal would take?
The route would have to be :
Off Cambrian.
Block Marches line at Sutton Bridge Junct.
Change ends.
Reverse into Meole Brace station.
Block Marches route.
Leave station through Sutton Br Junct
Bear right at Severn Bridge Junc
Join West Mids route at Abbey Junc.

Whilst the current Shrewsbury station isn't in the most convenient place for road transport it is in the perfect place for passengers to change trains. Always struck me that having an entrance from the opposite side to the current area, in Howard St, would be much better.

 

[Cambrian359]

I’m sure the Shrewsbury parkway proposal keeps resurfacing every couple of years! Less talk and more building needed!

 

[Lurcheroo]

Not a chance!!
For a start do you realise how long that reversal would take?
The route would have to be :
Off Cambrian.
Block Marches line at Sutton Bridge Junct.
Change ends.
Reverse into Meole Brace station.
Block Marches route.
Leave station through Sutton Br Junct
Bear right at Severn Bridge Junc
Join West Mids route at Abbey Junc.

Whilst the current Shrewsbury station isn't in the most convenient place for road transport it is in the perfect place for passengers to change trains. Always struck me that having an entrance from the opposite side to the current area, in Howard St, would be much better.

no no, I'm well aware of the layout.
off cambrian and go to shrewsbury. reverse and head down to meole brace then terminate there.
form new service to Aberystwyth, going to shrewsbury and reversing again, then heading up the cambrian.
still quite a hassle and was really only to benefit what could be a good number of cambrian passengers heading to meole brace and to get 2 trains per hour. might maek more sense to extend the crewe local in its place though as they are about the same time.

 

[Llanigraham]

So you are stopping the Cambrian trains going forward to B'ham International?
The route that I know the majority take.

And there could not be 2 trains per hour on the Cambrian without major changes to the infrastructure, staffing and units, and to be honest the passenger numbers wouldn't be sufficient.

To be quite honest, building a station at Meole Brace fits into the same bucket as the Aberystwyth - Carmarthen line!

 

[The Planner]

no no, I'm well aware of the layout.
off cambrian and go to shrewsbury. reverse and head down to meole brace then terminate there.
form new service to Aberystwyth, going to shrewsbury and reversing again, then heading up the cambrian.
still quite a hassle and was really only to benefit what could be a good number of cambrian passengers heading to meole brace and to get 2 trains per hour. might maek more sense to extend the crewe local in its place though as they are about the same time.

There is loads of interworking so that cannot work. Taking a random weekday, the first hourly Aberystwyth arrives at 0818 and joins the 0930 to International. The 1020 from Aberystwyth forms the 1029 back, so that doesn't work. The 1119 is an International. You then miss an hour. 1330 is an International. The 1418 from Aberystwyth joins the 1518 to International and so on.

 

[Lurcheroo]

So you are stopping the Cambrian trains going forward to B'ham International?
The route that I know the majority take.

And there could not be 2 trains per hour on the Cambrian without major changes to the infrastructure, staffing and units, and to be honest the passenger numbers wouldn't be sufficient.

To be quite honest, building a station at Meole Brace fits into the same bucket as the Aberystwyth - Carmarthen line!

Again, you’ve missed the mark a bit.
Only every other service goes to Birmingham, the services on the in-between hours terminate at Shrewsbury. It’s not a full hourly service yet it’s just at peak times, but it is planned to be a full hourly service.
My suggestion was just send the Shrewsbury terminating services there. Absolutely don’t stop the Birmingham services !!

I’m not sure building a station at Meole brace fits in that bucket at all. Wether it’s a good option or not is definitely up for debate but it’s certainly got potential to be a worthwhile project in my mind (unlike the Aber - Camarthen line).

There is loads of interworking so that cannot work. Taking a random weekday, the first hourly Aberystwyth arrives at 0818 and joins the 0930 to International. The 1020 from Aberystwyth forms the 1029 back, so that doesn't work. The 1119 is an International. You then miss an hour. 1330 is an International. The 1418 from Aberystwyth joins the 1518 to International and so on.

I am aware of that, I was looking at the proposed December 2023 timetable from a while back which included a full hourly 197 service on the Cambrian to Aberystwyth and the inter workings were quite different and had just wondered if there would be a way it could work. But likely not as you’d essentially need to have a spare unit sitting around for an hour in the timetable to allow it to be used to extend the service to Meole brace. It was an idea but I think probably not a very good one
Any thoughts on the actual station ?

 

[Llanigraham]

I don't think I missed anything; you didn't say you'd only send the terminators to Meole Brace.

 

[Lurcheroo]

I don't think I missed anything; you didn't say you'd only send the terminators to Meole Brace.

My apologies, I didn’t make it very clear referring to them as the ‘interim’ services. But I did actually mean the Shrewsbury terminators.

also hence why I decided to extend the interim Ayw-Shr services to provide a direct service from the Cambrian as it is a very popular shopping destination for the people of Welshpool, Newtown, Caersws and the surrounding areas.

 

[AlastairFraser]

I edited to add what I had thought of service wise. To get a consistent train every 30 minutes in both directions I couldn’t exclude the MK4’s but I had initially not wanted them to stop there as I already think they should stop in less places.

I do think that it would attract a good amount of custom as you’ve got residential area such as Bayston Hill, Sutton and Radbrook that are all close by and would be easier than trying to get into the Centre of Shrewsbury. Add that to how busy and totally gridlocked Meole brace gets, especially on a Saturday, I could see plenty of people wanting to shop there deciding to go by train to avoid the gridlock, also hence why I decided to extend the interim Ayw-Shr services to provide a direct service from the Cambrian as it is a very popular shopping destination for the people of Welshpool, Newtown, Caersws and the surrounding areas.

I’ve just learnt what railheading is an yeah, I could certainly see that too!

Although the adjoining Shrewsbury Town football club is quite small (10k capacity) , there's also the potential for away supporters to patronise the station e.g. a lot of League 1 teams are currently from the North West, so the Manchester Picc services would be useful to transport them to the ground.

On non-matchdays, perhaps an agreement could be made with the club to use their large car park for park and ride too (it's only 5 mins from the A5)?

 

[Lurcheroo]

Although the adjoining Shrewsbury Town football club is quite small (10k capacity) , there's also the potential for away supporters to patronise the station e.g. a lot of League 1 teams are currently from the North West, so the Manchester Picc services would be useful to transport them to the ground.

On non-matchdays, perhaps an agreement could be made with the club to use their large car park for park and ride too (it's only 5 mins from the A5)?

Yeah I’d have thought away supporters would likely make a reasonable bit of traffic travelling there.

Yes that could be a good idea to make better use of the space when football other events are not on.

 

[SeanM1997]

Given the lack of northbound bay platform at Shrewsbury, extending the Crewe - Shrewsbury shuttle to "Shrewsbury Parkway" would add 3 minutes more to the journey but would still fit and would be easier to build a northbound facing platform here than at the current station. I would make this hourly (requiring one extra train) as there are large towns between Crewe and Shrewsbury which have 2-hour gaps which does not promote rail use and would help to reduce overcrowding on the Manchester - South Wales services

This would then give the new Shrewsbury Parkway a 3 platform station and 5 trains an hour:
Platform 1 - Northbound bay for hourly services to Crewe (TfW)
Platform 2 - Northbound through for hourly services to Shrewsbury (WMR), two-hourly services to Chester & beyond (TfW), two-hourly services to Machynlleth & beyond (TfW)
Platform 3 - Southbound through for hourly services to Birmingham New Street (WMR) and hourly services to Birmingham International (TfW)

 

[The Planner]

Isn't this proposed station south of Sutton Bridge box? That is absolute block, so you are now well into re-signalling territory.

 

[Lurcheroo]

Given the lack of northbound bay platform at Shrewsbury, extending the Crewe - Shrewsbury shuttle to "Shrewsbury Parkway" would add 3 minutes more to the journey but would still fit and would be easier to build a northbound facing platform here than at the current station. I would make this hourly (requiring one extra train) as there are large towns between Crewe and Shrewsbury which have 2-hour gaps which does not promote rail use and would help to reduce overcrowding on the Manchester - South Wales services

This would then give the new Shrewsbury Parkway a 3 platform station and 5 trains an hour:
Platform 1 - Northbound bay for hourly services to Crewe (TfW)
Platform 2 - Northbound through for hourly services to Shrewsbury (WMR), two-hourly services to Chester & beyond (TfW), two-hourly services to Machynlleth & beyond (TfW)
Platform 3 - Southbound through for hourly services to Birmingham New Street (WMR) and hourly services to Birmingham International (TfW)

I see you’re referring to the station that is proposed on the Birmingham line ?
I was talking about a different station on the Cardiff Line at the Meole Brace retail park.

Isn't this proposed station south of Sutton Bridge box? That is absolute block, so you are now well into re-signalling territory.

Hmmm, I had not considered that. I don’t sign the route.
What kind of alteration would be needed ? Could it be as simple as adding an additional home and section signal for each direction? Or a much bigger project ?

 

[The Planner]

Hmmm, I had not considered that. I don’t sign the route.
What kind of alteration would be needed ? Could it be as simple as adding an additional home and section signal for each direction? Or a much bigger project ?

Depends what you are building. Its more than a home and distant as you will have S&C for turning stuff back presumably. It might have enough levers spare, but it will certainly increase workload etc..

 

[Llanigraham]

Isn't this proposed station south of Sutton Bridge box? That is absolute block, so you are now well into re-signalling territory.

Yes it is south of there.

Hmmm, I had not considered that. I don’t sign the route.
What kind of alteration would be needed ? Could it be as simple as adding an additional home and section signal for each direction? Or a much bigger project ?

To be fair, you don't need to sign the route; it is quite obvious from the maps.
Sutton Bridge Box controls the junction onto the Cambrain, plus any movements around Coleham Yard.

There are spare levers at the Box but adding extra movements is going to add to the workload and therefore (probably) increase it's grading and therefore staffing costs.
On-track it would probably need a couple of turnouts and additional signalling, so you are probably looking at £1mill without the costs of buildings and land.

 

[The Planner]

Yes it is south of there.


To be fair, you don't need to sign the route; it is quite obvious from the maps.
Sutton Bridge Box controls the junction onto the Cambrain, plus any movements around Coleham Yard.

There are spare levers at the Box but adding extra movements is going to add to the workload and therefore (probably) increase it's grading and therefore staffing costs.
On-track it would probably need a couple of turnouts and additional signalling, so you are probably looking at £1mill without the costs of buildings and land.

It will be more than a million! Every Signalling Equivalent Unit (SEU) is still going to be around £300k or more. So just a simple crossover and associated signalling is going to bust a million without any effort at all.

 

[Lurcheroo]

To be fair, you don't need to sign the route; it is quite obvious from the maps.
Sutton Bridge Box controls the junction onto the Cambrain, plus any movements around Coleham Yard.

No you don’t have to but I hadn’t considered it so I’ve not looked at the maps for it. If I signed it, it may have been something I’d have considered off the bat.

It will be more than a million! Every Signalling Equivalent Unit (SEU) is still going to be around £300k or more. So just a simple crossover and associated signalling is going to bust a million without any effort at all.

I suppose it would be possible to only have through services and that would significantly simplify what upgrades would be required ?

 

[Llanigraham]

No you don’t have to but I hadn’t considered it so I’ve not looked at the maps for it. If I signed it, it may have been something I’d have considered off the bat.

I suppose it would be possible to only have through services and that would significantly simplify what upgrades would be required ?

If you are only going to have through services, so only the North Wales or Manchester to Cardiff, using it, it strikes me as a waste of time and money.
From my experience of using Shrewsbury the majority of passengers are heading towards Birmingham, so this station would do nothing to help them. Opening a back entrance to Shrewsbury Station, with car parking, would be much more beneficial.

Now if you really did want to be a crayonista, and with money no object, you could remove Severn Bridge Junct Box, and build a nice modern triangular station on it's site, that would service all the lines.

 

[Lurcheroo]

If you are only going to have through services, so only the North Wales or Manchester to Cardiff, using it, it strikes me as a waste of time and money.
From my experience of using Shrewsbury the majority of passengers are heading towards Birmingham, so this station would do nothing to help them. Opening a back entrance to Shrewsbury Station, with car parking, would be much more beneficial.

Now if you really did want to be a crayonista, and with money no object, you could remove Severn Bridge Junct Box, and build a nice modern triangular station on it's site, that would service all the lines.

No it would likely not help them, unless they’re starting at Shrewsbury and it saves them having to get into the town centre and worry about parking. My reasoning for the station was more about Meole brace as a destination for shoppers with some other added benefits. I think through services would still fulfil that.

Wow, now that would really be a serious project ! I’d be surprised if I ever saw something like that at Shrewsbury in my lifetime.

 

[Meerkat]

Are people willing to use a short P&R service that isn't near turn up and go? Seems a real palaver.
I can see the only viable P&R being on the Birmingham line, mainly for passengers going in the Birmingham direction.
Though if you can run the WMT trains through to it then Harlescott is in an area with a lot of employment and a fair bit of housing. My crayons always fancy extending one of the WMT trains all the way to Crewe instead of the TfW shuttle, adding some through journey possibilities (and performance risk...).

 

[Lurcheroo]

Are people willing to use a short P&R service that isn't near turn up and go? Seems a real palaver.
I can see the only viable P&R being on the Birmingham line, mainly for passengers going in the Birmingham direction.
Though if you can run the WMT trains through to it then Harlescott is in an area with a lot of employment and a fair bit of housing. My crayons always fancy extending one of the WMT trains all the way to Crewe instead of the TfW shuttle, adding some through journey possibilities (and performance risk...).

Ironically there is a bus park and ride at Meole brace already.
I was thinking of it more as a destination with people wanting to go there to shop, with some of the other benefits being more like a (positive) side effect.

I could see a P&R station on the Birmingham line (that’s already being proposed) being well used, as well as one at Harlescot. Interesting idea to send the west mid stoppers through to it! It would free up a bay platform at Shrewsbury too.

 

[Basil Jet]

Now if you really did want to be a crayonista, and with money no object, you could remove Severn Bridge Junct Box, and build a nice modern triangular station on it's site, that would service all the lines.

Very curved platforms would not be allowed.