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New station: Wixams, Bedfordshire. How many platforms and what should the service be like?

Zomboid

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The solution clearly is to design a custom train set, I'm thinking the "Wixams Class" to carry passengers between Bedfordshire and the Continent.
HS2 trains are the answer here. They'll be capable of operating on the conventional network as well as high speed, so if a tunnel operator buys some (be that Eurostar or one of the OA proposers), and upgraded the link line so it's actually possible to get a passenger train from the international side at St Pancras to the MML, rolling stock shouldn't be the silver bullet.

It's a ludicrous idea, but wouldn't necessarily require the tunnels reboring and all the stations rebuilt.
 
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John R

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Interesting that the new 4-platform station will "have a roof", and wonder why that has been brought up specifically.
I'm assuming that there will be some sort of connection to the theme park that keeps people dry - covered walkway, airport style people mover, etc. So from Universal's perspective, to have people in the dry and out of any cold wind from the moment they step off the train will improve their initial impression of the experience.
 

Bald Rick

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HS2 trains are the answer here. They'll be capable of operating on the conventional network as well as high speed, so if a tunnel operator buys some (be that Eurostar or one of the OA proposers)…

But they won’t be capable of operating into St P, on HS1, through the tunnel, or on the LGV-Nord. Nor into any Paris terminal, nor Brussels. It would need to bea bery bespoke order, for perhaps 3 trains.
 

John R

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We can see how successful the Disneyland trains have (?) been over the 30 years the tunnel has been open. Even without the operational problems people are rightly raising, what on earth would persuade an operator to try and make a go of a direct service heading to Universal for maybe a maximum of one trainload a day?
 

Zomboid

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But they won’t be capable of operating into St P, on HS1, through the tunnel, or on the LGV-Nord. Nor into any Paris terminal, nor Brussels. It would need to bea bery bespoke order, for perhaps 3 trains.
Why not? They haven't been built yet, and so the necessary variations could be incorporated into the design. The 374 is based on an off the shelf product that's modified for the tunnel, why can't that be done again? I'd be surprised if the train wasn't designed to be adaptable for the tunnel etc without having to completely start again.

It would only be a commercially worthwhile exercise if it was an operator buying a larger fleet for wider operation, and Eurostar aren't likely to be doing that. But it's not beyond possible that one of the newly proposed operators would go down that route.

Don't get me wrong, I think it's a very silly thing that has a near zero chance of happening, but it's a solution that doesn't need every station on the MML to be rebuilt.
 

Bald Rick

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Why not? They haven't been built yet, and so the necessary variations could be incorporated into the design. The 374 is based on an off the shelf product that's modified for the tunnel, why can't that be done again?

I’m not saying it couldn’t be done. I am saying that building a train compatible with at least three different electrification systems and 5 different signalling systems for a short order manufacturing run would be very,very expensive.

In any case there’s no capacity on the MML for them.
 

masekwm

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Wonder how the new St Albans depot is going to work with the current capacity on MML, plenty of freight on the line already.

Rather than trying to introduce more operators I wish they’d get Thameslink back to pre Covid levels especially later in the day
 

Haywain

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Wonder how the new St Albans depot is going to work with the current capacity on MML, plenty of freight on the line already.
Probably in the same way as much of the existing freight, by running at night. Although I am rather sceptical about how much freight traffic will actually be generated.
 

D365

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Is there any discernible impact to local housing developments as a result of delaying ’their’ station?
 

Bald Rick

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Wonder how the new St Albans depot is going to work with the current capacity on MML, plenty of freight on the line already.

With some difficulty, at a guess. Not least because of contsiner sizes….



Rather than trying to introduce more operators I wish they’d get Thameslink back to pre Covid levels especially later in the day

The service is already at pre-Covid levels, bar a couple of trains in the peak, and the evening curtailment of every other Bedford service at Luton, which is offset for most passengers by the EMR Corby services that call at Bedford.
 

A S Leib

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The service is already at pre-Covid levels, bar a couple of trains in the peak,
I thought Kentish Town to Orpington had been cut with the Southeastern stoppers put up to 4 tph to compensate? Letchworth to Cambridge is the only other bit of Thameslink's 2019 off-peak network not back to what it was before though (I think it's kept 2 tph Cambridge – Brighton, kept 1 tph Cambridge – King's Cross which has been transferred to Great Northern but with the second hourly train cut short).
 

masekwm

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The service is already at pre-Covid levels, bar a couple of trains in the peak, and the evening curtailment of every other Bedford service at Luton, which is offset for most passengers by the EMR Corby services that call at Bedford.

That’s the point, it’s created big gaps in service for those of us that live at intermediate stations. We’ve also lost services in AM and PM peaks
 

Bald Rick

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That’s the point, it’s created big gaps in service for those of us that live at intermediate stations. We’ve also lost services in AM and PM peaks

Most places in the south east of the size of Harlingotn and Flitwick would be quite happy with a half hourly service until midnight, and hourly all night. I appreciate that it used to be better.

The loss of peak service is literally 2 or 3 each way out of dozens in each peak, and the trains are not as busy as they were pre Covid.
 

Mgameing123

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Most places in the south east of the size of Harlingotn and Flitwick would be quite happy with a half hourly service until midnight, and hourly all night. I appreciate that it used to be better.

The loss of peak service is literally 2 or 3 each way out of dozens in each peak, and the trains are not as busy as they were pre Covid.
2 to 3 trains may not mean much for the core but they certainly mean a lot for the outskirts of the system where there is a more limited train service.

Most places in the south east of the size of Harlingotn and Flitwick would be quite happy with a half hourly service until midnight, and hourly all night. I appreciate that it used to be better.

The loss of peak service is literally 2 or 3 each way out of dozens in each peak, and the trains are not as busy as they were pre Covid.
2 to 3 trains may not mean much for the core but they certainly mean a lot for the outskirts of the system where there is a more limited train service.
 

John R

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2 to 3 trains may not mean much for the core but they certainly mean a lot for the outskirts of the system where there is a more limited train service.


2 to 3 trains may not mean much for the core but they certainly mean a lot for the outskirts of the system where there is a more limited train service.
But as previously commented, a service of at least every 30 minutes in the evening is a not unacceotable level of service for a town around 40 miles out of London with a population of around 15,000. I don't think you can claim to be too hard done by.
 

Zomboid

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The service on the Thameslink route through the evening and into the night is about as good as you'll find anywhere in the country. Once you get into the late evening to get any approximation of 2tph to Oxford (pop 163000 according to Wikipedia) you need to include both Paddington and Marylebone services, which don't share any intermediate calls.
 

Haywain

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Once you get into the late evening to get any approximation of 2tph to Oxford (pop 163000 according to Wikipedia)
Oxford is significantly further out of London and much less part of the commuter belt, so is not a good comparison.
 

Mgameing123

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But as previously commented, a service of at least every 30 minutes in the evening is a not unacceotable level of service for a town around 40 miles out of London with a population of around 15,000. I don't think you can claim to be too hard done by.
It’s not unacceptable but the more trains the better. Half hourly service is quite barebone.

But as previously commented, a service of at least every 30 minutes in the evening is a not unacceotable level of service for a town around 40 miles out of London with a population of around 15,000. I don't think you can claim to be too hard done by.
It’s not unacceptable but the more trains the better. Half hourly service is quite barebone.
 

zwk500

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It’s not unacceptable but the more trains the better. Half hourly service is quite barebone.
Half-hourly is a perfectly sensible service for anywhere outside a major metropolitan area. It's not barebone at all - people will plan their journeys around the service and 30-minute intervals gives you plenty of options without wasting significant time.
 

Magdalia

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Letchworth to Cambridge is the only other bit of Thameslink's 2019 off-peak network not back to what it was before though (I think it's kept 2 tph Cambridge – Brighton, kept 1 tph Cambridge – King's Cross which has been transferred to Great Northern but with the second hourly train cut short).
Cambridge-Brighton is 2tph until end of evening peak.

Cambridge-Kings Cross stoppers only have 5 missing in the middle of the day, effectively just school/college hours. 0857-1257 down terminate at Letchworth. what might be 1056-1456 Cambridge-Kings Cross start from Letchworth at 1127-1527. There are a small number of evening Letchworths too, but I'm not sure they ever ran through to/from Cambridge.

A lot of evening traffic out of London is commuters delaying their journeys home to do something in London after work. The more general reduction in commuting means there's less of that too.
 

Bald Rick

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2 to 3 trains may not mean much for the core but they certainly mean a lot for the outskirts of the system where there is a more limited train service.

To put it in context, in the 2 hours from 0629, there are 12 trains from Flitwick to London in the morning peak. That is not a limited train service, by any measure.
 

NCT

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Was the full '2018' timetable ever properly implemented before Covid struck? I genuinely cannot remember - was there every a brief period where 8tph Bedfords ran? Or 8tph slows to/from Luton / St Albans?

I do think that with all the development happening between West Hampstead and Mill Hill, there should be a good 8tph stopping service.
 

A S Leib

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I do think that with all the development happening between West Hampstead
Should all Thameslink services call at West Hampstead? I'd say that the LNR Tring / Milton Keynes services are coping with Harrow & Wealdstone being the first stop for all of them (or, at least, that removing that stop wouldn't make a big enough difference alone for busier services). On the other hand, a lot of suburban Midland Main Line to Docklands traffic will probably be going via Farringdon instead now.
 

Bald Rick

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Was the full '2018' timetable ever properly implemented before Covid struck? I genuinely cannot remember - was there every a brief period where 8tph Bedfords ran? Or 8tph slows to/from Luton / St Albans?

I do think that with all the development happening between West Hampstead and Mill Hill, there should be a good 8tph stopping service.

In the peak, yes. 8tph Bedfords (for nearly two hours, albeit one of the morning peaks up servcies actually started Flitwick, indeed still does). Plus 4tph Luton ‘semi fasts’ and 4tph St Albans all stations, both as now. For the Bedfords, there are currently three trains missing, which if they were reintroduced would arrive St Pancras around 0740, 0840, and 0855.

But since then, we have had the EMR Corby service improvement, which has services from Bedford (and both Lutons) arriving 0754, 0824 and 0851

Should all Thameslink services call at West Hampstead?

They can’t, as the timetable wouldn’t work. Or, to make it work, every EMR service wold need an extra three minutes.
 

NCT

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Should all Thameslink services call at West Hampstead? I'd say that the LNR Tring / Milton Keynes services are coping with Harrow & Wealdstone being the first stop for all of them (or, at least, that removing that stop wouldn't make a big enough difference alone for busier services). On the other hand, a lot of suburban Midland Main Line to Docklands traffic will probably be going via Farringdon instead now.

I don't think the Bedfords should call. They are still on the fast at this point and the fewer sources of speed differentials with EMRs the better. The slows really should an 8pth service - all da ideally. This way West Hampstead Thameslink commuters always have the same platform to catch their trains from.
 

flitwickbeds

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Was the full '2018' timetable ever properly implemented before Covid struck? I genuinely cannot remember - was there every a brief period where 8tph Bedfords ran?
I was commuting 4 days a week (Mon-Wed plus Sat, every week, for different shifts start times), from 2016, including during COVID, and have only ever known 4tph from Flitwick.
 

The Ham

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Half-hourly is a perfectly sensible service for anywhere outside a major metropolitan area. It's not barebone at all - people will plan their journeys around the service and 30-minute intervals gives you plenty of options without wasting significant time.

Take for example the line out of Waterloo at about 45 minutes out your looking at the following stations (off peak frequency):

Farnborough Main (3tph, pre COVID 4tph) serves an urban area of 240,000 people with several other stations, but Farnborough has a population of 57,500.

Fleet (3tph) severs an urban area of 45,000 with no other stations.

Winchfield (2tph) immediate population is tiny, but serves a nearby settlement of 5,000.

Hook (2tph) settlement of 10,000 (but it's also got other places which connects to it by bus).

Basingstoke (7tph - to/from Waterloo - but then it's a junction station and 2tph few would use to go to Waterloo due to the extra time taken) District council has a population of circa 185,000.

Based on that I'd agree 2tph is fairly normal for a settlement of 15,000. If you're lucky with routing you may see 3tph (i.e. happens to be between two larger settlements).

"Should" it be more is a different matter.

Personally of the above Hook might benefit from 3tph (every 20 minutes is minimum turn to and go frequency).

Farnborough Main and Fleet should be closer to 5tph (possible if COVID hasn't happened and Crossrail 2 was built).
 

A S Leib

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Personally of the above Hook might benefit from 3tph (every 20 minutes is minimum turn to and go frequency).
How many places get 3 tph spread equally rather than 2 tph plus an extra tph as part of a different service pattern? It isn't really turn up and go if there's still parts of the hour where you could be waiting 29 minutes, so I'd say the minimum TUAG is 4 tph spread equally or needing 6+ tph if not.
 

cle

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I don't think the Bedfords should call. They are still on the fast at this point and the fewer sources of speed differentials with EMRs the better. The slows really should an 8pth service - all da ideally. This way West Hampstead Thameslink commuters always have the same platform to catch their trains from.
A lot of people board the trains on the fasts which are first stop St Albans. I think the current mix of 2 stop, 2 pass is good off peak. I would think in the peaks it would be harder with the extras. But as mentioned, the Corbys act as additional fast services too. These may well call at Wixams - although something to Leicester/Notts might give greater coverage to the Universal park.

The biggest competition is the M1 which connects all of the East Midlands cities so quickly. Rail will be to London, and then hopefully east, as well as west ;)

P.S. 4tph for the Catford Loop (all day) is the actual biggest missing piece from the TL timetable, but not relevant directly to a Wixams discussion. People in dense zone 3 would kill for Flitwick's service and generally some equity
 

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