New Thornhill Station

[Huntergreed]

The community council in the area I live have recently given out a poll regarding the re-opening of Thornhill station. The station would be between Dumfries and Sanquhar on the Glasgow South Western Line. When would this proposal be put into action and how long can we expect to wait before service is introduced?

 

[70014IronDuke]

The community council in the area I live have recently given out a poll regarding the re-opening of Thornhill station. The station would be between Dumfries and Sanquhar on the Glasgow South Western Line. When would this proposal be put into action and how long can we expect to wait before service is introduced?

Are the platforms/bridges still there at the former site? Probably not, I'd guess - but that might make it a bit quicker. I'd imagine 8 years, if you're lucky, but if any newts have been spotted in the area since WW2, make it 12 years.

Look on the bright side: at least the line might have a few more Sunday trains by then

 

[route:oxford]

Are the platforms/bridges still there at the former site? Probably not, I'd guess - but that might make it a bit quicker. I'd imagine 8 years, if you're lucky, but if any newts have been spotted in the area since WW2, make it 12 years.

Yes, the "Green" stuff is a big issue.

If you can do, get down there late one night with volunteers and a few gallons of Roundup to clear up any risk of anything exciting being found.

 

[Francis]

Both platforms at Thornhill are still intact (or were so in May 2016) for their whole length, although slippery with moss and a fair bit of low undergrowth, The substantial station house on the Carlisle bound platform is lived in, but the two doors leading onto the platform have been bricked up and painted over. Generally the house is in good condition. There are no buildings on the Kilmarnock bound platform and the steps up to it are overgrown and in poor condition. The yard on the Kilmarnock side is used by a haulage firm by the looks of it.
The signal box is on the Carlisle side some 50 yds south of the station.

 

[bluenoxid]

The community council in the area I live have recently given out a poll regarding the re-opening of Thornhill station. The station would be between Dumfries and Sanquhar on the Glasgow South Western Line. When would this proposal be put into action and how long can we expect to wait before service is introduced?

The proposal to improve transport in the area has passed pre STAG stage and the local bodies have agreed to fund STAG part 1 in July for Thornhill. A previous STAG has been ruled out. A Scottish Stations Fund is offering money to support proposals like this but I don't know if this proposal is in a good enough position

 

[47271]

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=95229
http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=105213

Try these older threads containing links to relevant information, the first official discussion I can see was in 2002 if you want to base your timescale on that...

Some way off I fear.

 

[backontrack]

The platforms at Thornhill are still extant. Reopening the station should be fairly simple.

 

[edwin_m]

Yes, the "Green" stuff is a big issue.

If you can do, get down there late one night with volunteers and a few gallons of Roundup to clear up any risk of anything exciting being found.

I hope the poster is not advocating breaking the law.

 

[jimm]

I hope the poster is not advocating breaking the law.

I'm sure he's just joking - not that Roundup would be likely to have much effect on a newt anyway, being a weedkiller.

Given that the station is still pretty much intact from what Francis says above - though some work likely to be needed to meet current standards for platform heights, etc - can't see that amphibians are likely to pose too much of a problem.

 

[Millisle]

The community council in the area I live have recently given out a poll regarding the re-opening of Thornhill station. The station would be between Dumfries and Sanquhar on the Glasgow South Western Line. When would this proposal be put into action and how long can we expect to wait before service is introduced?

What was the outcome of the poll?

 

[Altnabreac]

Census shows
1600 people in village

675 in work

230 work in or near the village

200 work between 20 and 30km from the village (likely to be Dumfries)

Of those 200, 180 use car and 20 use bus to travel currently.

So your market for rail commuting is very small indeed.

 

[backontrack]

Census shows
1600 people in village

675 in work

230 work in or near the village

200 work between 20 and 30km from the village (likely to be Dumfries)

Of those 200, 180 use car and 20 use bus to travel currently.

So your market for rail commuting is very small indeed.

It's a town actually.



[/pedant]

 

[Altnabreac]

It's a town actually.



[/pedant]

A self claimed town.

It doesn't have a market, it was never a Burgh, it has a population of less than 2,000. So it has all the features of a village but claims to be a town.

 

[jimm]

Census shows
1600 people in village

675 in work

230 work in or near the village

200 work between 20 and 30km from the village (likely to be Dumfries)

Of those 200, 180 use car and 20 use bus to travel currently.

So your market for rail commuting is very small indeed.

So all of 400 or 500 fewer than Kirkconnel and Sanquhar just up the line, which both have stations and neither of which is likely to generate a vast flow of commuters either...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

A self claimed town.

It doesn't have a market, it was never a Burgh, it has a population of less than 2,000. So it has all the features of a village but claims to be a town.

If you really want to play this pointless game, Kidlington in Oxfordshire has a population of 17.500, a weekly market and is a village, nearby Charlbury has a population of 3,000, no market, but is a town...

 

[me123]

Census shows
1600 people in village

675 in work

230 work in or near the village

200 work between 20 and 30km from the village (likely to be Dumfries)

Of those 200, 180 use car and 20 use bus to travel currently.

So your market for rail commuting is very small indeed.

An unstaffed halt on the existing line between Glasgow and Dumfries (and Carlisle) would be a relatively modest investment for the community. There would be minimal infrastructure work (looking here, the platforms were actually in decent shape back in 2009).

The numbers aren't great, granted. It is well situated as a park and ride for nearby villages as well, but they won't add all that much to the numbers. But let's remember that the line is already operating and the bulk of the infrastructure is there. It would be a relatively modest investment that could really benefit the community.

Services to Glasgow and Kilmarnock are already in place, so that's all fine and dandy.

If it's going to be of benefit though, there do need to be trains getting into Dumfries for commuters (all 200 of them). The first arrival from the North into the town arrives at 09:00 - too late to be of use to commuters.

An earlier train can be had by taking the current 07:43 Dumfries to Newcastle and turning it back somewhere further North (also providing a commuter train to Carlisle). The timings would work nicely to take the Carlisle-Dumfries service that forms this train and running it up to Sanquhar rather than sitting in Dumfries Yard for quite a while. The train is productive in the time that would be spent idling in a siding. But that would (I think) need more infrastructure work which does come at additional cost. Still, you'd also be wanting a train getting into Dumfries about 45 minutes later, which might mean retiming the morning Glasgow-Carlisle train a bit to get it in earlier than 9 or getting another unit.

You'd also need Northbound trains leaving in the evening peak. There are none in the current timetable. 15:50 is useful for some but too early for most. 18:35 is useful for some, but too late for many. You'd need another train at about 17:30. And that would probably need another unit.

A better solution could come if there is an hourly service on the line. This would make the new station even more attractive and hopefully the recast timetable would see more trains arriving into Dumfries in the rush hour. And it would boost the existing stations too.

So there's quite a bit more needed if this is going to be viable. The station itself comes at a cost, but the additional infrastructure and additional unit(s) needed would push that up somewhat. But it would be a great addition to the community, and I'd like to see this come to fruition.

 

[Altnabreac]

An unstaffed halt on the existing line between Glasgow and Dumfries (and Carlisle) would be a relatively modest investment for the community. There would be minimal infrastructure work (looking here, the platforms were actually in decent shape back in 2009).

The numbers aren't great, granted. It is well situated as a park and ride for nearby villages as well, but they won't add all that much to the numbers. But let's remember that the line is already operating and the bulk of the infrastructure is there. It would be a relatively modest investment that could really benefit the community.

Services to Glasgow and Kilmarnock are already in place, so that's all fine and dandy.

If it's going to be of benefit though, there do need to be trains getting into Dumfries for commuters (all 200 of them). The first arrival from the North into the town arrives at 09:00 - too late to be of use to commuters.

An earlier train can be had by taking the current 07:43 Dumfries to Newcastle and turning it back somewhere further North (also providing a commuter train to Carlisle). The timings would work nicely to take the Carlisle-Dumfries service that forms this train and running it up to Sanquhar rather than sitting in Dumfries Yard for quite a while. The train is productive in the time that would be spent idling in a siding. But that would (I think) need more infrastructure work which does come at additional cost. Still, you'd also be wanting a train getting into Dumfries about 45 minutes later, which might mean retiming the morning Glasgow-Carlisle train a bit to get it in earlier than 9 or getting another unit.

You'd also need Northbound trains leaving in the evening peak. There are none in the current timetable. 15:50 is useful for some but too early for most. 18:35 is useful for some, but too late for many. You'd need another train at about 17:30. And that would probably need another unit.

A better solution could come if there is an hourly service on the line. This would make the new station even more attractive and hopefully the recast timetable would see more trains arriving into Dumfries in the rush hour. And it would boost the existing stations too.

So there's quite a bit more needed if this is going to be viable. The station itself comes at a cost, but the additional infrastructure and additional unit(s) needed would push that up somewhat. But it would be a great addition to the community, and I'd like to see this come to fruition.

If we look at Annan which has a decent service to Dumfries the Census shows that of those commuting 20-30km (which broadly corresponds to Dumfries and Carlisle) there are 634 out of a total 3,621 working in those areas. This is reasonably similar to Thornhill.

Of those 634 the rail share was 19 (around 3%). So that suggests even with a new rail halt and new services at a suitable commuting time your potential market at Thornhill is in the region of 6 commuters per day.

That doesn't take into account the disbenefit from the station at Thornhill being remote from the town/village centre.

I don't think that is going to make for a business case. Whether it is a town or a village it is very unlikely to justify a railway station without a large quantity of housing development (at least 2-3,000 houses I'd reckon), which would quadruple the size of Thornhill and I suspect be totally unacceptable locally.

 

[backontrack]

If you really want to play this pointless game, Kidlington in Oxfordshire has a population of 17.500, a weekly market and is a village, nearby Charlbury has a population of 3,000, no market, but is a town...

Very true.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

A self claimed town.

It doesn't have a market, it was never a Burgh, it has a population of less than 2,000. So it has all the features of a village but claims to be a town.

It is not a 'self claimed' town, it is a town and Dumfries & Galloway regard it as such.

 

[Altnabreac]

Very true.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


It is not a 'self claimed' town, it is a town and Dumfries & Galloway regard it as such.

They may well do but the point is no matter whether it is a town or a village it looks to be too small to have a viable business case for a new station.

Happy for someone else to try and show some different numbers but I really can't see much demand that this station will meet.

The SWESTrans pre appraisal from Peter Brett Associates showed something similar. It advised that Dunragit and Closeburn should not be pursued at all. It also identified Beattock as only being possible once additional High Speed capacity had been created.

As for Eastrigg and Thornhill the pre-appraisal has this to say:

Further work could be done to investigate the potential for stations at Thornhill and Eastriggs based on consideration of their use as dual purpose passenger / rail freight hubs but it is noted that justifying and delivering either station at present would be challenging.

Swestrans also note that there is no capital funding available from Dumfries and Galloway Council and as the Scottish Station fund is only able to part fund schemes it means that circa £5m for each station will need to be found from other sources such as Developer Contributions. Hence my suggestion that 2-3,000 houses will be needed to both create demand and provide a source of capital.

See this report for more details:
http://swestrans.org.uk/CHttpHandler.ashx?id=18405&p=0

 

[47271]

I don't refute the figures on available local catchment - populations are tiny even within 15 minutes drive - but it does seem bonkers that a far from high speed service trundles through 30 miles of double tracked route and cruises by the most significant centre of population, which also sits at a confluence of main roads, in that distance. It's not like there's even single track - like Newburgh - or high speed traffic bearing down - Beattock - to excuse the omission.

I'm not one for less than totally rational reopenings normally, but the far from thriving mid Nithsdale and north east Stewartry could really do with this.

Saying that, I'll be pleasantly surprised if it happens within the decade.

 

[me123]

I am under no illusion that it's not going to be the most groundbreaking reopening ever made, and I would agree that the figures don't look brilliant. Perhaps my heart is ruling my head on this one. If there weren't already a railway line and service and existing (closed) station there I wouldn't even be entertaining the idea.

But I would like to see it happen. As I've said, it needs a better timetable if it is to serve as a Dumfries commuter route (which is presumably the idea). As a package alongside higher frequencies for all stations it would certainly bring benefit to the area, and I've always maintained that a true hourly service on the line would be worthwhile (albeit more as a service to Carlisle and Glasgow than as a Dumfries commuter service). An indicative journey time of c10 minutes (real time trains) is impressive and competitive compared to buses and the car (c25 minutes), and as a well marketed park and ride it might help to get some cars out of the town.

And Annan has also got the disadvantage of poor timings for commuters to Dumfries - 0853 is just a bit too late for many to be arriving in Dumfries (this being the only service that realistically serves commuters). Unless you work immediately adjacent to the station then you'll be late for a 9am start.

 

[70014IronDuke]

I am under no illusion that it's not going to be the most groundbreaking reopening ever made, ....

But I would like to see it happen. As I've said, it needs a better timetable if it is to serve as a Dumfries commuter route (which is presumably the idea). As a package alongside higher frequencies for all stations it would certainly bring benefit to the area, and I've always maintained that a true hourly service on the line would be worthwhile (albeit more as a service to Carlisle and Glasgow than as a Dumfries commuter service). ............

And Annan has also got the disadvantage of poor timings for commuters to Dumfries - 0853 is just a bit too late for many to be arriving in Dumfries (this being the only service that realistically serves commuters). Unless you work immediately adjacent to the station then you'll be late for a 9am start.

Whether a re-opened Thornhill can, as a business case, be justified or not I get the feeling that nobody in the right places cares much for the G&SW. I'm a long way from the line, and don't know it well, but it seems the various power institutions are all for investing in infrastructure and investing in services in the Glasgow-Edinburgh central belt, Fife, Aberdeen, even the Highland Main Line, and not to mention the Waverley, of course.

It's only right that the central belt does get a lot of attention - it's where most people live, but the seeming lack of any drive to improve things on the G&SW, at least outside the Kilmarnock - Glasgow section, just seems disproportionate. It's as if the powers at be are saying: "OK, we are not going to close you, of course, but otherwise, we can't be bothered. Just get on with what you've got."

Others with better knowledge, please correct me, but it seems as if, even after the Lamington bridge diversions last winter showed its value as a strategic alternative route, nobody appears remotely interested in raising the line speeds. As for more trains, well, the stock shortage is a most convenient answer to put that one to bed - except on a Sunday, when there are just two through trains over the length of the route, and one of those is very late in the evening.

Anyone travelling south from Kilmarnock? you can just go up to Glasgow and change trains. Long distance from Dumfries or Annan and you want a train and guaranteed connections at Carlisle? Forget that - just get into your car and drive to Lockerbie!

Given this seeming lack of interest at the top, the only potential driver that i can see is from the local public - someone on the ground needs to take up the cudgels and get people to lobby relentlessly for better. Seems to me 'tis a pity someone like our friend who is determined to reopen the Port Road can't shift his energies a little to the west and a more realistic development like long-term improvements to the G&SW.

 

[me123]

There is strong support from the local council for rail in general, though. Which may just help to swing things the right way. Plus, the region hold some of Scotland's less safe seats in the political arena (there's little difference between the SNP and the Tories, and incumbents have relatively slender majorities), so a party that promises investment could gain brownie points with voters. And Thornhill station is a relatively cheap and easy scheme compared to, for example, the Dumfries to Stranraer route (although let's not go back down that road...).

1tph isn't much to ask, and I think that will probably happen eventually. There's got to be demand for travel from Dumfries certainly, if not from elsewhere. From there, you can hopefully start to induce some demand for travel on the line.

My heart's clearly ruling my head on this one, but I'd be happy to see it come to fruition and would support any local campaigns for the station to reopen.

 

[backontrack]

What about Eastriggs?

 

[Altnabreac]

What about Eastriggs?

Eastriggs probably has the best business case of any of the potential Swestrans stations. You can commute to Dumfries, Carlisle or Gretna, there are existing services at commutable times, marginally higher population than Thornhill and a more centrally located station.

The main problem will be a lack of capital funding for a new station. Again a chunk of new housing would be helpful to achieving a new station here.

The question is whether that sort of scale of development required is acceptable locally.

 

[me123]

My only objection to Eastriggs would be the same as with the other stations - there needs to be viable commuting options.

The existing services from the South into Dumfries, as I've said above, aren't great for commuters to the town (arrivals into DMF at 05:46, 06:46 then 08:53 then 11:53). You'd really need to have a better timetable to make Eastriggs work. In the process, you'll hopefully improve the prospect of Northbound communing from Annan and the other stations too.

 

[jr284]

I commute on this line 2-3 times a week in both directions and in the past used to use it loads to go to London. Anyway, one of the guards told me recently that the plan is to go hourly in May.

Currently the (mostly) two hourly service does my head in, just because it's so inflexible though an improvement on when the services used to be kind of random.

Given that the class 156 trains are being superceeded all over the place with electrification the guard's assertion did sound credible, especially as the mines have all but closed now - I think that was always given as an excuse for poor passenger service.

On Thornhill, the previous poster is right the platforms are very obviously still there when you go through and in reasonable nick... having been involved in local politics many years ago, the objections to investment always centred around just how far the the station would be from Thornhill proper.

Anyway... I can't find anything official about this service improvement - has anyone else heard about it?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

On Thornhill, the previous poster is right the platforms are very obviously still there when you go through and in reasonable nick... having been involved in local politics many years ago, the objections to investment always centred around just how far the the station would be from Thornhill proper.

Anyway... I can't find anything official about this service improvement - has anyone else heard about it?

Has anything official been forthcoming in the three months since this thread has been launched?

 

[Huntergreed]

From inside the village, there have been no official announcements made regarding the reopening of the station or an increase to an hourly sprinter service, would there be good potential for this to happen? I believe it needs to happen as the service is currently extremely poor compared to other parts of the country.

 

[jr284]

From inside the village, there have been no official announcements made regarding the reopening of the station or an increase to an hourly sprinter service, would there be good potential for this to happen? I believe it needs to happen as the service is currently extremely poor compared to other parts of the country.

There have been some official announcements recently by SWESTRANS, and one of the local MSPs has pledged support. Basically though, SWESTRANS are saying that they support the re-opening of the station at Thornhill and that there is a viable business case for it, at least according to their consultants. The killer issue, which makes me thing the project is still born is that the consultants have said that despite the platforms still being there etc... that a capital investment of £11m would be required.

Given that D&G council and Swestrans are currently cutting everything the can, look at the busses, it looks like this isn't a go-er. There's no chance of finding any of this money in my view.

 

[TSAG]

An Action Group has now been formed to put a case forward to open a station at Thornhill.

An overwhelming response by the local community was received at a public meeting in March, alongside support from local Councillors and MSP's. Awareness and support is building with lots of articles and coverage in the local press and on Border ITV.

Thornhill Station Action Group are currently working with the local community on a business case highlighting the many reasons and desperate need for a station at Thornhill.

Anyone travelling on the Glasgow South West Line will know that Dumfries to Sanquhar remains the LONGEST stretch of line in SW Scotland without the facility of a train stopping at a station - even though the trains pass through Thornhill Station every day! We need the trains to STOP at Thornhill!!!

We are eagerly awaiting the SWestrans Board to reconvine at their Board Meeting in July.
1, we await details on the latest report (STAG 1) and
2, a decision on whether Thornhill Station will progress to the next stage of the process (STAG 2).

We will endeavour to keep updates posted on this forum, as developments move forward in the future.

For more information please see & like our Facebook page, twitter or website.
Thank you.
Thornhill Station Action Group