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No case: why are so many NIMBY’s protesting against rail infrastructure?

Tetchytyke

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However nuclear also gets a lot of NIMBY responses, which are sometimes the most fictional of them all.
Depends who you believe.

There was a massive childhood leukaemia spike in the area around Sellafield. Experts from the government investigated and came to the conclusion that the nuclear power plant/dumping ground at the bottom of the street had nothing to do with it, it was all down to an unknown and unidentified viral infection.

It was the same infection that caused a similar spike of leukaemia in children living near Dounreay.

What are the chances!

People shouldn't be allowed to block national infrastructure such as HS2.
But they are allowed to, if they’re rich. As we’ve seen repeatedly, and not just with HS2. The wiggly route into Birmingham somehow magically missing all the rich people around Solihull and the (now cancelled) wiggly route into Manchester somehow magically all the rich people around Alderley Edge.
 
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ainsworth74

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There was a massive childhood leukaemia spike in the area around Sellafield. Experts from the government investigated and came to the conclusion that the nuclear power plant/dumping ground at the bottom of the street had nothing to do with it, it was all down to an unknown and unidentified viral infection.

It was the same infection that caused a similar spike of leukaemia in children living near Dounreay.

What are the chances!

Are there are sources for this? I'm as suspicious of the British government as anyone but I feel like this might need a bit more!
 

Tetchytyke

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Are there are sources for this? I'm as suspicious of the British government as anyone but I feel like this might need a bit more!
Sorry, should have added it.


The excess of childhood leukaemia (CL) in Seascale, near the Sellafield nuclear reprocessing site in rural NW England, suggested that an epidemic of an underlying infection, to which CL is a rare response, is promoted by marked population mixing (PM) in rural areas, in which the prevalence of susceptibles is higher than average. This hypothesis has been confirmed by 12 studies in non-radiation situations. Of the five established CL excesses near nuclear sites, four are associated with significant PM; in the fifth, the Krummel power station in Germany, the subject has not been thoroughly investigated.

In 1986, an excess of CL was reported near Dounreay, Britain's other nuclear reprocessing site (Heasman et al, 1986). Here, the much lower radioactive discharges than at Sellafield prompted reflection on what other factor these two areas had in common. Seascale was a cul-de-sac in an isolated coastal area while Dounreay, on the northern edge of the Scottish mainland, was far from any conurbation; moreover, both had experienced marked population influxes: might this be relevant? Epidemics on islands have often been unusually severe, as in the case of measles in Faroe and of poliomyelitis in St Helena in the 19th century, and in Malta and Mauritius in the 20th century. As is now well understood, this reflects the importance for an epidemic of a high prevalence of susceptible individuals, which in isolated places is promoted by the reduced opportunities for contacts with a wider infective pool.
 

Bald Rick

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Sorry, should have added it.


For completeness, have their been similar spikes anywhere else in the country over the past 50 years?
 

BingMan

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Depends who you believe.

There was a massive childhood leukaemia spike in the area around Sellafield. Experts from the government investigated and came to the conclusion that the nuclear power plant/dumping ground at the bottom of the street had nothing to do with it, it was all down to an unknown and unidentified viral infection.

It was the same infection that caused a similar spike of leukaemia in children living near Dounreay.
Probably due to the large influx of foreign building workers bringing in viruses to which the locals, unlike the incomers, had no resistance
 

dangie

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It’s very easy to criticise NIMBY’s when the development is not in your back yard, but when that time comes that the development is in your back yard, everyone will become a NIMBY.
 

generalnerd

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Sorry, should have added it.

That could have been the windscale fire (for sellafield) however have any other (than the two mentioned) nuclear power plants caused wide scale leukaemia?
 

ChrisC

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Reading through this thread and others it seems that there is a real dislike and in some cases hate of NIMBY’s amongst many forum members. It has really made me think about who NIMBY’s actually are and my own opinions on them.

There are those people who will protest about any type of development close to them because it may result in the future value of their property going down. There are those who don’t want land developing close by because it will spoil their view, create more traffic congestion, noise and pollution. Many of these people will even strongly oppose any development on brownfield sites or land which is of very little agricultural value. My experience, living in a village, is that the people who are most likely to be NIMBY’s are wealthy people who have moved into the village from outside. The very people who then complain about the mud on the road from tractors, the noise from the church bells, lack of street lighting and pavements etc. I have very little time for people like and to me they are the NIMBY’s who cause the trouble and stop progress.

There are also many people whose main concern is not the value of their own property but damage to the landscape or environment. Those who do protest about building on valuable agricultural land, destroying historical sites and buildings, destroying ancient woodlands and habitats, I have far more time for. I’m not sure whether I would use the derogatory term NIMBY to describe someone who has a genuine concern for the countryside, environment and history. In some of these cases I think the protesters are to be applauded and I could quite easily join them myself.

Some posters have described NIMBY’s as people who want to preserve villages and the countryside as a museum. Going back 40-50 years the village where I live was very much a working agricultural village. It’s the rich people who have moved in from the city who have turned it into a museum. Most of the farms have gone, local people can no longer afford houses here, the centre of the village has been designated a conservation area, but these people who have moved in and created the museum, don’t want any new housing or their view taken away.

I find it a difficult subject. I hate to see beautiful countryside built on, but we do need more housing. New roads and rail routes do make a big impact wherever they are built, but what what would have done without the M62?
 

Acfb

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But they are allowed to, if they’re rich. As we’ve seen repeatedly, and not just with HS2. The wiggly route into Birmingham somehow magically missing all the rich people around Solihull and the (now cancelled) wiggly route into Manchester somehow magically all the rich people around Alderley Edge.
Is this really true? I thought this was debunked a while ago. I thought it had to take the route it was going to to serve the M56/Hale Barns Manchester Airport Parkway Station.
 

jon0844

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But they are allowed to, if they’re rich. As we’ve seen repeatedly, and not just with HS2. The wiggly route into Birmingham somehow magically missing all the rich people around Solihull and the (now cancelled) wiggly route into Manchester somehow magically all the rich people around Alderley Edge.

I thought the wiggly nature was so HS2 DID cross the land of some rich landowners, so they were suitably compensated?

IMO It's perfectly valid for people to raise concerns about a new housing development that will leave surrounding roads completely saturated, and not ensuring that new schools or hospitals are built (remembering that developers know all the tricks to avoiding having to pay out S.106 funding). That's what the planning process should be about, rather than people just being against something full stop - often with spurious arguments.

I look at a lot of planning applications for mobile site upgrades and the cost to the industry to fight objections, even when ultimately the network will win after all the time wasting, is huge. We obviously all pay that, as well as find ourselves visiting places of natural beauty where you can't get a phone signal.
 

RT4038

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There are those people who will protest about any type of development close to them because it may result in the future value of their property going down. There are those who don’t want land developing close by because it will spoil their view, create more traffic congestion, noise and pollution. Many of these people will even strongly oppose any development on brownfield sites or land which is of very little agricultural value. My experience, living in a village, is that the people who are most likely to be NIMBY’s are wealthy people who have moved into the village from outside. The very people who then complain about the mud on the road from tractors, the noise from the church bells, lack of street lighting and pavements etc. I have very little time for people like and to me they are the NIMBY’s who cause the trouble and stop progress.
So are you suggesting that people who protest about any type of development close to them (whether by nuisance, spoilt view, traffic congestion, noise, pollution or whatever) that may result in the substantive value of their property going down should not be taken any notice of? Would you like the value of your property to be reduced, possibly trapping you in that location, quite aside from having to live with such nuisances that weren't there when the property was purchased? (And yes, some people are completely unreasonable and buy rural properties without considering the implications.....)

Some posters have described NIMBY’s as people who want to preserve villages and the countryside as a museum. Going back 40-50 years the village where I live was very much a working agricultural village. It’s the rich people who have moved in from the city who have turned it into a museum. Most of the farms have gone, local people can no longer afford houses here, the centre of the village has been designated a conservation area, but these people who have moved in and created the museum, don’t want any new housing or their view taken away.
Some villagers will have made a lot of money selling their properties and land to the wealthy incomers (either directly or via developers), a process accelerated by car ownership of the better off in the 60s and 70s, and farm mechanisation and consolidation. Those villagers did not concern themselves with 'local people' , many of whom will have wanted at that time to move to the urban areas for work and pleasure. Now that car ownership is practicably available for virtually everyone, they now find themselves priced out. I do not expect any of the 'local people' you mention have any livelihood in the village, so it is no different to many urban dwellers who cannot afford to buy property in the more desirable parts of town where their parents brought them up. The villages have become by and large up market housing estates of the town separated from the oiks by a bit of countryside.
 

dangie

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I’ll be honest. I’m a NIMBY. I use public transport quite a lot, particularly buses. I‘d like to have a bus stop near to my house, but I wouldn’t want a bus stop outside my house. When I drive I use the motorway, but I wouldn’t want one meters from my back garden.
 

Tetchytyke

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That could have been the windscale fire (for sellafield) however have any other (than the two mentioned) nuclear power plants caused wide scale leukaemia?
For completeness, have their been similar spikes anywhere else in the country over the past 50 years?
The research was into the clusters by nuclear power plants, so I don't know (and haven't looked) if there were similar spikes anywhere else. My guess would be not- the spikes at Seascale and Dounreay wouldn't be so notable if there had been.

There were five spikes in the study and they decided it was due to a viral infection in four of the five, with no data available in the fifth.

Probably due to the large influx of foreign building workers bringing in viruses to which the locals, unlike the incomers, had no resistance
That is the theory. And we do know some viruses do cause cancer, most notably HPV.

However we also know that radiation exposure causes cancer...

I find it a difficult subject. I hate to see beautiful countryside built on, but we do need more housing. New roads and rail routes do make a big impact wherever they are built, but what what would have done without the M62?
It is a difficult subject. Sometimes stuff has to be built. Wherever it is built, it will upset someone. Nobody wants to have their peaceful home get deluged by noise and dirt and have their beautiful view replaced by lighting pylons and tarmac. Build something in the middle of nowhere and it is ruining a wilderness; build it in a semi-urban area and it is destroying green space or it will overwhelm local services.

The problem is that the planning system does not protect the people who have to live next to these developments. Companies can and do make all sorts of promises when they're submitting planning applications. They then systematically try and wiggle out of all of these promises once they've got the planning permission. And, by and large, they get away with it. The developers' pockets are deeper than the local athorities' pockets and so they simply use and abuse the legal system to get what they want.

As I said, I used to live near a stone quarry in Cumbria. The company which owned the site had legally enforceable convenants against them to restore the land when it finished. So, on the last day of quarrying, they removed all their equipment and then folded the company. The quarry, funnily enough, hasn't been restored. It closed in 2005.

We see it with housing developments all the time. They'll build shops, they'll build a school, they'll build 25% affordable housing. Once the planning is granted then suddenly all these promises are no longer "commercially viable" and so they get whittled away to nothing.

Look at the Aylesbury Vale development. There's nothing there. The builders didn't want to build shops and a secondary school, so they didn't.
 

generalnerd

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There are also many people whose main concern is not the value of their own property but damage to the landscape or environment. Those who do protest about building on valuable agricultural land, destroying historical sites and buildings, destroying ancient woodlands and habitats, I have far more time for. I’m not sure whether I would use the derogatory term NIMBY to describe someone who has a genuine concern for the countryside, environment and history. In some of these cases I think the protesters are to be applauded and I could quite easily join them myself.
These are not NIMBYS… these are people who believe in something strongly, even if I do not agree. The NIMBYS I hate are the ones who (as you mentioned) don’t like any development and often protest for environmental reasons simply to have a reason that isn’t just ‘I want a nide view of the countryside’

The research was into the clusters by nuclear power plants, so I don't know (and haven't looked) if there were similar spikes anywhere else. My guess would be not- the spikes at Seascale and Dounreay wouldn't be so notable if there had been.
Oh no, sorry i wasn’t clear, I mean were there any other spikes at other areas with nuclear power plants, although you do need to check if there had been other spikes elsewhere in general as some people do take information and smaller chunks and not show the whole pictures. Sorry for the confusion.

I’d just like to note that, while I do think opposing housing estates just for the views isn’t great, I do often agree with oppositions to housing estates, especially when built by greedy developers. It’s oppositions I infrastructure used by many that I have an issue with.

I’ll be honest. I’m a NIMBY. I use public transport quite a lot, particularly buses. I‘d like to have a bus stop near to my house, but I wouldn’t want a bus stop outside my house. When I drive I use the motorway, but I wouldn’t want one meters from my back garden.
The motorway part I agree with, but the bus stop part (unless you live on a quiet street that’s off larger roads) is very NIMBY (or NIMFY (not in my front garden) in this case). It’s one of the reasons things never get built, as nobody wants it near then, and why projects end up in a vicious cycle. People will hate you (the local government) if it’s built and will hate you if it’s not.
 
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Nicholas Lewis

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People with too much time on their hands and in most cases need to get a life, as stated above, these people interfere in all walks of life and it is certainly not exclusive to the railways.
The system enables it in the first place. Labour need to have a bonfire of the legislation first then get on and build it.
 

jon0844

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The motorway part I agree with, but the bus stop part (unless you live on a quiet street that’s off larger roads) is very NIMBY (or NIMFY (not in my front garden) in this case). It’s one of the reasons things never get built, as nobody wants it near then, and why projects end up in a vicious cycle. People will hate you (the local government) if it’s built and will hate you if it’s not.

I'd love a bus stop outside my house!
 

RT4038

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The problem is that the planning system does not protect the people who have to live next to these developments. Companies can and do make all sorts of promises when they're submitting planning applications. They then systematically try and wiggle out of all of these promises once they've got the planning permission. And, by and large, they get away with it. The developers' pockets are deeper than the local athorities' pockets and so they simply use and abuse the legal system to get what they want.
So there needs to be a legal framework of planning which doesn't allow this to happen. The system has to allow Developers to make their profits though (otherwise they won't develop), so this means being able to sell the houses, so this means that the infrastructure contribution can't be pushing the completed house prices too high. This will necessarily restrict what the Developer can be expected to pay for.

We see it with housing developments all the time. They'll build shops, they'll build a school, they'll build 25% affordable housing. Once the planning is granted then suddenly all these promises are no longer "commercially viable" and so they get whittled away to nothing.
So if they are not 'commercially viable', what can the Developer do? The Planning Authority demand this and that infrastructure, this and that feature on the development and the only way of funding it is to build houses on the shop site (which probably wouldn't have got a buyer anyway), or sell a % of the affordable housing as premium housing. It has got to be realised that the more 'non-commercial' demands on the Developer, the more the houses cost and the greater the difficulty of selling them. One thing for sure, the Developer is not going to lose out.

Look at the Aylesbury Vale development. There's nothing there. The builders didn't want to build shops and a secondary school, so they didn't.
At a recent new development to me, the Developer was requested by the Local Authority to pay £25m for a new secondary school, which they did. Only trouble is, by the time the Development reached that stage, the cost of the school had gone up to £45m. The Local Authority did not have the funding for the gap, so the school has not been built and the pupils are bussed elsewhere.

As I said, I used to live near a stone quarry in Cumbria. The company which owned the site had legally enforceable convenants against them to restore the land when it finished. So, on the last day of quarrying, they removed all their equipment and then folded the company. The quarry, funnily enough, hasn't been restored. It closed in 2005.
Sounds pretty predictable.
 

Tetchytyke

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The system enables it in the first place. Labour need to have a bonfire of the legislation first then get on and build it.
No. We need the exact opposite. We need a legal mechanism to force developers to put appropriate mitigations in place. And we need real legal and financial consequences against developers who try to welch out of their promises.

My view is that most people wouldn't outright object to proposals if they knew that developers wouldn't be allowed to take the absolute Micky Bliss once the planning permission is approved.

This is the real problem, and it happens too often. Planning permission will include landscaping- it doesn't happen. Planning permission will include acoustic barriers or trees, etc- it doesn't happen. Children's playgrounds- doesn't happen. Planning permission will put in mitigations against construction noise and dirt- it doesn't happen or is routinely ignored.

Here's some random examples:

Persimmon Homes built 125 homes on land at Cheadle, in Staffordshire, and raised the ground level of the estate by 2.4 metres to make the site flat.

Neighbours claim some of the homes at Pottery Gardens are blocking sunlight.

The developer said it was seeking "non-material amendments" to its application to keep the homes as they are.

If permission is refused, some of those living on the estate, off Froghall Road, could see their properties flattened, the chairman of Staffordshire Moorlands District Council's planning committee warned.

Planners have deferred a decision so they can speak to residents. It is understood that eight of the 125 properties are affected, according to the Local Democracy Reporting Service.

The authority's lawyers have also warned the homes could have "zero value" on the open market as they were sold without proper planning permission.

'Dire situation'
Residents in nearby Ness Grove and Froghall Road first complained to the council in October 2021, according to homeowner Tracy Milward.

She described the properties as "overbearing" and claimed they blocked sunlight in their gardens.

"This development has been built in breach of the planning application submitted. They have built too high, and too close to the surrounding properties.

"Consequently ours, and many of our neighbours' properties, are now dwarfed and dominated by this unsightly development."

She said the council would effectively be giving the developer "carte blanche" if they were given the go-ahead.


But the Standard can now reveal Maldon District Council has taken enforcement action against Persimmon Homes after it failed to adhere to a landscaping condition attached to the planning permission for 145 homes on land west of Broad Street Green Road, Swifts Boulevard.

A spokesman for the council said: "Maldon District Council has taken planning enforcement action against Persimmon Homes by serving a Breach of Condition Notice associated with the failure to adhere to a landscaping condition attached to planning permission granted on June 24, 2015, for 145 dwellings and associated landscaping and open spaces.


West Suffolk Council has said it plans to serve two Breach of Condition Notices on Persimmon Homes after 'a string of delays' to the £10m Haverhill Relief Road.

The authority said the developer 'could face court proceedings and an unlimited fine unless it holds to its latest timetable to deliver a relief road in Haverhill'.

The relief road was originally due to be completed by March 2023 but the completion date was reportedly pushed back by Persimmon, firstly to Spring 2024, then September 2024 and now apparently to the end of the year.

Cllr Jim Thorndyke, cabinet member for planning at West Suffolk Council, said: 'We have seen delay after delay and excuse after excuse. I am frustrated, annoyed and disappointed by this latest delay by the developers.

'We know how important this relief road is to the community and to the sustainable growth of the town and we want it delivered without further setback. Through serving this notice, our expectation is this delay will be the last.

'We have previously discussed enforcement action based on what material harm may or may not be caused to the highway network but the advice from Suffolk County Council highways is that there isn’t sufficient impact caused to back enforcement action.

'But the truth remains that the road should already be open by now, that Persimmon is in breach of its planning conditions and this continuous cycle of delay is resulting in a lack of public confidence in the planning system.

Persimmon Homes has been fined after construction workers were found to be working on a Sunday morning, breaching planning regulations
Persimmon Homes was discovered working on a Sunday morning at its 300-home Lathro Park development in Kinross.

Bosses initially said its contractors were undertaking emergency work, however, they later apologised for the breach of planning regulations and assured that it would not happen again.

Perth and Kinross Council chiefs confirmed that a fixed penalty notice had been issued against the firm, following a complaint from a nearby resident.

The company has been fined £300, although that can be reduced to £225 if they pay within 15 days.

A £300 fine for making a load of noise when they said they wouldn't. That's just a cost of doing business. So no wonder they ignore the conditions.

The Cheadle example is the worst of the lot. They built the properties 8 feet higher than they should have done because it was cheaper than lowering the land. Five years later Persimmon are still fighting the legal battle against the poor sods who have these horrible nasty Persimmon houses looming over their gardens.

And you want to give Persimmon free reign to do whatever they want?!?

The planning process is supposed to be a negotiation, a compromise between competing interests. Instead what happens is that developers promise the moon on a stick at the planning stage and then "run out of money" once they've got the planning application. They're pretty safe in the knowledge that, as they have deeper pockets than the local authorities, they can get away with it.

If people could actually have some faith in the planning process in this country maybe, just maybe, they wouldn't feel compelled to object to everything.

I'd love a bus stop outside my house!
I wouldn't. A double decker bus every ten minutes letting everyone peer in through my bedroom window, from 5.30am until midnight every single day. No, ta.

Oh no, sorry i wasn’t clear, I mean were there any other spikes at other areas with nuclear power plants
The study was into spikes at five nuclear power plants, and in four of the cases they found it was this mysterious virus. No evidence either way in the fifth case, in Germany.
 
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RT4038

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No. We need the exact opposite. We need a legal mechanism to force developers to put appropriate mitigations in place. And we need real legal and financial consequences against developers who try to welch out of their promises.
Local Authorities have house building targets to meet. Developers want to build houses, sell them and make a profit. Local Authorities and other local interests also want to get the maximum infrastructure built at the Developer's expense. Often these cannot be reconciled, and don't forget that there are some parties who don't want them to be reconciled in the hopes of stalling or cancelling the development.

The planning process is supposed to be a negotiation, a compromise between competing interests. Instead what happens is that developers promise the moon on a stick at the planning stage and then "run out of money" once they've got the planning application. They're pretty safe in the knowledge that, as they have deeper pockets than the local authorities, they can get away with it.
Likewise Local Authorities and other interests ask for the moon where there is no way that these are going to be delivered. (You know, the Developers must take lower profits in order to get planning permission - just not going to happen). It is a negotiation, but hardly an open one.

Tightening up the laws and rules are necessary for all sorts of reasons [having Unitary Authorities should be a help] , but unless we can start forcing people to buy houses at above the prevailing market rate then the demands on Developers need to be realistic too.
 

Tetchytyke

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Local Authorities and other local interests also want to get the maximum infrastructure built at the Developer's expense.
Extra houses need extra facilities- extra doctors surgeries, extra schools, extra roads, extra public transport. Of course the developer should fund these, otherwise the burden falls on the existing residents who see none of the benefit of the development. The other option would be to surcharge the purchasers of these new houses?

Of course the developers don't want to pay for these. How are Persimmon going to afford to give their CEO a £100M bonus and give the senior management team another £500M if they have to do things like plant trees and tidy up after themselves. What would the shareholders say?

Much easier- and cheaper- to build houses eight feet higher than you agreed to and to hell with the poor sods who have to live with the consequences. Trebles all round!
unless we can start forcing people to buy houses at above the prevailing market rate then the demands on Developers need to be realistic too.
The prevailing market rate, of course, has absolutely no correlation whatsoever with the amount that houses cost to build. The only correlation the prevailing market rate has is with 'the amount a bank will lend someone for a mortgage'.

Take away all developer obligations and the price of new houses would fall by £0.00. But the CEO would be thrilled. Those £200,000 Range Rovers don't buy themselves!
 

The Ham

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So are you suggesting that people who protest about any type of development close to them (whether by nuisance, spoilt view, traffic congestion, noise, pollution or whatever) that may result in the substantive value of their property going down should not be taken any notice of? Would you like the value of your property to be reduced, possibly trapping you in that location, quite aside from having to live with such nuisances that weren't there when the property was purchased? (And yes, some people are completely unreasonable and buy rural properties without considering the implications.....)

It's not uncommon for some of the concerns to be overstated.

For example, many will say that 100 new homes will add 200 cars to the roads, if not 300

Often the car ownership rates don't, but even if they do the issue isn't people driving when the roads are quiet, it's generally when the roads are at their busiest.

In the peak hour typically those 100 new homes will add 66 cars trips to the network with 44 heading away and 22 heading towards the site.

However, chances are those 44 heading away will split between 2 directions at the junction with the existing road, so rarely would you be dealing with more than 35 cars in one direction on an existing road.

Given a half reasonable two way roads can fairly easily carry 1,000 cars in each direction the impact from 100 homes would likely be limited.

Even 1,000 homes would likely be far less of an issue than many fear (especially as there'll be at least two access and on site facilities which means that some travel doesn't require leaving the site, for example going to the school on site or the convenience store on site).
 

james60059

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It’s not anti rail. It’s anti development of any kind. If it was a road, a housing estate, or some electricity pylons, it would be the same. I’m reminded of the scene in Gavin & Stacey where Gavin’s mum is trying to organise a protest a new phone mast being erected nearby, but gets frustrated because she can’t call her friends about it due to a rubbish signal…

There was a similar story line in London's Burning when firefighter Bert Quigley befriended a group of protestors, protesting about a new bypass road because a rare plant was in the way - although little did he realise at the time, the "Plan B" alternative route would run right behind Bert's back garden...:lol:
 

Tetchytyke

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For example, many will say that 100 new homes will add 200 cars to the roads, if not 300

Often the car ownership rates don't, but even if they do the issue isn't people driving when the roads are quiet, it's generally when the roads are at their busiest.
There are now, on average, 12 cars for every 10 households. However this only tells part of the story: 22% of households don’t have a car at all but 33% of households have more than one. Car ownership, and multi-car ownership, is as you’d expect focused on the higher socioeconomic groups.

New housing developments are also focused on these groups as they’re the ones who can afford to buy new homes. So yes, a new housing estate of 100 homes probably will add somewhere between 200 and 300 cars to the local roads. The 22% who can’t afford/don’t want a car aren’t the ones who are buying executive new build houses on the edge of town.

In the peak hour typically those 100 new homes will add 66 cars trips to the network with 44 heading away and 22 heading towards the site.
You’ll have to show your working out on this one.

People in these estates are in the higher socioeconomic groups, i.e. at least two people in the household will be in full time work. So 100 houses will result in a minimum of 100 cars leaving the estate in the direction of the main city or employment hotspot, and probably closer to 200 given the way these households are generally multi-car households. Add in the kids driving to college…

Given a half reasonable two way roads can fairly easily carry 1,000 cars in each direction the impact from 100 homes would likely be limited.
The problem, of course, is that this hypothetical road will already have 1000 cars on it, so adding another 300 will tip it over the edge.
 

Bald Rick

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There are now, on average, 12 cars for every 10 households. However this only tells part of the story: 22% of households don’t have a car at all but 33% of households have more than one. Car ownership, and multi-car ownership, is as you’d expect focused on the higher socioeconomic groups.

New housing developments are also focused on these groups as they’re the ones who can afford to buy new homes. So yes, a new housing estate of 100 homes probably will add somewhere between 200 and 300 cars to the local roads. The 22% who can’t afford/don’t want a car aren’t the ones who are buying executive new build houses on the edge of town.

But most residential development is required to have a mix of housing, including some affordable, some for social rent, and for larger developments care homes etc. (Every bedroom in a care home is counted as a ‘home’). There is, fortunately, real world data by council ward which shows what recent development, and existing housing stock cause in terms of trips generation for all modes.

For several developments that I am aware of, even in ‘leafy’ St Albans, 100 homes will add roughly the average number of cars, ie 120. Of course many developments are high density near the city centre, and will cause less.


You’ll have to show your working out on this one.

People in these estates are in the higher socioeconomic groups, i.e. at least two people in the household will be in full time work. So 100 houses will result in a minimum of 100 cars leaving the estate in the direction of the main city or employment hotspot, and probably closer to 200 given the way these households are generally multi-car households. Add in the kids driving to college…

@The Ham works in this area AIUI, and will be using real world data from his experience. Going back to St Albans developments, the traffic modelling suggests similar flows that @The Ham suggests. Bear in mind it is the peak hour flow: only 2/3rds of the population are of working age, and only 75% of them actually have jobs, not all will be ‘office hours’ and therefore avoiding the peak hour, and of course there is working at home. So it is reasonable to assume that actual peak hour trip generation is rather lower than you suggest.


The problem, of course, is that this hypothetical road will already have 1000 cars on it, so adding another 300 will tip it over the edge.

That is the problem. Again, taking one of the proposed developments in St Albans (1100 homes north of the city), even one additional trip generated will just add to existing the 2km / 20 minute queue that exists for the peak hour (and only an hour) in the morning.
 

Tetchytyke

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For several developments that I am aware of, even in ‘leafy’ St Albans, 100 homes will add roughly the average number of cars, ie 120. Of course many developments are high density near the city centre, and will cause less.
I imagine it will very much depend on location. Outer London will, perhaps counter-intuitively, have less car usage because most people of working age will be heading into London for work. People who can walk to the station probably will do so, owing to the prohibitive cost of car parking at stations like St Albans City. I certainly wasn't alone in walking to the station in Hemel. My experience of St Albans was always that Saturday was the worst day for traffic jams, as everyone who worked in London during the week had a mooch round the shops at the weekend (Mrs Tyke and I included)

Where I lived in North Tyneside (a 2010 vintage estate) was different. Everyone drove, even though there was a Metro station a five-minute walk away. The houses were designed for the standard 1.2 cars per household and there was a mix in the development of flats, houses, bungalows, etc. Unfortunately this meant the entire estate was like a car park as there was pretty much one car for every adult on the estate and there weren't many properties in single occupancy.

It's largely the same where I live now in a leafy suburban estate full of families. I have two cars, my neighbour has two cars, my other neighbour has three cars, the fellow opposite has two cars and a works van. You get the picture. And this is despite the fact that we have buses here which are, by any UK measure, dirt cheap.

I would be interested in the calculations used by developers and by planning authorities in these things. Because the feeling from my experience is that there are always a hell of a lot more cars in these estates than anyone ever seems to plan for.

That is the problem. Again, taking one of the proposed developments in St Albans (1100 homes north of the city), even one additional trip generated will just add to existing the 2km / 20 minute queue that exists for the peak hour (and only an hour) in the morning.
And this is where a lot of the opposition starts to bubble up. Some people will protest anything and everything, of course they will. But in most cases the existing residents know that new houses mean that existing services will simply get overloaded and the only way of really preventing this happening is to try and stop the development happening.

As we see all the time, developers will simply count the cash and walk away. Even where local authorities have obtained planning conditions and have the political intent to try and enforce them, the developers have deeper pockets and can (and do) prolong legal battles until the council runs out of money. I picked on Persimmon with my examples further up the thread because they're the poster boys for CEO greed, but all developers are the same.
 
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RT4038

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I would be interested in the calculations used by developers and by planning authorities in these things. Because the feeling from my experience is that there are always a hell of a lot more cars in these estates than anyone ever seems to plan for.
I expect the issue is that if you planned for the number of cars likely, then the amount of housing units that can be built (and sold) will be reduced. The Developer will then say that the development is uneconomic. (Councils have no real way of countering that, apart from blatant cases). The Developer likely owns the ground, so there is no immediate prospect of competition of development costs, and the Council have house building targets to meet. So it becomes a Mexican stand off which the Council are probably going to have to cave in.

As we see all the time, developers will simply count the cash and walk away. Even where local authorities have obtained planning conditions and have the political intent to try and enforce them, the developers have deeper pockets and can (and do) prolong legal battles until the council runs out of money. I picked on Persimmon with my examples further up the thread because they're the poster boys for CEO greed, but all developers are the same.
Sadly, all too frequently, Local Authorities (and Planning Inspectors) write and sign poor agreements that Developers can exploit.....
 

Bald Rick

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People who can walk to the station probably will do so, owing to the prohibitive cost of car parking at stations like St Albans City.
Or cycle. But no one will walk from this development which is 2 miles+ from the station. A development about half the size in north Harpenden has just been granted consent, that’s a mile from Harpenden station, many will walk that. That same development has 20% as retirement properties, 40% affordable housing and 40% ‘regular’ I’d be surprised if average car ownership there is much more than the average of 1.2.

Overall though for new developments nationwide I would say worst case is average 2 cars per dwelling, and that will be for housing in places with questionable public transport; I’d say the a average for all development will be the average cars / per home of 1.2.

My experience of St Albans was always that Saturday was the worst day for traffic jams, as everyone who worked in London during the week had a mooch round the shops at the weekend (Mrs Tyke and I included)

School day mornings are worst, then Sundays late morning, then Saturdays. Fridays in half term - nothing!


I would be interested in the calculations used by developers and by planning authorities in these things.

They take census data on journeys to work (by relevant ward) and extrapolate based on the housing mix. Where the traffic goes is subject to modelling based on existing highway models (which the highways authority eill have).
 

The Ham

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TL; DR - I work in the industry and the volume of peak hour traffic from the development is much much smaller than the number of cars own by the households of a development and traffic from a development fragments rather a lot as soon as there's a choice of direction (even if it's a fairly insignificant junction).

There are now, on average, 12 cars for every 10 households. However this only tells part of the story: 22% of households don’t have a car at all but 33% of households have more than one. Car ownership, and multi-car ownership, is as you’d expect focused on the higher socioeconomic groups.

New housing developments are also focused on these groups as they’re the ones who can afford to buy new homes. So yes, a new housing estate of 100 homes probably will add somewhere between 200 and 300 cars to the local roads. The 22% who can’t afford/don’t want a car aren’t the ones who are buying executive new build houses on the edge of town.

You are confusing number of cars with peak hour traffic, take for example my house, we own two cars, however my wife drives to work 3 days a week and will do so between 7am and 8am (where the peak hour is 8am and 9am) and whilst I take the kids to school in the peak hour, I do so by walking. Therefore whilst we own two cars we generate 0 trips in the morning peak.

Our neighbours one side own a car, however they are retired so rarely travel in the peak.

Some who work leave home before 7am and other do so after 9am.

Others WFH so may not leave at all during the working day.

You’ll have to show your working out on this one.

As @Bald Rick said, it's my experience from working in Transport Planning and Highway Design.

People in these estates are in the higher socioeconomic groups, i.e. at least two people in the household will be in full time work. So 100 houses will result in a minimum of 100 cars leaving the estate in the direction of the main city or employment hotspot, and probably closer to 200 given the way these households are generally multi-car households. Add in the kids driving to college…

Traffic isn't as clean for as you may think. Main cities and employment hotspots are a much smaller draw than you think. In part as often if they have a significant draw there's quite often public transport options.

Add to that, it can be the case that one of those two jobs in a household can be trying to fit in around school/childcare and so may not be a typical 9-5 job. With childcare costing £7 an hour per child (which is after they've paid tax, so means earning about £10 to cover the cost) in some locations, it's not uncommon for people with "9-5 jobs" having some flexibility to reduce the number of hours they need to pay for childcare (for example going in late, WFH, leaving early, or simply just not working 35+ hours a week).

Whilst there will be quite a few who do drive to college, given that at the start of September in their first year almost none will have passed their test and the cost of learning to drive (let alone the cost of car ownership) the numbers are still (compared to the size of the college population) relatively limited. Even then, due to way colleges work not all of them will be traveling in the peak hour.

The problem, of course, is that this hypothetical road will already have 1000 cars on it, so adding another 300 will tip it over the edge.

Even if the road had 1,000 vehicles in one direction and the development was large enough to add 300 vehicles (2 way) in the peak hour (which would be way more than 100 homes, closer to 450) generally it's not the road capacity which is the issue, rather it's the junctions.

Most junctions would typically only need fairly small changes to see them be able to cope with the volume of extra traffic. For example, changing from a simple t-junction to one with a hached right turn lane reduces congestion significantly.

Likewise, adding signals to a junction or a roundabout. Even making the diameter of the roundabout 2m larger can add quite a bit of extra capacity, when it doesn't appear to be overly larger.

However, unless there's almost nothing in one direction (like a road going to two farms) there will almost certainly be some form of split in traffic. Even 5% going the other way reduces the two way flow from 300 to 285 (and 5% would still be to a road which few would appear to wish to use, for example a country lane which doesn't go to anywhere of significance)

Also about 1/3 of traffic heading towards the houses (school traffic returning home, delivery vehicles, waste collection, shift workers, etc).

All told chances are to get to 300 vehicles on a road in one you'd need a development of over 700 homes (assuming that only 5% of traffic goes one way as there's nothing there other way, yet that road wouldn't be carrying 1,000 cars if it did).

Due to that paradox (a road to nowhere of significance carrying 1,000 cars), it's more likely that the development would be for 1,050 homes to have 300 cars in one direction along an already busy road. However, for most developments of that size they would typically be providing school facilities and/or local shops, that will then reduce the need for that traffic to leave the development.

It's also worth noting that once you're into the 1,000 homes or more territory it's almost certain that there'll be more than one road which the development connects to (which means the development would need to be larger still to reach that 300 vehicles in one direction on one road).

That is the problem. Again, taking one of the proposed developments in St Albans (1100 homes north of the city), even one additional trip generated will just add to existing the 2km / 20 minute queue that exists for the peak hour (and only an hour) in the morning.

I don't know the area, however it's not uncommon for such delays to be due to a few key junctions creating a bottleneck. As such, it's possible for the developer's transport planners to identify the constraints and then provide a viable solution to increase capacity.

Where that's not possible, other options come into play. For example 1,100 homes is likely enough to generate a decent number of bus users. If a new bus route is delivered then some existing car users may switch to using the bus. Similarly, if active travel (walking & cycling) improvements are made (and due to the size of the development Active Travel England will be consulted and make recommendations, which developers are generally willing to do as they can seriously block development if they are unhappy) them again some car users could switch to walking and cycling.

Even if the numbers switching to buses and cycling are small it's a number bigger than 0, and each car taken off the road by such a switch, is a car the development can add back and not increase the overall number of vehicles using a road (after the first 2 for each bus they are adding to the road).

That's before you consider the desire for people to go the "wrong way" to where you would expect them to go. (Again this is only me looking at a map) for example many would underestimate the draw of places like Harpendon or even Wheathampstead to split the direction of travel of traffic.

Overall, the impact may not be as large as it would at first appear (bearing in mind what I've said above about the internal traffic if there's schools and/or other facilities on site).

That's not to say that it's not going to cause there to be a need for improvements or even some small increase in congestion in the local area, it's just not going to be as big as issue as some will make out.

It's certainly not going to be adding 2,000+ cars to that queue in question. When you look at the Transportation Assessment for the site I would guess that they would be talking about less than 175 vehicles (and I wouldn't be surprised if it was closer to 100 than that) being on that road where that queue is in the morning peak.

200 vehicles in an hour would be an extra 12 seconds of green time for each 90 seconds of traffic signal cycle time (i.e. from one light going green through to the next time it goes green being 90 seconds). Obviously you can't squeeze more time into 90 seconds, but adding an extra traffic lane (even if that's a turning lane) will allow the length of time that arm needs to get the same amount of traffic through to be reduced.

Sometimes this can be by adding the capacity on a road which isn't the one in question. As by reducing a side road from needing 20 seconds of green time to needing 12 seconds (by adding a, say, left turn lane) you can then give 8 seconds to another arm (8 seconds would be enough for about 140 extra cars an hour).

Sometimes the issue is due to blocking back through a junction from another junction (which can even be off to the side of the main flow, for example if there's a school which creates congestion and stops cars from leaving the main road and queues far enough back to stop/restrict the ahead traffic). That's harder to fix, but again active travel improvements can help (as it makes walking/cycling more attractive, especially if it's to a secondary school).
 

Bald Rick

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I don't know the area, however it's not uncommon for such delays to be due to a few key junctions creating a bottleneck. As such, it's possible for the developer's transport planners to identify the constraints and then provide a viable solution to increase capacity.

Junctions is indeed the issue…. and there’s no easy answer.…

Sometimes the issue is due to blocking back through a junction from another junction (which can even be off to the side of the main flow, for example if there's a school which creates congestion and stops cars from leaving the main road and queues far enough back to stop/restrict the ahead traffic). That's harder to fix, but again active travel improvements can help (as it makes walking/cycling more attractive, especially if it's to a secondary school).

… as is blocking back.
 

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