No first class service what am I entitled to ?

[dave87016]

Just curious. On Sunday 11th November I travelled on the 1625pm from Glasgow Central - Preston

We held a 1st class off peak single and as only 1st class carriage at weekends is Coach K which i detest , however there was no first class service at all , am I entitled to the difference between standard premium fare and first class or the difference between standard class fare and the 1st class fare ?

Many thanks in advance for help it’s appreciated

 

[jfollows]

I think you'll find that because the service in first class is "complimentary" that if it's not available, then it's your bad luck.
You can only usually get a refund of the fare difference if there are no first class seats available, or if the first class section is formally "declassified". Unless the latter happened on your trip, I think you'll be out of luck. However it can do no harm if you ask for something - if you don't ask you definitely won't get anything.

 

[Watershed]

Just curious. On Sunday 11th November I travelled on the 1625pm from Glasgow Central - Preston

We held a 1st class off peak single and as only 1st class carriage at weekends is Coach K which i detest , however there was no first class service at all , am I entitled to the difference between standard premium fare and first class or the difference between standard class fare and the 1st class fare ?

Many thanks in advance for help it’s appreciated

There is nothing in the National Rail Conditions of Travel (NRCoT) which entitles you to claim a particular sum in this situation. However, you may be entitled to claim a price reduction (i.e. partial refund) under the Consumer Rights Act 2015 (CRA), and the NRCoT do envisage that such claims may be made.

It would be specious for Avanti to claim that the fact the catering is "complimentary" means there's no recourse if it's not provided; it's advertised on their website in order to entice people to choose First Class over Standard Premium, and thus perfectly capable of becoming a term of the contract under section 50 of the CRA.

I would get in touch with Avanti's customer services, explain the circumstances and ask them for a reasonable price reduction. As you say, at a minimum I'd expect a refund of the difference between the First Class ticket you bought and the equivalent Standard Premium ticket - the only difference between the two is the catering.

 

[Scott1]

It's a tricky one. There is no entitlement to a refund unless you had no access to the carriage either. My TOC takes a fairly pragmatic approach though. If the service is below the usual standard, e.g. No food service, then they often refund the difference between first and standard, or give a 'goodwill gesture' of an appropriate amount (say if only half your trip had no service). Where I've had it on train I sometimes will issue a 'free upgrade' coupon myself if I feel its appropriate. At the end of the day we want that person to use first class again, so I take a long term view, instead of just looking at the loss of that one fare on the day.

 

[island]

In this particular case I agree with Watershed that a refund from the first class fare down to the equivalent standard premium fare would be in order, but applying that logic, no refund is due as the standard premium fare is higher!

 

[Watershed]

In this particular case I agree with Watershed that a refund from the first class fare down to the equivalent standard premium fare would be in order, but applying that logic, no refund is due as the standard premium fare is higher!

Indeed; the First Off-Peak Single is actually very cheap for this flow, at £63.90 (the cheapest interavailable standard single is £44.40). However, there is still an entitlement to something, as the advertised service has not been provided and there is thus a breach of contract; the existence of Standard Premium is simply an easy method for calculating what this should be in most cases.

 

[dave87016]

Thanks for your help , just received a reply that I’m entitled to the difference - £3:25 ! The train manager clipped our tickets after oxenholme and said we could claim back difference I thought it would have been at least £10 difference but from the replies on here I was wrong thanks for your replies I appreciate it

 

[Watershed]

Thanks for your help , just received a reply that I’m entitled to the difference - £3:25 ! The train manager clipped our tickets after oxenholme and said we could claim back difference I thought it would have been at least £10 difference but from the replies on here I was wrong thanks for your replies I appreciate it

I wouldn't accept such a paltry offer.

 

[dave87016]

I wouldn't accept such a paltry offer.

And I haven’t the lady who replied from customer services Tara tried to palm it off and suggest that first class service was limited and that first class was declassified because train was busy -

in my original claim I explained that there was no first class service at all because there was no staff to provide it and that standard premium was quiet and standard wasn’t full at all as I noticed when I walked to the onboard shop

 

[AlterEgo]

And I haven’t the lady who replied from customer services Tara tried to palm it off and suggest that first class service was limited and that first class was declassified because train was busy -

in my original claim I explained that there was no first class service at all because there was no staff to provide it and that standard premium was quiet and standard wasn’t full at all as I noticed when I walked to the onboard shop

If first class was declassified you are undoubtedly entitled to the difference between first and standard, not Standard Premium as others have mentioned.

31. Travelling In Standard Class Accommodation with A First Class Ticket 31.1 If you have a first class Ticket and the train service you use is shown as offering first class accommodation at www.nationalrail.co.uk, but when you travel first class accommodation is not provided or is otherwise fully occupied, you may claim a refund. The minimum refund to which you will be entitled will be the difference between the price of the first class Ticket purchased and the cheapest valid standard class walk-up fare available on the service you used. You must contact the Train Company you travelled with to notify them of your claim within 28 days of the date that you travelled.

 

[island]

If first class was declassified you are undoubtedly entitled to the difference between first and standard, not Standard Premium as others have mentioned.

To be fair, the suggestion that first class was declassified came subsequent to my response.

 

[Graham H]

I had the same a few years back. No service on the ex Aberdeen to London service when I got on at Stonehaven. Lack of staff so just a cup of tea instead of a nice breakfast. Staff did of course get on at Edinburgh but caused a near riot when they initially told us (and others) that only passengers from Edinburgh could have food. Obviously the message had not been passed on by the Aberdeen staff ! Complaint came back with the same 'its complimentary' excuse.

 

[dave87016]

Right chaps I disputed the amount owed and was responded with im sorry to hear you are not happy with the amount of compensation offered but we have offered in line with our policy and as such that we have compensated you for this amount is because it is the difference between a First Class ticket and a Standard Class ticket therefore meaning that you have only paid for a ticket as if you had travelled Standard Class

a off peak single for the journey in question is £29:30 with railcard the off peak first class ticket is £42:15 judging by the customer service response surely the difference should be £12:85 each which for two of us should be £25:70 and not £6:50 or at I once again wrong ?

 

[skyhigh]

What ticket did you actually hold?

 

[dave87016]

What ticket did you actually hold?

1st class off peak single with railcard - £42:15 from Glasgow - Preston

 

[Watershed]

1st class off peak single with railcard - £42:15 from Glasgow - Preston

In that case, as First Class was declassified, you are correct in your calculations and you are owed £12.85 each. I think their miscalculation is from taking the Off-Peak Single - but the cheaper Off-Peak Day Single.would have been valid for your journey, so is the fare to be used for the purposes of the calculation.

 

[dave87016]

I have emailed a further correspondence and politely asked if they insist on £3:25 per ticket to clarify how they come to that decision using the ticket prices for clarity , I included the ticket prices in my correspondence to defend the sum to which I think I’m entitled to on principle

Maybe I’m being petty and should leave it as I have utmost respect for railway staff and know plenty who work for a different TOC

 

[Falcon1200]

in my original claim I explained that there was no first class service at all because there was no staff to provide it and that standard premium was quiet and standard wasn’t full at all as I noticed when I walked to the onboard shop

On the odd occasion when there have been no staff to provide catering service in First Class, it has been announced that passengers could obtain complimentary items from the shop on presenting their ticket - Presumably that was not the case here?

 

[dave87016]

On the odd occasion when there have been no staff to provide catering service in First Class, it has been announced that passengers could obtain complimentary items from the shop on presenting their ticket - Presumably that was not the case here?

My friend and I are profoundly deaf and cannot hear the announcements unfortunately. I went to the shop and purchased a sandwich and drink for both of us

 

[Falcon1200]

My friend and I are profoundly deaf and cannot hear the announcements unfortunately. I went to the shop and purchased a sandwich and drink for both of us

That's a pity, good luck with your refund claim!

 

[AlterEgo]

To be fair, the suggestion that first class was declassified came subsequent to my response.

Indeed, it was not a suggestion other posters were giving bad advice based on what was known.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I think you'll find that because the service in first class is "complimentary" that if it's not available, then it's your bad luck.
You can only usually get a refund of the fare difference if there are no first class seats available, or if the first class section is formally "declassified". Unless the latter happened on your trip, I think you'll be out of luck. However it can do no harm if you ask for something - if you don't ask you definitely won't get anything.

Hang on, but while this is usually true, this is Avanti West Coast, who offer tickets in identical - usually far less crowded (2 or 3 coaches vs a 1/2) carriages for a fraction of the price in Standard Premium. For First Class passengers, the complimentary offering is the only on board benefit to booking Standard Premium. Therefore, a First Class service has not been offered, a Standard Premium one has.

You could say the customer is entitled to, at very least, the difference between the First and Standard Premium fare, but I'd say the difference between the First and Standard fare is justified, as the customer did not choose to travel Standard Premium and it is not their fault that that's what they were given.

 

[Pemberton]

I have twice complained to Avanti this year following 1st Class train journeys where there was no 1st Class service. In each case what I received was a voucher code worth 50% valid on an Avanti Advance Fares 1st Class journey, valid for 12 months so I can book an Advance Single outbound and an Advance Single back.

 

[dave87016]

Got my final response from Avanti west coast customer relations and this is what they said

Please be advised that the prices that you are using to calculate the difference between a First Class ticket and a Standard Class ticket are our current sale prices. However, when we calculate the difference, we use a system that works out the costs of when you purchased your tickets. I have provided the attachments to show our costs and hope this further explains how I calculated your compensation. I have also provided the below link to the system these images have been taken from.

BR Fares - Look up fares for any train journey in Britain

Please be advised that we have double checked our workings out and there will be no further compensation being awarded. I appreciate that this will not be the response that you were hoping for, but I hope this helps you understand our position.

 

[Watershed]

Got my final response from Avanti west coast customer relations and this is what they said

Please be advised that the prices that you are using to calculate the difference between a First Class ticket and a Standard Class ticket are our current sale prices. However, when we calculate the difference, we use a system that works out the costs of when you purchased your tickets. I have provided the attachments to show our costs and hope this further explains how I calculated your compensation. I have also provided the below link to the system these images have been taken from.

BR Fares - Look up fares for any train journey in Britain

Please be advised that we have double checked our workings out and there will be no further compensation being awarded. I appreciate that this will not be the response that you were hoping for, but I hope this helps you understand our position.

Balderdash. The Off-Peak Day Single isn't a "sale price". It's a fare that's been available for over a decade.

You should definitely escalate this further. You might want to send them a screenshot such as the following:


...showing that the price of the Off-Peak Day Single, if bought a week before the 11th, was £44.40 at public rate. With a Railcard, that becomes £29.30.

Ask them to confirm whether you are in deadlock, and if so, to send you a deadlock letter so that you can take this up with the Ombudsman (for what little that's worth).

 

[dave87016]

Balderdash. The Off-Peak Day Single isn't a "sale price". It's a fare that's been available for over a decade.

You should definitely escalate this further. You might want to send them a screenshot such as the following:

View attachment 124278
...showing that the price of the Off-Peak Day Single, if bought a week before the 11th, was £44.40 at public rate. With a Railcard, that becomes £29.30.

Ask them to confirm whether you are in deadlock, and if so, to send you a deadlock letter so that you can take this up with the Ombudsman (for what little that's worth).

Please could you PM how to do the deadlock letter.

 

[gray1404]

It's for ACW to issue a deadlock letter. You should ask for this. But state your reasons why.

You could also consider a chargeback.

 

[Scott1]

Please could you PM how to do the deadlock letter.

Easy to do, just ask them to confirm this is there final position on the matter, and that you would like a deadlock letter. Often they will simply reply to confirm you can consider this there final response, and that's all you need to take the matter to the Rail Ombudsman.