No Horsham-Peterborough service Saturday 2nd March

[Nicholas Lewis]

Isn't that the same issue they had when they had the infamous timetable meltdown in 2018 ??

Certainly what route knowledge they had was a key issue. For weeks from July 2018 at East Croydon every Thameslink driver had to be interrogated when they arrived and there was a pool of conductor drivers on hand from Thameslink and GBRf to assist. This isn't on the same scale but does show GTR up in a bad light but being a stuck record no one will call them out over it to ensure they sort the underlying issues.

 

[bramling]

Most of the passengers at Royston will be transferring to and from the buses.
Once these are on the branch much of the traffic is to/from Cambridge.

My experience of the normal timetable is these services are often pretty empty north of Letchworth, except at weekday peak and school times. Clearly GTR feel the same hence why one of the hourly services has been cut back north thereof. Naturally it might be slightly different due to the engineering work, but if there are large numbers of people changing from and to the stopping service at Royston then that’s telling us the fast service should be running as 12 cars.

What does control do when there is a line blockage on the day? They just have to deal with it. If the train plan does not work and it is not control's job to deal with it, then whose job is it? The bigger problem is that GTR seems to have no clue about how many drivers it has or what routes they sign.

The point seems to be that control simply doesn’t have the resources to plan an optimised set of duty schedules. So you’re always going to get something heavily slimmed down. Agree that the real problem is GTR’s management of crews, which seems to be constantly lacking. To be fair their planning isn’t bad most of the time, this doesn’t seem to be the sticking point.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Ended up on a 4 car 377 ex Reigate into Victoria earlier from Clapham Junction.

The tube in pre 2020 peaks was less busy. OK, I know that it can't be more than 4 coaches, but I'd guess few others onboard did. An absolute disgrace on both sides of the river.

Honestly, if they can't extend it due to Reigate, then they either need to attach more carriages at Redhill like they used to or scrap the service and replace with an 8-377 from Redhill, with good connections to GWR. These booked 4 carriage formations are ludicrous.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Honestly, if they can't extend it due to Reigate, then they either need to attach more carriages at Redhill like they used to or scrap the service and replace with an 8-377 from Redhill, with good connections to GWR. These booked 4 carriage formations are ludicrous.

Needs an extra driver if they are going to do attachment/detachments so only happens in the rush hour. To be fair to GTR planners they have run 8 car Redhill-Vic services in the past and served Reigate by extending the Tonbridge service but resourcing and planning need to work together a bit closer I would suggest so planners get warning.

Separately rather than trying to build a 12car bay at Reigate they should just do a cheap platform extension for 8 car. Its only improved clearance to the level crossing that forces the use of four cars (8 car slams used to run up there) and only needs a 30-40m extension.

 

[JonathanH]

Honestly, if they can't extend it due to Reigate, then they either need to attach more carriages at Redhill like they used to or scrap the service and replace with an 8-377 from Redhill, with good connections to GWR. These booked 4 carriage formations are ludicrous.

For most of the time, four coach Reigate services work adequately. Clearly they are augmented in the peaks. Weekend mornings can be an issue.

 

[Bikeman78]

Separately rather than trying to build a 12car bay at Reigate they should just do a cheap platform extension for 8 car. Its only improved clearance to the level crossing that forces the use of four cars (8 car slams used to run up there) and only needs a 30-40m extension.

The slam doors used to run on to the level crossing before departure in order to clear the trailing cross over and the signal at the Redhill end of the down platform. I think the up platform is already eight cars long so a facing crossover to allow trains to run straight into the up platform would be a quicker solution. Make sure that it's at least 12 cars away from the level crossing to allow for future extension if desired.

Needs an extra driver if they are going to do attachment/detachments so only happens in the rush hour. To be fair to GTR planners they have run 8 car Redhill-Vic services in the past and served Reigate by extending the Tonbridge service but resourcing and planning need to work together a bit closer I would suggest so planners get warning.

What happened before May 2018 when Horsham to London Bridge was 377s? Divert to Victoria or attach to Reigate train at Redhill?

 

[JonathanH]

The slam doors used to run on to the level crossing before departure in order to clear the trailing cross over and the signal at the Redhill end of the down platform.

Presumably that was by exception rather than a regular occurence. I think it still happens if a unit fails at Reigate and needs to be rescued, although I have never been in the right place to see it.

 

[Bikeman78]

Presumably that was by exception rather than a regular occurence. I think it still happens if a unit fails at Reigate and needs to be rescued, although I have never been in the right place to see it.

Booked working in the 1980s and maybe even early 1990s. Regular enough for me to see it happen one day and make a point of riding on it the next. Some electrics used to shunt to the up side as well.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

The slam doors used to run on to the level crossing before departure in order to clear the trailing cross over and the signal at the Redhill end of the down platform. I think the up platform is already eight cars long so a facing crossover to allow trains to run straight into the up platform would be a quicker solution. Make sure that it's at least 12 cars away from the level crossing to allow for future extension if desired.

Keep the layout as it is avoids have to resignal which comes at great expense and a hefty time delay.

 

[Somewhere]

What does control do when there is a line blockage on the day? They just have to deal with it. If the train plan does not work and it is not control's job to deal with it, then whose job is it? The bigger problem is that GTR seems to have no clue about how many drivers it has or what routes they sign.

Yes, they deal with it. Like they dealt with it on Saturday by cancelling the service. In fact, by putting in the shuttle service, they obviously dealt with it quite well.
It weeks of work to replan a service, impossible to do with a day's notice or whatever. Its how you get dozens of traincrew sat in the crew room - all those with no work to do because the service has been pulled, without the resources and time to put it back together again

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Yes, they deal with it. Like they dealt with it on Saturday by cancelling the service. In fact, by putting in the shuttle service, they obviously dealt with it quite well.
It weeks of work to replan a service, impossible to do with a day's notice or whatever. Its how you get dozens of traincrew sat in the crew room - all those with no work to do because the service has been pulled, without the resources and time to put it back together again

This wasn't a planning or train crew IR issue and the matter should be directed at the very well paid managers that supposedly run GTR but DafT won't be interested nor will the local MP as he's off so as usual GTR get away with it again. At least AWC were taken to task over their lamentable failures.

 

[Minstral25]

This is just mind blowing. How can a railway company not know what routes its drivers sign? Or what engineering works are coming up?

If this attitude exists throughout GTR then it explains a lot!

There does seem to be a lack of training for staff on routes they ought to know, and to maintain that knowledge to save money. Whilst money remains the main guiding point this is not going to change.
Having said the GTR should have known that in advance, surely they select Drivers for shifts and must have records of drivers knowledge.

I think having a Drivers depot at Horsham causes no end of issues and that depot has been a problem since the start, when it was opened in 2018. They did not have enough Drivers there then and I don't think it has ever caught up.

The point seems to be that control simply doesn’t have the resources to plan an optimised set of duty schedules. So you’re always going to get something heavily slimmed down. Agree that the real problem is GTR’s management of crews, which seems to be constantly lacking. To be fair their planning isn’t bad most of the time, this doesn’t seem to be the sticking point.

Of course they don't - Control is run based on normal service with no capacity spare when issue come up at the best of times, so expecting a stretched team replanning a whole service on teh fly is not going to happen. Again lack of resources is the problem in this cost cutting environment.

Honestly, if they can't extend it due to Reigate, then they either need to attach more carriages at Redhill like they used to or scrap the service and replace with an 8-377 from Redhill, with good connections to GWR. These booked 4 carriage formations are ludicrous.

For most of the time, four coach Reigate services work adequately. Clearly they are augmented in the peaks. Weekend mornings can be an issue.

At Reigate 4 coaches are fine, its further up the line at Coulsdon and Purley when they are full. Having said that Reigate generates a lot of London bound traffic and thus justifies the direct service throughout the day. It would be difficult to replace effectively with a connecting service from GWR, without a sharp loss of overall custom. 2018 proposals included a shuttled from Reigate to Redhill which no-one wanted either.

The slam doors used to run on to the level crossing before departure in order to clear the trailing cross over and the signal at the Redhill end of the down platform. I think the up platform is already eight cars long so a facing crossover to allow trains to run straight into the up platform would be a quicker solution. Make sure that it's at least 12 cars away from the level crossing to allow for future extension if desired.

What happened before May 2018 when Horsham to London Bridge was 377s? Divert to Victoria or attach to Reigate train at Redhill?

The difference is that in the last 20 years traffic on the A217 has become extremely busy so keeping the Gates down for a long time creates traffic chaos in Reigate. Even now when GWR pass queues still build back half a mile or more through the town centre.

Before 2018, Redhill was served by Southern only (well mostly a couple of peak Thameslinks), so the 4 car Tonbridge or Reigate to London Bridge was supplemented by a 4 car Horsham to London Bridge. At Peak times services would reduce to 2tph with trains splitting into up to 3 parts at Redhill.

Victoria services were Arun Valley trains calling at Redhill off-peak and extras on the Victoria to Horsham/Reigate/Tonbridge axis (also splitting) during Peak.

This wasn't a planning or train crew IR issue and the matter should be directed at the very well paid managers that supposedly run GTR but DafT won't be interested nor will the local MP as he's off so as usual GTR get away with it again. At least AWC were taken to task over their lamentable failures.

DfT will not help, just want costs cut. Local MP is gone too, effectively banned from parliament and representing his constituents but at least his office still helps chase up. DfT do not reply though.

Until we have a change of Government there is no hope of improvements on any public service and of course when it changes there will be years and years of work just to get back to the Status Quo

 

[Bikeman78]

Keep the layout as it is avoids have to resignal which comes at great expense and a hefty time delay.

I get that, but I don't think there is enough room between the two signals at either end of the down platform to get eight cars in. You would have to take out the sidings and move the Redhill end signal. Possibly move the trailing crossover too.

 

[Somewhere]

I get that, but I don't think there is enough room between the two signals at either end of the down platform to get eight cars in. You would have to take out the sidings and move the Redhill end signal. Possibly move the trailing crossover too.

I think that's what the plan was before covid. But the plan's been shelved

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

I get that, but I don't think there is enough room between the two signals at either end of the down platform to get eight cars in. You would have to take out the sidings and move the Redhill end signal. Possibly move the trailing crossover too.

For sure both those connections would need relocating but plenty of clearance to move back 40m and not compromise RG23's overlap. Its not ideal outcome but changing the layout ends up with layout having to comply with latest group standards and then that will involve the LXing as well.

 

[Horizon22]

I'm well aware of that. Planning will have planned to the train crew and resources they thought were available at the time.

There is still a fundamental disconnect between Resourcing / Train Planning (and to a smaller extent Control) then to only "suddenly" realise they haven't got drivers with the right route knowledge. GTR should have their finger on the pulse here in at least one team (even if its the Driver team) to know what is feasible when planning out such engineering works. Seems to me like very "silo" working.

What does control do when there is a line blockage on the day? They just have to deal with it. If the train plan does not work and it is not control's job to deal with it, then whose job is it? The bigger problem is that GTR seems to have no clue about how many drivers it has or what routes they sign.

Planning should make a feasible STP (short term plan) for engineering works, it's sort of in the name...

Control would have to 'firefight' (for want of a better word) to get the best available service which would include an ad-hoc line blockage. The two scenarios are not comparable.

And yes how GTR don't know who signs what is a massive failing and echoes back - in a lesser sense - to the debacle of May 2018. It's very very simple to track via a competency management system. Some teams clearly aren't talking to each other.

 

[Minstral25]

I get that, but I don't think there is enough room between the two signals at either end of the down platform to get eight cars in. You would have to take out the sidings and move the Redhill end signal. Possibly move the trailing crossover too.

For sure both those connections would need relocating but plenty of clearance to move back 40m and not compromise RG23's overlap. Its not ideal outcome but changing the layout ends up with layout having to comply with latest group standards and then that will involve the LXing as well.

Removing the sidings will be no great shakes. The only thing I have seen in there in recent years was the broken down class 769 and I pass them a lot.

Cost is always the issue and raising signalling to current standards and adding more juice to the line is probably the major cost. Building a platform & moving the point back to allow clearance for an 8 car train is probably cheap in comparison.

 

[Sunset route]

Removing the sidings will be no great shakes. The only thing I have seen in there in recent years was the broken down class 769 and I pass them a lot.

Cost is always the issue and raising signalling to current standards and adding more juice to the line is probably the major cost. Building a platform & moving the point back to allow clearance for an 8 car train is probably cheap in comparison.

Off subject, but Reigate siding had to be used today when the Redhill lines were shut due to a suspected landslide.

 

[Triumph]

Peterbourgh Depot only have about 5 diagrams through to Horsham, which is why route knowledge is offten a problem.
They sign the following:

PBO-HRH via LBG/Redhill
Nene sdgs, Spital Sdgs
CBG- KGX
Hornsey EMUD
Three Bridge Depot (up & dn)
Bowes Park RRL
Welwyn GC CS
Letworth CS & A/D Line
Hitchin up yard
PBO Eastfield Sdgs
Hertford Loop

PBO also have booked workings to & from CBG but CBG drivers don't have any work to PBO.
CBG drivers do work through to BTN & Welwyn drivers also work 50% of the SEV-BFR services even though through trains only run through on M-F peak times, the drivers pass to/from BFR.

Horsham is only a small depot with about 20 diagrams, however they have about 14 through workings from HRH - PBO.
They only sign the following:

PBO-HRH via LBG/Redhill
Three Bridges Depot (up & dn)
Horsham Field Sdgs
Quarry Line
Hertford Loop
East Croydon to BFR via Streatham

The PBO-HRH service is also worked by lots other depots on both the North & South sides. (Welwyn/Three Bridges/Hitchin/Cambridge/Kings X/Brighton)

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Peterbourgh Depot only have about 5 diagrams through to Horsham, which is why route knowledge is offten a problem.
They sign the following:

PBO-HRH via LBG/Redhill
Nene sdgs, Spital Sdgs
CBG- KGX
Hornsey EMUD
Three Bridge Depot (up & dn)
Bowes Park RRL
Welwyn GC CS
Letworth CS & A/D Line
Hitchin up yard
PBO Eastfield Sdgs
Hertford Loop

PBO also have booked workings to & from CBG but CBG drivers don't have any work to PBO.
CBG drivers do work through to BTN & Welwyn drivers also work 50% of the SEV-BFR services even though through trains only run through on M-F peak times, the drivers pass to/from BFR.

Horsham is only a small depot with about 20 diagrams, however they have about 14 through workings from HRH - PBO.
They only sign the following:

PBO-HRH via LBG/Redhill
Three Bridges Depot (up & dn)
Horsham Field Sdgs
Quarry Line
Hertford Loop
East Croydon to BFR via Streatham

The PBO-HRH service is also worked by lots other depots on both the North & South sides. (Welwyn/Three Bridges/Hitchin/Cambridge/Kings X/Brighton)

My observations from my regular use of these trains is drivers have always changed at Finsbury Park which suggests to me most drivers don't have full route knowledge. On the Bedford and Cambridge workings you very rarely see a driver change.

 

[Triumph]

My observations from my regular use of these trains is drivers have always changed at Finsbury Park which suggests to me most drivers don't have full route knowledge. On the Bedford and Cambridge workings you very rarely see a driver change.

None of these change over at FPK as the PBO driver works through:
From PBO: 9J01/9J03/9J09/9J11/9J13/91J7/9J47/9J55
To PBO: 9J70/9J72/9J76
All SX.

Also some Bedford trains do change crews at Blackfriars, St Albans and Luton in both directions and most Cambridge trains change crews at various places (Stevenage/Finsbury Pk/Three Bridges/Blackfriars) as Brighton drivers don't go north of FPK but do go to Bedford.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

None of these change over at FPK as the PBO driver works through:
From PBO: 9J01/9J03/9J09/9J11/9J13/91J7/9J47/9J55
To PBO: 9J70/9J72/9J76
All SX.

Those a bit early or late in the day for me!!

Wasn't the 2018 plan though for drivers to work a complete service group as much as possible?

 

[Bikeman78]

The difference is that in the last 20 years traffic on the A217 has become extremely busy so keeping the Gates down for a long time creates traffic chaos in Reigate. Even now when GWR pass queues still build back half a mile or more through the town centre.

Before 2018, Redhill was served by Southern only (well mostly a couple of peak Thameslinks), so the 4 car Tonbridge or Reigate to London Bridge was supplemented by a 4 car Horsham to London Bridge. At Peak times services would reduce to 2tph with trains splitting into up to 3 parts at Redhill.

I wasn't suggesting going back to that method of working! It seemed odd 35 years ago. Goodness knows what the waiting drivers thought of it. To be fair, it was only on the crossing for a few seconds.

Going back to the current topic, what would the amended service have looked like if it were planned? Peterborough could go to Kings Cross but what about the Horsham end. Something needs to run from Horsham to Redhill. Perhaps run Bedford to Gatwick and extend to Horsham?

 

[bramling]

I wasn't suggesting going back to that method of working! It seemed odd 35 years ago. Goodness knows what the waiting drivers thought of it. To be fair, it was only on the crossing for a few seconds.

Going back to the current topic, what would the amended service have looked like if it were planned? Peterborough could go to Kings Cross but what about the Horsham end. Something needs to run from Horsham to Redhill. Perhaps run Bedford to Gatwick and extend to Horsham?

There comes a point when someone has to say enough is enough with Horsham to Peterborough. They have spent six years trying to get it to run reliably, and for whatever reason it still fails to do so. Cambridge to Brighton is no better, worse if anything, but at least there is the stopping service as a fallback.

The poor quality of the GN outers must be holding back the post-Covid recovery of numbers.

Like most things nowadays, no one in government gives a stuff, so nothing will change for the better. Though of course the begging bowl will come out later this year when they want our votes.

 

[Bikeman78]

Peterbourgh Depot only have about 5 diagrams through to Horsham, which is why route knowledge is offten a problem.
They sign the following:

PBO-HRH via LBG/Redhill
Nene sdgs, Spital Sdgs
CBG- KGX
Hornsey EMUD
Three Bridge Depot (up & dn)
Bowes Park RRL
Welwyn GC CS
Letworth CS & A/D Line
Hitchin up yard
PBO Eastfield Sdgs
Hertford Loop

PBO also have booked workings to & from CBG but CBG drivers don't have any work to PBO.
CBG drivers do work through to BTN & Welwyn drivers also work 50% of the SEV-BFR services even though through trains only run through on M-F peak times, the drivers pass to/from BFR.

Horsham is only a small depot with about 20 diagrams, however they have about 14 through workings from HRH - PBO.
They only sign the following:

PBO-HRH via LBG/Redhill
Three Bridges Depot (up & dn)
Horsham Field Sdgs
Quarry Line
Hertford Loop
East Croydon to BFR via Streatham

The PBO-HRH service is also worked by lots other depots on both the North & South sides. (Welwyn/Three Bridges/Hitchin/Cambridge/Kings X/Brighton)

Thank you for this. Very informative. Does Horsham sign both Norbury and Crystal Palace for the Streatham diversion?

 

[Somewhere]

I wasn't suggesting going back to that method of working! It seemed odd 35 years ago. Goodness knows what the waiting drivers thought of it. To be fair, it was only on the crossing for a few seconds.

Going back to the current topic, what would the amended service have looked like if it were planned? Peterborough could go to Kings Cross but what about the Horsham end. Something needs to run from Horsham to Redhill. Perhaps run Bedford to Gatwick and extend to Horsham?

They were running Horsham to Redhill, weren't they?
Plus diverting the Peterboroughs to Kings Cross would depend upon having the platform availability at Kings Cross

 

[Bikeman78]

There comes a point when someone has to say enough is enough with Horsham to Peterborough. They have spent six years trying to get it to run reliably, and for whatever reason it still fails to do so. Cambridge to Brighton is no better, worse if anything, but at least there is the stopping service as a fallback.

The poor quality of the GN outers must be holding back the post-Covid recovery of numbers.

Like most things nowadays, no one in government gives a stuff, so nothing will change for the better. Though of course the begging bowl will come out later this year when they want our votes.

I'm inclined to agree, but what is the solution?

They were running Horsham to Redhill, weren't they?
Plus diverting the Peterboroughs to Kings Cross would depend upon having the platform availability at Kings Cross

Which demonstrates the fragility of the route. Cutting off stations north of Hitchin from London every time there is a problem or block south of the river is not sensible. Running is a 12 car shuttle to Redhill and expecting people to squeeze into a four car is not practical. On a normal Saturday, there are 48 carriages per hour between Redhill and East Croydon. Last Saturday there were only eight per hour.

 

[whoosh]

On Saturdays all the Horsham duties go all the way through to Peterborough, except one that goes as far as Stevenage, and one as far as Finsbury Park.
Two thirds of Peterborough duties go through to Horsham on Saturdays.
These are both more than on weekdays.

The issue in the past has been that not enough drivers have known the whole route. This is not so much of an issue now - the issue in this case is that not enough know the diversion via Streatham and Herne Hill.

 

[Bikeman78]

On Saturdays all the Horsham duties go all the way through to Peterborough, except one that goes as far as Stevenage, and one as far as Finsbury Park.
Two thirds of Peterborough duties go through to Horsham on Saturdays.
These are both more than on weekdays.

The issue in the past has been that not enough drivers have known the whole route. This is not so much of an issue now - the issue in this case is that not enough know the diversion via Streatham and Herne Hill.

Which brings me back to my earlier question; what will happen next time there is similar block?

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Which brings me back to my earlier question; what will happen next time there is similar block?

They should have run to/from Bedford like they did on Sunday last week no issues with diversions. This was reinforced this morning with some signalling issue at Sydenham and they put the 9R's on diversion via the Hills no lack of route knowledge prevented any of them running.