No Horsham-Peterborough service Saturday 2nd March

[Steve Harris]

Plus diverting the Peterboroughs to Kings Cross would depend upon having the platform availability at Kings Cross

Indeed. BUT, you could possibly run to Alexander Palace and use the Hornsey flyover to turn the units to go back north. Not ideal i admit, as no tube close by, but pax could change onto a GN inner. Or you could possibly go as far as Finsbury Park and use the Canonbury Chord to turn the units (that's IF they are route cleared). At least both of the above gets Cambridgeshire pax closer to London than Stevenage and gives greater choice in onward travel. - Just an idea on my part, which of course won't happen as GTR (on past performance) just go for the easiest option.

 

[Peregrine 4903]

They should have run to/from Bedford like they did on Sunday last week no issues with diversions. This was reinforced this morning with some signalling issue at Sydenham and they put the 9R's on diversion via the Hills no lack of route knowledge prevented any of them running.

That is a lot more difficult than you are making it out to be. Firstly getting extra trains into Kings Cross, particularly 12 coach ones is hard enough as it is. Secondly, its not just a simple run Bedford to Horshams instead of Peterbrough to Horsham. The paths wouldn't line up, issues with train crew and so forth. They run from Bedford to Horsham on Sunday WTT which makes it significantly easier. Its not impossible but if GTR planning had been told and had no reason to expect a mass shortage of drivers to that scale, why would they then re-plan the entire service to be Bedford to Horsham vice Peterborough?

GTR don't just give up which seems to be the common attitude here.

 

[Minstral25]

I wasn't suggesting going back to that method of working! It seemed odd 35 years ago. Goodness knows what the waiting drivers thought of it. To be fair, it was only on the crossing for a few seconds.

Going back to the current topic, what would the amended service have looked like if it were planned? Peterborough could go to Kings Cross but what about the Horsham end. Something needs to run from Horsham to Redhill. Perhaps run Bedford to Gatwick and extend to Horsham?

They were running Horsham to Redhill, weren't they?
Plus diverting the Peterboroughs to Kings Cross would depend upon having the platform availability at Kings Cross

They did run Horsham to Redhill, the problem was nothing from Thameslink ran Redhill to East Croydon, as the Bedford to Three Bridges were already cancelled for the day due to the engineering works at London Bridge causing the diversions. That meant the route which normally has 4 12-car units running every hour, was reduced to a parallel Southern service of 4 coaches every half hour, which are often pretty full anyway with their own passengers. It was reported many passengers left behind at Merstham, Coulsdon South and Purley.

As a general rule whenever there is a problems between St Pancras and East Croydon, the Bedford to Three Bridges are immediately cancelled for the day. So leaving the route solely in the hand's of the Horsham services, whose own unreliability issues exasperate the situation.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

That is a lot more difficult than you are making it out to be. Firstly getting extra trains into Kings Cross, particularly 12 coach ones is hard enough as it is. Secondly, its not just a simple run Bedford to Horshams instead of Peterbrough to Horsham. The paths wouldn't line up, issues with train crew and so forth. They run from Bedford to Horsham on Sunday WTT which makes it significantly easier. Its not impossible but if GTR planning had been told and had no reason to expect a mass shortage of drivers to that scale, why would they then re-plan the entire service to be Bedford to Horsham vice Peterborough?

GTR don't just give up which seems to be the common attitude here.

Agree GTR just don't give up and somebody did the best they could given the circumstances they found themselves in last week to make amends for a GTR screw up somewhere. Be nice though if there was a bit of humility from GTR top management at least NR will endeavour to explain whats gong wrong and show some concern for passenger inconvenience when they have issues.

 

[Bikeman78]

That is a lot more difficult than you are making it out to be. Firstly getting extra trains into Kings Cross, particularly 12 coach ones is hard enough as it is. Secondly, its not just a simple run Bedford to Horshams instead of Peterbrough to Horsham. The paths wouldn't line up, issues with train crew and so forth. They run from Bedford to Horsham on Sunday WTT which makes it significantly easier. Its not impossible but if GTR planning had been told and had no reason to expect a mass shortage of drivers to that scale, why would they then re-plan the entire service to be Bedford to Horsham vice Peterborough?

GTR don't just give up which seems to be the common attitude here.

When Peterborough to Horsham was first conceived, did no one sit down and consider what would happen when the core is shut for engineering works? The trains from Peterborough need to go somewhere. Terminating at Stevenage and expecting 12 cars of passengers to get on to already busy trains from Cambridge is not a viable option. A similar problem exists on the Redhill line. A four car every 30 minutes is nowhere near enough so a solution needs to be found for future blocks.

 

[Somewhere]

When Peterborough to Horsham was first conceived, did no one sit down and consider what would happen when the core is shut for engineering works? The trains from Peterborough need to go somewhere. Terminating at Stevenage and expecting 12 cars of passengers to get on to already busy trains from Cambridge is not a viable option. A similar problem exists on the Redhill line. A four car every 30 minutes is nowhere near enough so a solution needs to be found for future blocks.

If planned far enough in advance. You could divert the Peterboroughs to Kings Cross by removing something else from Kings Cross. But it need to be planned. Which means more than a day's notice.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

When Peterborough to Horsham was first conceived, did no one sit down and consider what would happen when the core is shut for engineering works? The trains from Peterborough need to go somewhere. Terminating at Stevenage and expecting 12 cars of passengers to get on to already busy trains from Cambridge is not a viable option. A similar problem exists on the Redhill line. A four car every 30 minutes is nowhere near enough so a solution needs to be found for future blocks.

Well we are about the start the seventh year since this service started so this can't have been the first time this diversionary route has been required?

 

[bramling]

That is a lot more difficult than you are making it out to be. Firstly getting extra trains into Kings Cross, particularly 12 coach ones is hard enough as it is. Secondly, its not just a simple run Bedford to Horshams instead of Peterbrough to Horsham. The paths wouldn't line up, issues with train crew and so forth. They run from Bedford to Horsham on Sunday WTT which makes it significantly easier. Its not impossible but if GTR planning had been told and had no reason to expect a mass shortage of drivers to that scale, why would they then re-plan the entire service to be Bedford to Horsham vice Peterborough?

GTR don't just give up which seems to be the common attitude here.

When all this was being discussed on here pre 2018, in particular in relations to concerns about what would happen when things go wrong (and bearing in mind that the extra length of each service meant a considerably increased likelihood of problems compared to the old service), we were assured by people who claimed to be in the know that diverting services to King’s Cross would be a simple matter. Were we lied to or were they just misguided?

 

[Steve Harris]

When all this was being discussed on here pre 2018, in particular in relations to concerns about what would happen when things go wrong (and bearing in mind that the extra length of each service meant a considerably increased likelihood of problems compared to the old service), we were assured by people who claimed to be in the know that diverting services to King’s Cross would be a simple matter. Were we lied to or were they just misguided?

I think the lack of a reply to your question speaks volumes (and points to what the probable answer is).

 

[Somewhere]

When all this was being discussed on here pre 2018, in particular in relations to concerns about what would happen when things go wrong (and bearing in mind that the extra length of each service meant a considerably increased likelihood of problems compared to the old service), we were assured by people who claimed to be in the know that diverting services to King’s Cross would be a simple matter. Were we lied to or were they just misguided?

The 'people in the know' just think they're in the in know, and are well meaning, but just don't realise or understand how the railway works

 

[Minstral25]

When all this was being discussed on here pre 2018, in particular in relations to concerns about what would happen when things go wrong (and bearing in mind that the extra length of each service meant a considerably increased likelihood of problems compared to the old service), we were assured by people who claimed to be in the know that diverting services to King’s Cross would be a simple matter. Were we lied to or were they just misguided?

We asked the same question in 2018 of GTR from Redhill about trains being turned round at London Bridge or East Croydon in disruption, and got the same assurances. In reality, they never turn round at East Croydon (as there is no ability to do that), there are no further turn round points between East Croydon and the Core, so trains cannot be turned round unless Southern give up a platform at London Bridge.
So, now we find Horsham services turned back at Redhill or Three Bridges which is utterly useless.

The truth is probably that there was no forward planning.

 

[JonathanH]

In reality, they never turn round at East Croydon (as there is no ability to do that), there are no further turn round points between East Croydon and the Core, so trains cannot be turned round unless Southern give up a platform at London Bridge.

Southern services reverse in disruption in platform 2 at East Croydon, and Uckfield trains often reverse in platform 5 when the line into London Bridge is shut, but is it the case that Thameslink can't do this? (I appreciate that Southern trains reverse from the north in platform 5 all day so it is unlikely to be available.)

 

[Peregrine 4903]

Southern services reverse in disruption in platform 2 at East Croydon, and Uckfield trains often reverse in platform 5 when the line into London Bridge is shut, but is it the case that Thameslink can't do this? (I appreciate that Southern trains reverse from the north in platform 5 all day so it is unlikely to be available.)

There is nothing stopping Thameslink trains from theoretically doing it. It does happen in practice as well, but train crew arrangements make it very difficult to implement during disruption.

Plus blocking up Platform 2 can cause chaos at East Croydon and Platform 5 is used for terminating trains all day.

 

[Minstral25]

Southern services reverse in disruption in platform 2 at East Croydon, and Uckfield trains often reverse in platform 5 when the line into London Bridge is shut, but is it the case that Thameslink can't do this? (I appreciate that Southern trains reverse from the north in platform 5 all day so it is unlikely to be available.)

When has it happened at East Croydon for Thameslink? I cannot think of it happening and have been monitoring the route for years. theoretically yes but actually?

Similar with London Bridge - it happens with engineering but in disruption it is rare and mostly only happens when trains have gone past Redhill before the disruption happens.

 

[Somewhere]

When has it happened at East Croydon? I cannot think of it happening and have been monitoring the route for years. theoretically yes but actually?

Similar with London Bridge - it happens with engineering but in disruption it is rare and mostly only happens when trains have gone past Redhill before the disruption happens.

Trains get turned regularly at East Croydon. Platforms 2, 3, 4 & 5 are all reversible.
Platform 2 is usually used for turning trains coming from the south, and there is the turn back siding south of Norwood Junction as well (although that isn't used very often).
Trains have to be running pretty late (over 30 or 40 minutes late) to be turned at East Croydon, and it also has to work from a crewing perspective as well

 

[Minstral25]

Trains get turned regularly at East Croydon. Platforms 2, 3, 4 & 5 are all reversible.
Platform 2 is usually used for turning trains coming from the south, and there is the turn back siding south of Norwood Junction as well (although that isn't used very often).
Trains have to be running pretty late (over 30 or 40 minutes late) to be turned at East Croydon, and it also has to work from a crewing perspective as well

We are talking Thameslink here (PBO to HOR) not Southern which do regularly turn late Victoria services at East Croydon. The turnback siding at Norwood I was told is not available to Thameslink when suggested.

Edited post to make it clearer

 

[Somewhere]

We asked the same question in 2018 of GTR from Redhill about trains being turned round at London Bridge or East Croydon in disruption, and got the same assurances. In reality, they never turn round at East Croydon (as there is no ability to do that), there are no further turn round points between East Croydon and the Core, so trains cannot be turned round unless Southern give up a platform at London Bridge.
So, now we find Horsham services turned back at Redhill or Three Bridges which is utterly useless.

The truth is probably that there was no forward planning.

GTR just have a habit of telling people what they want to hear to make a problem go away. Then just pass the parcel of blame when they get caught out

We are talking Thameslink here (PBO to HOR) not Southern which do regularly turn late Victoria services at East Croydon. The turnback siding at Norwood I was told is not available to Thameslink when suggested.

Edited post to make it clearer

They do terminate them at East Croydon when the Core gets shut at short notice, but only to send them empty back south

 

[JonathanH]

They do terminate them at East Croydon when the Core gets shut at short notice, but only to send them empty back south

Yes, like this on 8 March.

Realtime Trains | 9R30 1156 Three Bridges to East Croydon | 08/03/2024

Real-time train running information for 9R30 1156 departure from Three Bridges to East Croydon on 08/03/2024. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Realtime Trains | 5R30 1252 East Croydon to 3bdgs Down Thameslink Sdgs | 08/03/2024

Real-time train running information for 5R30 1252 departure from East Croydon to 3bdgs Down Thameslink Sdgs on 08/03/2024. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[Sunset route]

Southern terminate 3 trains an hour in platform 5, platform 2 gets used for ad-hoc Southern mainline trains that are running too late for London Victoria. I don’t think I’ve signalled a Thameslink train into the Norwood Pertibation siding since covid massacred the service, when the Three Bridges Thameslink depot to East Grinstead ECS used to turn around in there in the morning.

 

[WizCastro197]

No PBO trains or Bedford yesterday, utter shambles. Southern we’re passing through Redhill but none were stopping, considering that the Luton trains were leaving at xx:03 and xx:33 could none of the usual Portsmouth originating trains have stopped? Also confused why no Thameslink stopped at Horley yesterday but Southern did ?

 

[JonathanH]

No PBO trains or Bedford yesterday, utter shambles. Southern we’re passing through Redhill but none were stopping, considering that the Luton trains were leaving at xx:03 and xx:33 could none of the usual Portsmouth originating trains have stopped?

The line from Luton to Bedford was closed for engineering work, and Peterborough trains don't run through the core on Sundays. What makes that a shambles?

The Arun Valley was shut south of Horsham, so a simplified service was in operation.

 

[WizCastro197]

The line from Luton to Bedford was closed for engineering work, and Peterborough trains don't run through the core on Sundays. What makes that a shambles?

The Arun Valley was shut south of Horsham, so a simplified service was in operation.

Sorry yes forgot about that, 2tph from Redhill this Sunday simply wasn’t enough, there are normally 4 I think, that was the shambles part. Not so much where the trains are going. They all came from Brighton as well which didn’t help matters but what can you do!

 

[JonathanH]

Sorry yes forgot about that, 2tph from Redhill even on a Sunday simply isn’t enough, that was the shambles part.

Was there crush loading from Redhill yesterday with only 2tph?

The Quarry and fast side to Purley was shut and only so many trains can run via Redhill, especially if stops at Redhill, Merstham, Coulsdon South and Purley all have to fit within the 'two-track' railway.

 

[Horizon22]

I wonder what the official NR contingency plan is for Peterborough - Horsham service group if the core is blocked? Every service group will have one, even if it's "cancelled".

 

[WizCastro197]

Was there crush loading from Redhill yesterday with only 2tph?

The Quarry and fast side to Purley was shut and only so many trains can run via Redhill.

Yes, I am aware what was happening yesterday and glad I had checked. But I don’t feel as if GTR has adequately planned the timetable out. Is 2tph Gatwick Express only going to Gatwick really needed? There were plenty of trains going to Gatwick that day and surely if one of those were cut it would at least allow an extra service coming from Reigate or via/stopping at Redhill line stations?

11:33 yesterday was limited standing room past Coulsdon, and only got worse at Croydon and Norwood Jcn. Usual selfish people who can’t read the room sitting on the aisle seat whilst blocking the window seat with their bag

 

[Peregrine 4903]

No PBO trains or Bedford yesterday, utter shambles. Southern we’re passing through Redhill but none were stopping, considering that the Luton trains were leaving at xx:03 and xx:33 could none of the usual Portsmouth originating trains have stopped? Also confused why no Thameslink stopped at Horley yesterday but Southern did ?

Quarry lines were blocked so everything was diverting via Redhill. Vic to Brighton trains were stopping at Horley as the timetable did not work if you added the stops to the Bedford Brighton trains. Peterborough trains don't run on Sundays.

Quarry Lines block meant there was no capacity for the Bedford to Three Bridges trains to run. And there was a MML block anyway, so Bedford trains were originally only going to London Bridge.

Portsmouth trains could not stop at Redhill due to capacity and the fact that the Portsmouth trains were actually the Littlehampton trains but were running through to Portsmouth Harbour as the Arun Valley was blocked.

Quite how the situation was a disgrace is baffling to me.

 

[MCR247]

Yes, I am aware what was happening yesterday and glad I had checked. But I don’t feel as if GTR has adequately planned the timetable out. Is 2tph Gatwick Express only going to Gatwick really needed? There were plenty of trains going to Gatwick that day and surely if one of those were cut it would at least allow an extra service coming from Reigate or via/stopping at Redhill line stations?

11:33 yesterday was limited standing room past Coulsdon, and only got worse at Croydon and Norwood Jcn. Usual selfish people who can’t read the room sitting on the aisle seat whilst blocking the window seat with their bag

To be fair to them, planning the timetable is done by a planning team who will have had to do their best within the constrains of the reduced capacity.

The reality is, Gatwick Express brings in money and therefore is a priority for the DfT and therefore Southern. With the way that pathing works, you’re going to need to remove more than one non-stop GW to fit a stopping train in.

At the end of the day, if everyone at Redhill line stations managed to get onboard, then it sounds like the planning team did a good job, even if that resulted in a less satisfactory journey for you on this occasion.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

I wonder what the official NR contingency plan is for Peterborough - Horsham service group if the core is blocked? Every service group will have one, even if it's "cancelled".

On a weekday it gets cancelled on the South side and maybe diverted into KX on the North side.

 

[JonathanH]

The diversion of trains via Tulse Hill is on again this weekend. Presumably there will be an update on Thameslink's ability to cover the service nearer the weekend.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

The diversion of trains via Tulse Hill is on again this weekend. Presumably there will be an update on Thameslink's ability to cover the service nearer the weekend.

Well its unlikely they have have trained them on the diversionary route so we can surmise the outcome will be the same.