No open off peak return possible?

[EMB]

We’re planning to go from Bletchley to Brighton on Saturday 3/8 using Network Railcard. We hope to be able to make the 23.25 back out again (to St. P and then a replacement bus from EUS) but there’s every possibility we might miss that due to crowds etc etc. The next options out from BTN entail a long wait in London, and as we could possibly crash at a pal’s in BTN and then resume travel sometime later on Sunday, an open return makes most sense to cover either eventuality.

However, I don’t seem to be able to select that in the forum ticket site, or on TrainPal (which does offer an “open return” but then defaults to a same day return with all the restrictions that entails.
I’ve managed to buy an open return on this route in the week after, so am a little confused as to why I can’t do the same for this Saturday start. Any advice or pointers gratefully received.

 

[ThameslinkUser]

Perhaps see if a ticket office can do it rather than a website

 

[skyhigh]

There is only an Open Return route "Ken Olympia". Sites aren't offering this route on Sunday - so due to this there is no available Open Return.

 

[Haywain]

There is only an Open Return route "Ken Olympia". Sites aren't offering this route on Sunday - so due to this there is no available Open Return.

There is also an Off Peak Return route +Any Permitted. Trainsplit will sell that ticket, but you have to make appropriate selections (turn off splits, out Sat, back Sun).

 

[skyhigh]

There is also an Off Peak Return route +Any Permitted.

Thank you, I missed that.

 

[EMB]

Thanks all - if I understand the above, it sounds like I have to decide on the return (same day or next day) before online booking.
For clarity, the Ken Olympia route - would that be the route via Clapham Junction and/or Watford Junction i.e. not going into London terminals?
I noticed terms for the Saturday same day off peak return that say the journey has to be completed by 4.29am on Sunday - so the long wait in London options, departing 00.10 et al. would not be valid on a same day return.
I‘ll see if a ticket office can assist…

 

[Haywain]

Thanks all - if I understand the above, it sounds like I have to decide on the return (same day or next day) before online booking.

It's easier, but some sites will offer it even for a Saturday return.

For clarity, the Ken Olympia route - would that be the route via Clapham Junction and/or Watford Junction i.e. not going into London terminals?

Correct.

I noticed terms for the Saturday same day off peak return that say the journey has to be completed by 4.29am on Sunday - so the long wait in London options, departing 00.10 et al. would not be valid on a same day return.

Also correct.

 

[Starmill]

Thanks all - if I understand the above, it sounds like I have to decide on the return (same day or next day) before online booking.

If you were to buy the Off Peak Return with the return journey the following day, you'd be absolutely fine to travel back the same day instead with that ticket, if that's what you choose to do.

 

[yorkie]

Thanks all - if I understand the above, it sounds like I have to decide on the return (same day or next day) before online booking.

No; if you select tomorrow, you aren't barred from returning today.

I‘ll see if a ticket office can assist…

Have you tried the new Trainsplit site? It has an open return option, and an opportunity to see the full range of through fares available before purchasing.

 

[Hadders]

A Network Railcard discounted Off Peak Return from Bletchley to Brighton costs £46.65

I'd buy a Super Off Peak Day Return from Bedford to Brighton. This costs £17.85.

Should you then decide to travel back on the Sunday then purchase a Brighton to Bedford Super Off Peak Day Single costing £17.80 with the railcard. This can be purchased on the Sunday before travel, if required.

Bedford to Brighton is valid via Bletchley and Euston and it is fine to start short and finish short with this ticket.

 

[Mainline421]

Thanks all - if I understand the above, it sounds like I have to decide on the return (same day or next day) before online booking.

Just buy it at the station, you don't need to select any trains that way and there's no advantage to paying in advance.

 

[sheff1]

Thanks all - if I understand the above, it sounds like I have to decide on the return (same day or next day) before online booking.

Sites such as TPE or GWR will sell you an Off Peak Return without the need to specify which day you will return.

 

[yorkie]

Here is how to do it on Trainsplit:


Make sure you're on the new site ( https://tickets-beta.railforums.co.uk/ ) and then choose "open return"; you can then select "Off Peak Return" from the available fares:



(The default link to the forum's site isn't giving me the option of the new sites however you can click this link to go directly there: https://tickets-beta.railforums.co.uk/ )

Note: the term "Open Return" can be ambiguous. Under BR and in the first decade and a bit of privatisation, it was a very specific ticket type; valid on any train and both portions valid within a month. Then Trainline came along and redefined "open return" as any ticket that is fully or even semi flexible, including Day returns. Some people use the term to refer to the original BR meaning; others use the term to refer to the meaning popularised by Trainline (and now generally applied to most online booking sites), while others use the term to include Off Peak products, but exclude Day products. There is no universally accepted meaning any more.

 

[MrJeeves]

The forum's site is still on the old version, but will be upgraded in due course.

Already is! https://tickets-beta.railforums.co.uk

 

[EMB]

Bedford to Brighton is valid via Bletchley and Euston and it is fine to start short and finish short with this ticket.

Just had a look at this on the trainsplit beta site, I find an open return Bedford to Brighton, total £70.70 for two of us - and the open return is saying any permitted route, as per attached..
So it’s the “permitted route” status that means we could breeze onto the train at BLY and waltz across town on the tube and float off down to Brighton from St Pancras or Victoria, both ways? I hadn’t realised that was possible; is it just Advance tickets that require one to start/end as per the ticket? How much heavy lifting is “permitted” doing in this case? Would we be able to use the Gatwick Express?

When I entered BLY to BTN open return, for an “any permitted route” it‘s coming up as £93 on my results, although the Ken Olympia only route is £60.10, which appears manageable for a Sunday return.
(We’re probably going to abandon the late night same day return effort, a sofa bed has been confirmed…)

 

[Mainline421]

I find an open return Bedford to Brighton, total £70.70 for two of us - and the open return is saying any permitted route, as per attached..
So it’s the “permitted route” status that means we could breeze onto the train at BLY and waltz across town on the tube and float off down to Brighton from St Pancras or Victoria, both ways? I hadn’t realised that was possible; is it just Advance tickets that require one to start/end as per the ticket? How much heavy lifting is “permitted” doing in this case? Would we be able to use the Gatwick Express?

Yes you can start/finish short, use any London terminal and use Gatwick Express. But if you select that as an e-ticket then it won't be accepted on the Tube, so make sure to get a paper ticket (price is the same of course) as that will include it both ways.

 

[Hadders]

I hadn't noticed that the Off Peak Return from Bedford to Brighton slightly undercuts the combination of tickets.

As it's got cross-London validity it shouldn't be fulfilled as an e-ticket, it should only be available as a paper ticket that needs to be collected from a ticket machine. The ticket can be used via the Underground to Victoria and then by any train to Brighton, including Gatwick Express branded trains (although do note there is nothing 'express' about them at all these days. You might also want to walk to St Pancras and take Thameslink from there.

 

[MrJeeves]

It's worth mentioning that TrainSplit will not offer the BDM-BTN ticket via BLY because it's attempting the NFM64 fares check from Bedford St Johns rather than Bedford, and that is associated with Bletchley RP and will fail the fares check there. It seems every other retailer I've tried does the fares check/appropriate RP check from Bedford though.

 

[EMB]

Thanks everyone - super useful, and I did a little side quest down the Routeing Point Calculator which was interesting, to the extent of my understanding.

 

[Mainline421]

As it's got cross-London validity it shouldn't be fulfilled as an e-ticket,

True, but yet they are selling it as one...

 

[Bletchleyite]

True, but yet they are selling it as one...

Probably because 99.9999% of them will be used on direct Thameslink services.

 

[MrJeeves]

True, but yet they are selling it as one...

If the data says it can be sold as one, it will be sold as one.

I know TrainSplit have an override to force paper if the itinerary includes a journey on the Tube, though, but other journey planners may not.

 

[Mainline421]

I know TrainSplit have an override to force paper if the itinerary includes a journey on the Tube, though, but other journey planners may not.

Good to know, LNER could really do with this rather than knowingly selling tickets for itineraries they won't be accepted for. But won't help OP in any case as they're not following the itinerary, really better to buy at the station in such cases but people seem to like paying online for some reason

 

[Wallsendmag]

If the data says it can be sold as one, it will be sold as one.

I know TrainSplit have an override to force paper if the itinerary includes a journey on the Tube, though, but other journey planners may not.

Surely you should just take the data from RCS ? How can you be accredited when ignoring RCS?

Good to know, LNER could really do with this rather than knowingly selling tickets for itineraries they won't be accepted for. But won't help OP in any case as they're not following the itinerary, really better to buy at the station in such cases but people seem to like paying online for some reason

No LNER shouldn't because there are perfectly valid flows with a cross London marker that don't involve crossing London. Newcastle to Alexander Palace for example.

 

[OscarH]

Surely you should just take the data from RCS ? How can you be accredited when ignoring RCS?

Because the data is garbage, no one will do anything about it, and I can almost guarantee the accreditation team would rather you removed a fulfilment method that would absolutely be rejected on the itinerary than sell it and deal with the aftermath. Removing a fulfilment method is quite different to adding them I would say :P

 

[Adam Williams]

How can you be accredited when ignoring RCS?

Are you familiar with this building? They have quite good coffee available to visitors.

 

[Wallsendmag]

Are you familiar with this building? They have quite good coffee available to visitors.

Never been unfortunately

 

[flythetube]

It’s Brighton Pride on the 3/4th August and Southern has announced a coloured queuing system at Brighton depending upon your route / destination so you should arrive early for your intended departure as you may not be able to board your intended train.

Preston Park and London Road (Brighton) stations will be closed.

https://www.southernrailway.com/service-updates/service-updates/brighton-pride

 

[EMB]

It's worth mentioning that TrainSplit will not offer the BDM-BTN ticket via BLY because it's attempting the NFM64 fares check from Bedford St Johns rather than Bedford, and that is associated with Bletchley RP and will fail the fares check there. It seems every other retailer I've tried does the fares check/appropriate RP check from Bedford though.

So, if I were to buy the BDM-BTN open return on Trainsplit without specifying “via BLY” in the filter/settings area, it gives me the “any permitted route” ticket option, at £70.70 for 2 with R/C. With “via BLY” in the settings it does indeed return zero results. This wouldn’t make the offered ticket incorrect or invalid would it?
Is this more pointing out a “system using a parameter” wrinkle that could return “no ticket available” in error?

Good to know, LNER could really do with this rather than knowingly selling tickets for itineraries they won't be accepted for. But won't help OP in any case as they're not following the itinerary, really better to buy at the station in such cases but people seem to like paying online for some reason

I’d definitely like to use the office - I should just ask BLY ticket office to sell me a BDM-BTN ticket as above? I’m tempted to do this, because the “any permitted” ticket BLY-BTN is £93, and although there’s the £60.10 BLY-BTN Ken Olympia option, it’s much more restrictive for getting home. So £70.70 makes sense for the increased return options on Sunday.
BLY office wouldn’t have the same problem as the Trainspilt site, in that they would force a “via BLY” and potentially not generate a result?

I want to save the cash, and I do not imply that you all would suggest something that would catch me out, but I’m still processing the news about short start and stop validity on this sort of ticket - new knowledge about which I am delighted! However, I’m travelling with someone who I have to reassure. May I assure my companion that this is all very business as usual, run of the mill ticket skills and will not require Jedi mind control en route? Thanks again!

 

[MrJeeves]

So, if I were to buy the BDM-BTN open return on Trainsplit without specifying “via BLY” in the filter/settings area, it gives me the “any permitted route” ticket option, at £70.70 for 2 with R/C. With “via BLY” in the settings it does indeed return zero results. This wouldn’t make the offered ticket incorrect or invalid would it?
Is this more pointing out a “system using a parameter” wrinkle that could return “no ticket available” in error?

Our journey planner is determining the route not to be valid, but I believe this is in error and I'm planning to raise it with our journey planning provider to hopefully be resolved.

BLY office wouldn’t have the same problem as the Trainspilt site, in that they would force a “via BLY” and potentially not generate a result?

I'd personally recommend buying your ticket from a website that does allow you to get the itinerary you want (e.g., Thameslink's website). This is basically anything other than TrainSplit. I don't see any reason why Bletchley ticket office wouldn't sell the ticket in question, but I also know that for anything that might seem strange it's often easier to ask a machine to do something rather than a person!

I want to save the cash, and I do not imply that you all would suggest something that would catch me out, but I’m still processing the news about short start and stop validity on this sort of ticket - new knowledge about which I am delighted! However, I’m travelling with someone who I have to reassure. May I assure my companion that this is all very business as usual, run of the mill ticket skills and will not require Jedi mind control en route? Thanks again!

This is effectively break of journey, where, on most flexible tickets, you can leave a train at any intermediate station enroute and continue your journey later. The only difference is that you are actually never completing the first and last parts of the journey! There's many cases like this where buying a ticket past your intended origin or destination (overdistance) can result in savings, and this is just one of them.

If you have any weird looks enroute, you may need to simply point out that you "travelled/travelling via Bletchley" but I wouldn't expect any issues travelling on these tickets. It's certainly an "eccentric" route in that it does take longer than it needs to (if you were travelling from Bedford), but it's not so strange that someone wouldn't see it as valid.