No tail lamp displayed - serious?

[AlterEgo]

Not making the location or TOC public here, but this just happened:

I just witnessed an EMU depart a station with no tail lamp - that is, no red light displayed on the rear of the train, and instead its white lights were lit at the rear. This train terminates at this station and has a short turnaround and it seems clear that a member of the train crew has forgotten to switch the lights before setting back off on the return trip.

The train self-dispatches at this location with no platform staff. The train carries both a guard and a driver.

I am sure I read somewhere that if witnessed, this should be reported straight away (I am not Rules qualified myself). I went to another platform and found another dispatcher from another TOC and reported it. He then contacted the signaller from the platform telephone post.

Questions out of curiousity:

Is this classed as a safety of the line incident? How serious is this?

Whose responsibility is it to ensure the train has the correct lamps displayed on a train with a guard on board - is it the guard? (I am thinking so as a tail lamp forms part of the protection of the train on the line)

What happens after the signaller is contacted? Is the train stopped out of course at the earliest opportunity? Do TOC Control contact the train crew?

 

[TheEdge]

Not serious at all.

The driver, guard and any dispatcher should really check that their train is showing tail lamps, obviously at different times.

Train will be stopped on signals and the signalman will tell them to change their lights.

 

[Bromley boy]

Is this classed as a safety of the line incident? How serious is this?

Whose responsibility is it to ensure the train has the correct lamps displayed on a train with a guard on board - is it the guard? (I am thinking so as a tail lamp forms part of the protection of the train on the line)

What happens after the signaller is contacted? Is the train stopped out of course at the earliest opportunity? Do TOC Control contact the train crew?

It’s definitely not a safety of the line incident and not “serious” but it is potentially inconvenient as it will result in the signaller instructing the driver to stop at the first opportunity, key off, walk back, change the lamps, walk back etc. On a Long DOO train this could take around 10 minutes.

This would indeed be an “out of course” stop and the train may be instructed to stop at a station it is not booked to call at (subject to platform length etc).

With multiple units the responsibility is with drivers to ensure reds are set when they leave a cab at a terminal station.

If the tail lamps had failed completely it would be necessary to either “box in” the offending cab or affix a portable tail lamp (blinking red, of the type seen in freight trains). I *believe* signallers have discretion to allow a train to continue to run in service with no tail lamps to a convenient location where a portable lamp can be fitted.

 

[DarloRich]

I have noticed several of these types of incidents recently and reported them all internally immediately. It might not be serious for the drivers or guards but for people out on the track it could be.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

I've also witnessed (and reported) tail lights illuminated mid-way along a multi-unit consist. These mistakes occur I guess, but it is always better to be safe and report it than assume it's okay to ignore.

 

[LowLevel]

It's not a huge issue though it needs resolving. The crew may get a ticking off for incurring delay minutes.

In the modern rulebook the driver is responsible for setting the tail lights on multiple units however the guard should also check (as should dispatchers where provided). Some modern trains will set the lights accordingly when the train moves off anyway but older ones won't. In practice what often happens with short turnarounds to save time is the guard will set the head lights, the driver the tail lights, both change ends and check and clear off - it saves the driver having to leave the cab to check the lights on units where mimic panels aren't provided inside (though again it's good practice to check anyway). Same applies with the blinds - again technically up to the driver but the guard will usually look after their end.

 

[Bromley boy]

Equally common for trains to leave with reds on the front - see that every few weeks - but obviously much easier to reset from the leading cab.

Usually remedied with a quick flash of the lights from a train passing in the opposite direction (although need careful with that as it might be mistaken for hazard lights), or someone on a platform tapping the top of their head with their hand "head-lamp".

 

[SPADTrap]

It’s definitely not a safety of the line incident and not “serious” but it is potentially inconvenient as it will result in the signaller instructing the driver to stop at the first opportunity, key off, walk back, change the lamps, walk back etc. On a Long DOO train this could take around 10 minutes.

This would indeed be an “out of course” stop and the train may be instructed to stop at a station it is not booked to call at (subject to platform length etc).

With multiple units the responsibility is with drivers to ensure reds are set when they leave a cab at a terminal station.

If the tail lamps had failed completely it would be necessary to either “box in” the offending cab or affix a portable tail lamp (blinking red, of the type seen in freight trains). I *believe* signallers have discretion to allow a train to continue to run in service with no tail lamps to a convenient location where a portable lamp can be fitted.

Key off? More like contact the guard on the move and have them switch them! Or even better lean across and press the 'remote tail lights' switch.

 

[edwin_m]

From a traditional viewpoint, having a tail lamp lit intermediately is arguably worse, because if the train was divided someone might assume it was complete. However the number of places where someone has to observe the tail lamp before confirming a train out of section is now quite small - but I'd guess on those lines any irregularities are far more likely to be pulled up. Lamp out completely does create a risk of collision if all the other protections against collision have failed.

I once alerted the driver of a 47 on a parcels train in Derby to the rear tail lamp of his loco being lit (many years ago - when did anyone last see a 47 on a parcels train?). He told me it must have been like that since London...

 

[Bromley boy]

Key off? More like contact the guard on the move and have them switch them! Or even better lean across and press the 'remote tail lights' switch.

Sadly we don't have anything as new fangled as a 'remote tail lights" switch.

And who (or what) is this mythical "guard" of which you speak?!

 

[Llanigraham]

It’s definitely not a safety of the line incident and not “serious” but it is potentially inconvenient as it will result in the signaller instructing the driver to stop at the first opportunity, key off, walk back, change the lamps, walk back etc. On a Long DOO train this could take around 10 minutes.

This would indeed be an “out of course” stop and the train may be instructed to stop at a station it is not booked to call at (subject to platform length etc).

With multiple units the responsibility is with drivers to ensure reds are set when they leave a cab at a terminal station.

If the tail lamps had failed completely it would be necessary to either “box in” the offending cab or affix a portable tail lamp (blinking red, of the type seen in freight trains). I *believe* signallers have discretion to allow a train to continue to run in service with no tail lamps to a convenient location where a portable lamp can be fitted.

From experience, I have seen standard Bardic lamps used, sometimes propped up in a rear window.
And on our line it resulted in a phone call down the Box line to report we had to look out for it.

 

[malc-c]

Wouldn't directional lights be automated to he direction of travel. Surely given modern technology it's simple enough to detect where the driver is seated and thus which direction the train is running and set the head / tail lights accordingly without the need for the driver to do this manually?

 

[Bromley boy]

Wouldn't directional lights be automated to he direction of travel. Surely given modern technology it's simple enough to detect where the driver is seated and thus which direction the train is running and set the head / tail lights accordingly without the need for the driver to do this manually?

Yes in principle. I believe lights have simply followed the drivers key on tube stock for many decades. Red by default, turning white when the cab is opened up. Two issues with this on the “big” railway are:

1. Vast swathes of the rolling stock in use is 20+ years old and reverse engineering this feature would cost money;

2. There are certain scenarios in the rulebook where lights don’t follow direction of travel (wrong direction movements of less than 400m being one, IIRC). Hence it is desirable that manual control is retained by the driver.

Could someone who signs very modern stock (700s) for example, confirm how their lights work?

 

[ComUtoR]

Could someone who signs very modern stock (700s) for example, confirm how their lights work?

Remove key, lights go red.

 

[Bromley boy]

Remove key, lights go red.

Ok cheers.

And is there a manual override for wrong direction moves etc?

 

[ComUtoR]

700's are pretty cool.

You can set the rear lights from the front. You can also (which is something I really like) set the rear to white for buffer stops.

 

[sw1ller]

Ok cheers.

And is there a manual override for wrong direction moves etc?

There’s no need to over ride the lights for wrong direction movements. All the rule book states is

“When making a wrong direction movement of less than 400 metres (440 yards), you need not change the normal head or marker lights or the tail lamp” [copied from a hard copy of the rule book so no link for quote, I typed that out myself]

And for assisting you need normal running lights for the direction you are travelling.

So you can simply have the lights change over to the direction of travel. When shunting I make many moves of less than 400 metres but I always change the lights over as force of habit. Every time I get out of a cab I switch to tail lamps, even if the train is due to carry on in the same direction. (Obviously I don’t do this when changing drivers half way through a run)

Basically, my point is, there’s no need to incorporate a manual override of any automatic lights. Simply, key in and that end shows head and marker lights.

One question though regards the 700’s. Does it know if it’s dark outside? Or do you need to select day and night running? The most modern train I use was built in 1999!

 

[waynemorrell]

I’ve seen the driver of a 158 change the lights to red before the train even stopped at the buffer stop, mind you this was at a very small Welsh station and the train was gone again inside two or three minutes.

Do trains that are stabled need to display some sort of light on the far end ?

I’m sure I’ve seen mu’s stabled in the past with tail lights on, however saw a HST recently totally shut down. No lights at all station end - couldn’t see the other end, though did notice the BIL were on. Zero traffic though it was over Christmas.

 

[sw1ller]

I’ve seen the driver of a 158 change the lights to red before the train even stopped at the buffer stop, mind you this was at a very small Welsh station and the train was gone again inside two or three minutes.

Do trains that are stabled need to display some sort of light on the far end ?

I’m sure I’ve seen mu’s stabled in the past with tail lights on, however saw a HST recently totally shut down. No lights at all station end - couldn’t see the other end, though did notice the BIL were on. Zero traffic though it was over Christmas.

You display the red light but after a certain amount of time has passed (very little in some cases) the light goes out automatically to save the battery. So you will see stabled trains with no lights at all. However, when the train is moving then a light must be displayed at both ends.

 

[Bromley boy]

Do trains that are stabled need to display some sort of light on the far end ?

Some sidings have a white light mounted onto the buffer stops which indicates white marker lights need to be shown at the far end of the train.

Units that are completely cut out, whether berthed in sidings or platforms, display no lights and are not required to.

 

[Bromley boy]

Basically, my point is, there’s no need to incorporate a manual override of any automatic lights. Simply, key in and that end shows head and marker lights.

I see what you’re saying but I guess the manual override is still needed in certain situations: switching from markers to running lights and vice versa; night running lights in day time if the day bulb has failed; marker lights when berthed in certain sidings etc.

The short direction wrong direction move is little used in practice but it is still a situation contemplated by the rule book. Therefore this needs to be accomodated when trains are specified.

Overall it’s probably just as easy to engineer a manual override in to cover all possible situations.

 

[37057]

Ok cheers.

And is there a manual override for wrong direction moves etc?

On older Desiros tail lights come on automatically when the master switch is in the 'Off' position. There is a switch to turn them off in this condition.

Markers and Headlights come on in any condition (even with tails on too).

Cat A warning on TMS when travelling above around 8mph without headlights on or if tails aren't illuminated.

 

[pompeyfan]

Cat A warning on TMS when travelling above around 8mph without headlights on or if tails aren't illuminated.

I would respectfully disagree with the above comment, on Desiro stock that I’ve seen, drivers have got well above 8mph with no lights on the front (putting the key in obviously turned the tails off) tails should be on automatically on the rear.

One thing that surprises me is that newer electrostar units can be driven with tails on the front (I’ve seen it with my eyes) you’d think opening up the desk would turn the tails off.

 

[fulmar]

I'm quite surprised by the casual attitude shown by some people regarding lights on trains. They are not there to make the train look pretty; they are there for specific operational reasons and hence very definitely are a safety critical issue.

Regarding shunting movements as mentioned above, most of these movements should carry the correct lights front and rear regardless of the distance the movement travels. The majority of shunting movements are not wrong direction movements because they are made on the authority of a signal, usually though not always, a shunt signal rather than a main aspect. Wrong direction movements are something completely different. They are movements for which a signal is not provided such as returning in the wrong direction after having overrun a platform or being wrong routed at a junction. A few shunting movements are wrong direction moves for example movements made through points operated by a groundframe where no signal is provided, but the majority are not.

As for having red lights on the front, that is one means of indicating an emergency (although that is increasingly being superseded by hazard lights), so personally if I see a train coming the other way with red lights on the front and there is no obvious reason for it, I treat it as an emergency until proven otherwise and take appropriate action.

To the OP, you took the correct action in reporting it. Thank you.

 

[Mintona]

I’ve only managed to set off with white lights on the rear once. In my defence, the train arrived (late) with another driver, and changed directions, so it wasn’t my responsibility to change them. I probably should still have checked but I wanted to get away RT. I always double check now.

Happily on that occasion I had a guard who changed them instantly after the signaller had called me, and thus prevented any further delay.

This incident was at my old TOC, where it was fairly common to see a train leave a London terminus with reds on the front. A quick tap on the head to the driver got them to change it. At my current TOC I’ve never seen a train incorrectly illuminated on the mainline.

 

[edwin_m]

The short direction wrong direction move is little used in practice but it is still a situation contemplated by the rule book. Therefore this needs to be accomodated when trains are specified.

The Rule Book quote in #17 was "You need not" [set the lamps when doing a short shunting move]. That means you can set the lamps if you want (and it's OK if they set themselves automatically) but it's not compulsory.

Perhaps the situation seen on models where the reds and whites swap with every reversal during shunting is actually going to be more accurate than it has been to date. Though a loco having tail lights on when hauling a train is always wrong.

 

[Bromley boy]

I'm quite surprised by the casual attitude shown by some people regarding lights on trains. They are not there to make the train look pretty; they are there for specific operational reasons and hence very definitely are a safety critical issue.

Nobody has shown a “casual attitude” and nobody has suggested lights aren’t a safety critical issue. That’s a rather patronising comment given contributors to this thread are staff, including several drivers. As such they will be fully aware that lights aren’t there to look pretty.

Signals and lights are both safety critical - spadding is a bigger deal than setting off with incorrect lights - there’s no harm in saying that.

The majority of shunting movements are not wrong direction movements because they are made on the authority of a signal, usually though not always, a shunt signal rather than a main aspect.

Agreed. A different kettle of fish to a wrong direction movement and, reading it again, the previous post was incorrect in this regard.

if I see a train coming the other way with red lights on the front and there is no obvious reason for it, I treat it as an emergency until proven otherwise and take appropriate action.

Yes although, as with many things on the railway, the application of common sense goes a long way. I’ve set off with reds and have had indications from a driver coming the other way. I’ve indicated likewise to other drivers many times.

To the OP, you took the correct action in reporting it. Thank you.

Agreed.

 

[Bromley boy]

That means you can set the lamps if you want (and it's OK if they set themselves automatically) but it's not compulsory.

Not compulsory but still “contemplated by the rule book”, as I said.

 

[ComUtoR]

I'm quite surprised by the casual attitude shown by some people regarding lights on trains. They are not there to make the train look pretty; they are there for specific operational reasons and hence very definitely are a safety critical issue.

Because it's a very very minor issue and one that is corrected easily and usually very quickly.

As for having red lights on the front, that is one means of indicating an emergency (although that is increasingly being superseded by hazard lights), so personally if I see a train coming the other way with red lights on the front and there is no obvious reason for it, I treat it as an emergency until proven otherwise and take appropriate action

Yes and no. I doubt that I would use my reds to indicate an emergency, we have moved on quite far since then. Hazards are more appropriate, where fitted of course) also we have 'big red' In an emergency, other actions are taken by the Driver that are far more appropriate than switching on the reds. They are tail lights and indicate that this is the rear of the train. If I was on the same line and approaching a set of trail lights, then holy crap I'm gonna hit the brakes for sure and have done. With track circuit block, what is the likely-hood of approaching a train from any direction without first passing a signal at danger and being informed that the unit is there (shunting excepted). If I saw reds up on any unit that wasn't on my line. My first thought isn't 'emergency' It is is quite common to see it and understand its an error etc. Personally, my first thought is that the unit has failed. Tails are there to inform me that I am approaching the rear of a unit or at least something that I need to stop at. Due to it being so commonplace to see reds up, using it as an emergency indication is likely to cause other Drivers to ignore it than stop in an emergency.

I think I hold the company record for the number of delay minutes lost due to whites up the back.

To the OP, you took the correct action in reporting it. Thank you.

Always.

 

[Filton Bank]

There’s no need to over ride the lights for wrong direction movements. All the rule book states is

“When making a wrong direction movement of less than 400 metres (440 yards), you need not change the normal head or marker lights or the tail lamp” [copied from a hard copy of the rule book so no link for quote, I typed that out myself]

And for assisting you need normal running lights for the direction you are travelling.

So you can simply have the lights change over to the direction of travel. When shunting I make many moves of less than 400 metres but I always change the lights over as force of habit. Every time I get out of a cab I switch to tail lamps, even if the train is due to carry on in the same direction. (Obviously I don’t do this when changing drivers half way through a run)

Basically, my point is, there’s no need to incorporate a manual override of any automatic lights. Simply, key in and that end shows head and marker lights.

One question though regards the 700’s. Does it know if it’s dark outside? Or do you need to select day and night running? The most modern train I use was built in 1999!

But TW1 sec 14.4 requires whites at both ends for a wrong direction movement towards a failed train:

When making a wrong-direction movement as an assisting train towards a failed train, you must make sure you display normal headlights at both ends of your train and have switched off the tail lamp.

So there is a need for the override.