Non-availability of open returns

[mp01]

Yesterday my son tried to buy an open return from Lawrence Hill to Pontypridd both via an app and from the train manager, but both said the ticket was unavailable so he will end up buying two singles. I understand that a day return was available but that wouldn't do him any good He also tried on the app buying from Bristol Temple Meads in case the problem was the particular station, but that didn't help. Turns out a friend also encountered the same problem a few days previously.

Any idea what's going on?

 

[JonathanH]

Any idea what's going on?

The distance is simply deemed too short for a period return to be offered at a cheaper price than the cost of two singles.

Very common across the network on short and middle distance journeys.

In this instance, buying an Anytime Return from Trowbridge to Pontypridd offers a small saving relative to buying two singles from Lawrence Hill, but the saving is very small. (£34 vs 2 x £17.90)

 

[Wallsendmag]

Shorter journeys traditionally haven’t had open returns

 

[mp01]

Thanks both. No doubt he'll look for other options in future. Is this a new thing on this route as I'm pretty sure he's booked flexible non-day returns in the last past?

 

[Wallsendmag]

Thanks both. No doubt he'll look for other options in future. Is this a new thing on this route as I'm pretty sure he's booked flexible non-day returns in the last past?

I don’t think anything would have changed

 

[mp01]

I don’t think anything would have changed

He's fairly definite that he's done it in the past and the fact that the train manager was surprised it wasn't available seems to suggest something might have changed with this particular one.

Good to know what the situation is though. Thanks again.

 

[Watershed]

I don’t think anything would have changed

No; the period returns were removed from this flow at the start of the latest fare setting round (NFM43 - beginning 4 September). There's no real explanation as to why this was done by GWR - Pontypridd isn't within the area where their Account Based Ticketing option is available.

 

[74A]

Could be anti fraud measure. Short journey with unmarried stations at both ends. Good chance your ticket won't get scanned?

 

[Starmill]

No; the period returns were removed from this flow at the start of the latest fare setting round (NFM43 - beginning 4 September). There's no real explanation as to why this was done by GWR - Pontypridd isn't within the area where their Account Based Ticketing option is available.

Did they cut the single price?

 

[JonathanH]

Could be anti fraud measure. Short journey with unmarried stations at both ends. Good chance your ticket won't get scanned?

Pontypridd has ticket gates, but the fare applies between two clusters involving various unbarriered stations.

 

[yorkie]

Yesterday my son tried to buy an open return from Lawrence Hill to Pontypridd both via an app and from the train manager, but both said the ticket was unavailable so he will end up buying two singles. I understand that a day return was available but that wouldn't do him any good He also tried on the app buying from Bristol Temple Meads in case the problem was the particular station, but that didn't help. Turns out a friend also encountered the same problem a few days previously.

Any idea what's going on?

You can save money with a Cheltenham to Pontypridd Off Peak Return (SVR); simply start/finish short at Lawrence Hill.

It's not a huge saving, but worth doing to 'beat the system'.

 

[Birmingham]

GWR Half price singles replacing Off-peak Returns

Not seen another thread on this so here goes, just seen that from the May fares change Off-peak Returns and Anytime Returns in the Bristol area, roughly bounded by Westbury/Chippenham/Weston-super-Mare/Ashchurch are being withdrawn, to be replaced by Off-peak and Anytime Day Singles at half the...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[alistairlees]

A Bristol to Taffs Well anytime return is £25.50. Two singles from taffs well to pontypridd are £3.30 each I think.

Why the open return for the longer distance flow has been removed, but the shorter distance ones haven’t, I don’t know.

 

[30907]

Could be anti fraud measure. Short journey with unmarried stations at both ends. Good chance your ticket won't get scanned?

What is the world coming to?

More seriously, is it a specific Valleys issue, I wonder?

 

[swt_passenger]

Could be anti fraud measure. Short journey with unmarried stations at both ends. Good chance your ticket won't get scanned?

For singles only then, obvs…

 

[WelshBluebird]

I've also been hit by this (family live in the Rhondda, I live in Bristol). My attempts at getting an explanation from GWR haven't got anywhere and I very much got the feeling of being fobbed off with excuses because they can't be bothered. Not sure if they are being incompetent or purposefully misleading and lying.

Initially they said it was TfW's issue (despite GWR being the fare setter). Then they tried blaming it on a tier of advance tickets being removed (despite this not being about advance tickets). And the last reply I got talked about removal of off peak fares when the period returns being discussed actually used to be anytime tickets. I've been wanting to follow up again but have been pretty busy, so planning on asking again in the new year.

It specifically seems to be for journeys between stations in the Bristol area and stations on the South Wales valley lines. As other people have suggested, period returns are still available as far as Taffs Well so it makes no sense to me why journeys further than what have had them removed.

 

[mp01]

This is very quirky and as just stated must be a valleys network thing. Open returns appear to be available to Newport and Cardiff, but not Severn Tunnel Junction, the latter presumably falling foul of the short distance rule.

 

[Wallsendmag]

This is very quirky and as just stated must be a valleys network thing. Open returns appear to be available to Newport and Cardiff, but not Severn Tunnel Junction, the latter presumably falling foul of the short distance rule.

Thinking about it wasn't there a similar thread just after the fares change?

 

[Benjwri]

There's no real explanation as to why this was done by GWR - Pontypridd isn't within the area where their Account Based Ticketing option is available.

The changes for PAYG were put into place 2 years ago I believe. I would say it could signal an extension, but highly doubt it considering that would require the DfT and Welsh government working together.

I would say it just brings the flow in line with GWRs wider policy, most similar length flows around the Thames valley have a similar lack of open returns.

 

[WelshBluebird]

I would say it just brings the flow in line with GWRs wider policy, most similar length flows around the Thames valley have a similar lack of open retreturns

That doesn't explain why similar shorter journeys along the same routes (such as bristol to taffs well) are unaffected though. If it was related to a policy change to remove shorter distance period returns I'd have expected the shorter journeys to actually be affected!

 

[lyndhurst25]

Shorter journeys traditionally haven’t had open returns

Of course there are exceptions. The availability of monthly “open” returns seems to be inconsistently applied across the network.

Look up fares for any train journey in Britain

Full details of all British rail Single, Return & Season tickets and Travelcards. Built-in Season Ticket Calculator.

www.brfares.com

 

[Starmill]

Of course there are exceptions. The availability of monthly “open” returns seems to be inconsistently applied across the network.

Look up fares for any train journey in Britain

Full details of all British rail Single, Return & Season tickets and Travelcards. Built-in Season Ticket Calculator.

www.brfares.com

Indeed. There's an Off Peak Return and an Anytime Short Return from Scarborough to Seamer, and has been for a very long time. Five minutes.

 

[Birmingham]

Only period returns are available between Cheltenham and Birmingham, which is a 40 minute journey.

 

[Starmill]

Only period returns are available between Cheltenham and Birmingham, which is a 40 minute journey.

Same for Stalybridge to Huddersfield at around 20 minutes. But day returns continue to be on offer for Newark to London and Preston to Edinburgh.

 

[robbeech]

This, as almost all decisions, will be a revenue stabilisation one. It may be disguised as something else.

It could be recovering from fare evasion losses as mention above, it could be maximising revenue from people making a return journey over more than one day, or it could be something levelling out the revenue (so not increasing but not losing).

@Watershed dovyou have access to the prices of the SVR before they removed them? How does that compare to 2 SDS now?

 

[WelshBluebird]

@Watershed dovyou have access to the prices of the SVR before they removed them? How does that compare to 2 SDS now?

Can't speak for the journey in the OP, but Bristol to Ton Pentre used to be about £25 (the last ticket I bought was in April but I had a railcard back then, it was £16.50 then so the undiscounted fare would have been about 25 quid). Two singles is now £35.80 (£17.90 each) so its over a 10 quid rise - that means it's over a 35% price increase!

 

[Alex365Dash]

@Watershed dovyou have access to the prices of the SVR before they removed them? How does that compare to 2 SDS now?

The SOR (Anytime Return, no SVR) at NFM42 (fare setting round 12th June - 3rd September) was £25, the same price as the SDR Anytime Day Return.
Two Off-Peak Day Singles cost £35.80, or £45.80 for two Anytime Day Singles. One of each is £40.80.

Depending on the time of travel, that’s a 43-63% increase in price.

 

[tspaul26]

The SOR (Anytime Return, no SVR) at NFM42 (fare setting round 12th June - 3rd September) was £25, the same price as the SDR Anytime Day Return.
Two Off-Peak Day Singles cost £35.80, or £45.80 for two Anytime Day Singles. One of each is £40.80.

Depending on the time of travel, that’s a 43-63% increase in price.

I think you mean that’s:



SIMPLE

 

[Alex365Dash]

You can save money with a Cheltenham to Pontypridd Off Peak Return (SVR); simply start/finish short at Lawrence Hill.

TfW have appeared to outsmart anyone trying to use that ticket in such a way by adding the usual 8A restriction prohibiting break of journey.

I’d echo the suggestion of splitting at Taffs Well.

 

[Class800]

TfW have appeared to outsmart anyone trying to use that ticket in such a way by adding the usual 8A restriction prohibiting break of journey.

I’d echo the suggestion of splitting at Taffs Well.

Changing trains isn't a break of journey so it's unenforceable at a place like Lawrence Hill