Non-UK resident - penalty fares?

[Cloud Strife]

So, hypothetical situation here. I travel using a Polish ID card / passport because it's cheaper and easier, although I'm also British. If I was stopped for fare evasion and penalty fared (or similar) - how can they enforce payment? Am I obliged to present them with ID? The only document I routinely carry is my ID card, which contains no details of my address. And even then - I'm a British citizen too.

I'm not suggesting I will evade fares, I'm just curious as to what they can actually do about enforcing payment in this situation.

 

[rpjs]

I asked a similar question here.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

So, hypothetical situation here. I travel using a Polish ID card / passport because it's cheaper and easier, although I'm also British. If I was stopped for fare evasion and penalty fared (or similar) - how can they enforce payment? Am I obliged to present them with ID? The only document I routinely carry is my ID card, which contains no details of my address. And even then - I'm a British citizen too.

I'm not suggesting I will evade fares, I'm just curious as to what they can actually do about enforcing payment in this situation.

There is no obligation to present ID here, and it is not a legal requirement to carry ID here. There is a requirement to provide your name and address to an authorised member of railway staff under certain circumstances (when they have reason to suspect you've broken one of the Railway Byelaws, for example). It is an offence to fail to provide these, or to provide false details.

They may try to verify these details, and may ask for further ID or personal details if the details cannot be verified. There is no obligation to provide this, and there is no right to apprehend someone because they refuse to provide ID.

 

[Haywain]

There is no obligation to present ID here, and it is not a legal requirement to carry ID here. There is a requirement to provide your name and address to an authorised member of railway staff under certain circumstances (when they have reason to suspect you've broken one of the Railway Byelaws, for example). It is an offence to fail to provide these, or to provide false details.

They may try to verify these details, and may ask for further ID or personal details if the details cannot be verified. There is no obligation to provide this, and there is no right to apprehend someone because they refuse to provide ID.

Although if the name and address details cannot be verified the police could be called.

 

[Cloud Strife]

They may try to verify these details, and may ask for further ID or personal details if the details cannot be verified. There is no obligation to provide this, and there is no right to apprehend someone because they refuse to provide ID.

So, let's give the hypothetical situation that I've committed some accidental breach of the railway laws, for instance, I got the 10:32 train instead of the 11:32 train because I didn't put my watch back. I willingly offer my name and address to the RPI and admit to what I've done, but my name is clearly British and I give a foreign address. What then? I don't provide them with ID because there's no reason to carry it, and I don't want to pay on the spot - yet I'm cooperating and fully accepting that I should be punished.

Would the police really attend in this situation?

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

So, let's give the hypothetical situation that I've committed some accidental breach of the railway laws, for instance, I got the 10:32 train instead of the 11:32 train because I didn't put my watch back. I willingly offer my name and address to the RPI and admit to what I've done, but my name is clearly British and I give a foreign address. What then? I don't provide them with ID because there's no reason to carry it, and I don't want to pay on the spot - yet I'm cooperating and fully accepting that I should be punished.

Would the police really attend in this situation?

It's probably down to how stretched they are in the local area, and whether or not they consider it something which warrants their presence. Friday evening - probably very little chance given the number of drunk and unruly passengers to deal with. Tuesday lunch - possibly a higher chance.

 

[Cloud Strife]

So to follow up from this: if I'm in a hurry, do I have to stand around, or can I give them a name/address and simply leave? I've read that you're obliged to give them a name and address, but nothing else.

 

[island]

You are required to give a name and address. You are not required to give additional information, stand around whilst they verify the details, or the like; however, non-cooperation can lead to a fail on the attitude test and may lead to a worse outcome down the line.

 

[RPI]

Although if the name and address details cannot be verified the police could be called.

Not necessarily, only if you can disprove the name and address that's been given

 

[Haywain]

Not necessarily, only if you can disprove the name and address that's been given

Good luck.

 

[6Gman]

You've given your name and address (which happens to be abroad).

They will send correspondence to that address.

If you fail to engage they have two options:
a) too hard to pursue; drop it;
b) pursue it.

Pursuing it could have consequences for the offender should they wish to return to the UK.

 

[Cloud Strife]

Not necessarily, only if you can disprove the name and address that's been given

How on earth would they be able to disprove an address? I'm thinking about countries that use Cyrillic for example - a quick look shows one Bulgarian address as "Tsarigradsko shose" - which sounds incredibly made up if you don't speak a Slavic language. Of course, they could check the internet to see if the address exists, but it would be trivial for me to give an address such as "ul. Adama Mickiewicza" which exists in most Polish towns and cities.

Pursuing it could have consequences for the offender should they wish to return to the UK.

True, but what happens if I don't actually receive anything from them? Is it my obligation to chase them up?

 

[6Gman]

True, but what happens if I don't actually receive anything from them? Is it my obligation to chase them up?

If you give them an address and they write to that address then why wouldn't you receive any correspondence?

 

[matt_world2004]

Deleted wrong thread

 

[tsr]

Name and address details are very useful, and positive ID documentation is even better, but behaviours shown whilst the details are given (or refused) often gives a good insight into the attitude of the person. Once someone gets a hunch, you would be surprised how quickly camera footage is commandeered, and it's remarkable how good CCTV can be at tracking down the supposedly "untraceable". Not to mention eyewitness evidence, or other traces.

(You only have to notice the regularity of photos accompanying various news articles about major criminal events to realise how quickly and how often onboard camera footage is "pulled" to be analysed. An appeal to identify the suspect may then be made to officers across a very wide area. So long as you hold no other photo ID documents and have never committed any crimes before, you might just get away with it...)

Therefore there's often no need to call police and no need to hold up the train. If somebody is suspected of an offence but hasn't caused a direct hazard to you or anyone else, waiting for BTP or even local police can give them enough time to think up some way of wriggling out of a hole. Far better to let them think they've got away with whatever they've done and tricked the ticket man...

 

[Cloud Strife]

If you give them an address and they write to that address then why wouldn't you receive any correspondence?

Our national postal system is... let's say I've been waiting for three weeks now for a delivery, which has been sent four times by registered post. Not a single one has arrived. Deliveries are made once a week if I'm lucky. Mail from abroad is even worse.

 

[Busaholic]

Living in a seaside town, we have foreign visitors arriving in their cars. I have noticed that no foreign registered car ever seems to get a parking ticket in this area, whereas the one time I got a French parking ticket on my UK registered car it was followed through by a demand to my home address, obviously provided by DVLA to the Saint Malo council, so I had to pay!

 

[rpjs]

Living in a seaside town, we have foreign visitors arriving in their cars. I have noticed that no foreign registered car ever seems to get a parking ticket in this area, whereas the one time I got a French parking ticket on my UK registered car it was followed through by a demand to my home address, obviously provided by DVLA to the Saint Malo council, so I had to pay!

My brother has been stopped for speeding in the UK on several occasions, and on producing his California driver's license, has been let off with a warning, one of which started "You do know there's not much we can do about you, don't you sir?"

 

[Flying Snail]

So to follow up from this: if I'm in a hurry, do I have to stand around, or can I give them a name/address and simply leave? I've read that you're obliged to give them a name and address, but nothing else.

I may be getting the wrong end of the stick but it appears your idea is to give a Polish address even though you reside in the UK.

How on earth would they be able to disprove an address? I'm thinking about countries that use Cyrillic for example - a quick look shows one Bulgarian address as "Tsarigradsko shose" - which sounds incredibly made up if you don't speak a Slavic language. Of course, they could check the internet to see if the address exists, but it would be trivial for me to give an address such as "ul. Adama Mickiewicza" which exists in most Polish towns and cities.

You are required to give your correct address not just any address. Staff aren't stupid, do you really think you are the first person to try on the "no speaky English, no live here." line of crap. Fact is an Eastern European presenting without any obvious signs of being a tourist is highly unlikely to be anything other than a UK resident.

The debate over exactly what staff can do to deal with this may continue, in my opinion this thread seems largely to be a veiled "how to get away with fare evading" discussion.

 

[matt_world2004]

I may be getting the wrong end of the stick but it appears your idea is to give a Polish address even though you reside in the UK.



You are required to give your correct address not just any address. Staff aren't stupid, do you really think you are the first person to try on the "no speaky English, no live here." line of crap. Fact is an Eastern European presenting without any obvious signs of being a tourist is highly unlikely to be anything other than a UK resident.

The debate over exactly what staff can do to deal with this may continue, in my opinion this thread seems largely to be a veiled "how to get away with fare evading" discussion.

I was interpreting the poster as speaking in hypothetical terms or what happens when a polish citizen gives these addresses how do they verify it.

 

[farleigh]

It was a good question but it was hypothetical.
What happens if you are in - say - Poland and give a British address?

 

[reb0118]

What happens if you are in - say - Poland and give a British address?

I'm not sure about giving a British address in Poland but I witnessed someone giving a Belarusian one a good few years ago. The gentleman (very loose term) was removed from the train at Białystok and promptly battered by chaps with rifles. TBF there was a bit more than fare evasion going on.

 

[farleigh]

I'm not sure about giving a British address in Poland but I witnessed someone giving a Belarusian one a good few years ago. The gentleman (very loose term) was removed from the train at Białystok and promptly battered by chaps with rifles. TBF there was a bit more than fare evasion going on.

Don't give SouthEastern ideas!

 

[paddington]

It was a good question but it was hypothetical.
What happens if you are in - say - Poland and give a British address?

Won't you be asked for some ID in most of continental Europe? No making up an address and it's pay on the spot in many countries too

 

[Wanderwaal]

It was a good question but it was hypothetical.
What happens if you are in - say - Poland and give a British address?

On my very first time of using a train in Poland, I confused types of tickets and got to TLK train instead of Regio. Lady who was doing ticket check was extremely unhappy with that fact and my basic Polish wasn't helping much with explanation, so she wasn't asking anything apart from telling me to just get off the train at next station and get the right train instead. There's was no even a question to buy a correct ticket, since she didnt seem to had any facility to sell it. But eventually, during our broken converstation, she calmed down and just waved it off and let me stay until the end.

I guess that easiest option for conductors abroad would be eventually ask you to get off the train instead of asking address and writing some kind of local version of penality fare/TIR.

 

[island]

Won't you be asked for some ID in most of continental Europe? No making up an address and it's pay on the spot in many countries too

You will, but passports don’t have addresses on.

In places like Czechia they don’t care about addresses but if you have an invalid ticket and hand over any ID you just won’t get it back until you’ve paid the penalty fare.

 

[baz962]

My brother has been stopped for speeding in the UK on several occasions, and on producing his California driver's license, has been let off with a warning, one of which started "You do know there's not much we can do about you, don't you sir?"

Wouldn't take that as gospel . I worked at Luton airport until recently , and while I was patrolling I came across the police having stern word's with a foreign national , whom had lost his British licence and so started driving on his Polish one . Police could not actually do him for much , had his car towed and he was off walking with his passenger he just picked up from the terminal tho. Saw a programme on the t.v a few month's ago and they were taking fines on the spot too, on the hard shoulder , from non uk peeps.

 

[Puffing Devil]

Foreign Nationals who end up in court in the UK on traffic offences, or who acquire fixed penalty points, are tracked by the DVLA who set-up a "shadow" UK licence for them and they can be disqualified in the same way as UK Nationals.

The devil is in the detail, as always: There's little point in tracking a US citizen her on vacation as there will be virtually zero chance of enforcement. However, a Polish worker in the UK will have a fixed address and can be dealt with.

 

[baz962]

Well I cannot say about that detail wise as I am not au fait with the detail's , but the one I saw dealt with was disqualified on his uk licence and was driving on his foreign one. They did not do anything other than just tow the car. It was a bmw , more expensive than point's , losing your car.

 

[Puffing Devil]

Wouldn't take that as gospel . I worked at Luton airport until recently , and while I was patrolling I came across the police having stern word's with a foreign national , whom had lost his British licence and so started driving on his Polish one . Police could not actually do him for much , had his car towed and he was off walking with his passenger he just picked up from the terminal tho. Saw a programme on the t.v a few month's ago and they were taking fines on the spot too, on the hard shoulder , from non uk peeps.

Do you mean lost, as in misplaced, or lost as in disqualified (banned)? If it's a disqualified driver the police should have that information on the PNC and he should have been arrested.