North Downs Full Line Closure 10th Feb to 18th Feb

[Minstral25]

There is a week long closure of the North Downs full line from Reading to Gatwick. This is because there are track and signalling renewals at Wokingham.

However as far as I can see (happy to be informed if wrong) there is no major work between Guildford, Dorking, Reigate, Redhill and Gatwick that necessitates full line closure with replacement buses. Why has GWR given up serving their local passengers between Guildford and Redhill except by very slow replacement buses (they are hourly and take 1 hour 18 mins compared to normal 32 mins train every half hour). This is causing incredible problems for local passengers who are struggling to get to work or leisure activities during the closure.

It seems very poor to me, unless there is a good reason such as track renewals going on, but in first two days there have been no engineering processions or trains between Guildford and Redhill.

 

[Freightmaster]

Ongoing Discussion about this issue here:

No times showing for replacement buses on North Downs Line 03/02

Presumably because GWR are unable to fuel units on the east side of the block. They would probably only last two days or so, even if they started with full tanks from Reading. ISTR that GWR used to get Southern to fuel the units up (at Selhurst?) during blockades in the past. But with Southern...

www.railforums.co.uk

MARK

 

[Deepgreen]

There is a week long closure of the North Downs full line from Reading to Gatwick. This is because there are track and signalling renewals at Wokingham.

However as far as I can see (happy to be informed if wrong) there is no major work between Guildford, Dorking, Reigate, Redhill and Gatwick that necessitates full line closure with replacement buses. Why has GWR given up serving their local passengers between Guildford and Redhill except by very slow replacement buses (they are hourly and take 1 hour 18 mins compared to normal 32 mins train every half hour). This is causing incredible problems for local passengers who are struggling to get to work or leisure activities during the closure.

It seems very poor to me, unless there is a good reason such as track renewals going on, but in first two days there have been no engineering processions or trains between Guildford and Redhill.

Absolutely agree - it is terrible. The railway just cannot function as a reliable means of transport any more, half term or not, and that is a national scandal. There was a week-long closure a while back for various works, mainly the Shalford bridge, so where has the co-ordination of works been here?! It's just far too easy to close lines at will on the excuse of 'unavoidable works', but these should have been planned and combined to maximise the previous week-long possession's value. There aren't anywhere enough replacement buses available anyway so it is going to be a very poor service.

Ongoing Discussion about this issue here:

No times showing for replacement buses on North Downs Line 03/02

Presumably because GWR are unable to fuel units on the east side of the block. They would probably only last two days or so, even if they started with full tanks from Reading. ISTR that GWR used to get Southern to fuel the units up (at Selhurst?) during blockades in the past. But with Southern...

www.railforums.co.uk

MARK

Is it, though? As far as I can determine, GWR is not affected by any industrial action this coming week, including overtime bans, which was the issue last time as getting crews from Reading (crew depot) to Blackwater (trains) was regarded as overtime, so the issue seems to be different. Not being able, or willing, to operate trains between Gatwick and Guildford (or even North Camp/Blackwater) is grim.

 

[JonathanH]

The railway just cannot function as a reliable means of transport any more, half term or not, and that is a national scandal.

It is at best a local scandal, but irrelevant at a national level. I'd imagine that the number of people truly inconvenienced can be measured in the low hundreds. Yes, awkward for them, but equally not a national scandal.

The fact is that GWR have no means to be able to operate a service using trains at the eastern end of the route for a blockade of nine days. Clearly they managed five days last year with some fairly complicated stabling arrangements, but this is longer.

The line would have to be shut between Reading and Guildford anyway, so the incremental impact is just people on the Surrey section. Passengers travelling between Reading and Gatwick have ticket easements to take alternative routes.

 

[Bikeman78]

It is at best a local scandal, but irrelevant at a national level. I'd imagine that the number of people truly inconvenienced can be measured in the low hundreds. Yes, awkward for them, but equally not a national scandal.

The fact is that GWR have no means to be able to operate a service using trains at the eastern end of the route for a blockade of nine days. Clearly they managed five days last year with some fairly complicated stabling arrangements, but this is longer.

The line would have to be shut between Reading and Guildford anyway, so the incremental impact is just people on the Surrey section. Passengers travelling between Reading and Gatwick have ticket easements to take alternative routes.

I expect the issue is where to fuel the units? I don't know if 165s have ever been to Selhurst. Another option would be a fuel tanker but I cannot think of anywhere obvious where that could be done.

 

[Deepgreen]

It is at best a local scandal, but irrelevant at a national level. I'd imagine that the number of people truly inconvenienced can be measured in the low hundreds. Yes, awkward for them, but equally not a national scandal.

The fact is that GWR have no means to be able to operate a service using trains at the eastern end of the route for a blockade of nine days. Clearly they managed five days last year with some fairly complicated stabling arrangements, but this is longer.

The line would have to be shut between Reading and Guildford anyway, so the incremental impact is just people on the Surrey section. Passengers travelling between Reading and Gatwick have ticket easements to take alternative routes.

I wasn't just referring to the NDL issue, but the whole UK railway's dwindling ability to function reliably, of which this is just the latest example. Having two week-long closures so close together on the same route is very poor, and whether GWR can manage the issue or not is not the point - it should be perfectly feasible on a well-managed railway to run trains for a big chunk of a route like this with easy reversing opportunities at Guildford (and elsewhere). Why would the line "have to be shut" as far as Guildford from Reading, when the work is at Wokingham? Why can't trains reverse at Blackwater, as they often do during such works? There won't be enough buses to replace the trains; only some of them. Alternative rail routes are not the point either, with many Gatwick passengers being unfamiliar with the UK, let alone rail route options! The railway has got to a state where its operational flexibility has declined steadily such that buses (or a lack of them) are all too easily chosen over trains where the latter are felt to be too hard to provide, but which would have been a basic expectation not very long ago.

 

[JonathanH]

I don't know if 165s have ever been to Selhurst.

They have but all the clearance has been voided, and there is no one who can take them there - see https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...t-western-railway-turbos.242525/#post-6042444

 

[Deepgreen]

I expect the issue is where to fuel the units? I don't know if 165s have ever been to Selhurst. Another option would be a fuel tanker but I cannot think of anywhere obvious where that could be done.

How long does a fill up take - 10 minutes (I don't know)? So, assuming that is about right, how about Redhill stabling sidings, Gatwick sidings or Salfords sidings on a unit rotation basis? I am sure there are valid reasons why some of the current infrastructure may not be suitable, but, again, the railway should be able to do this.

 

[Class 317]

Last year during the 5 day closure they operated a half hourly replacement bus with one bus Reading all stations to Guildford and one bus calling only Wokingham, Blackwater, North Camp.

This time only an hourly service even at peak times. Last time the morning bus was pretty much full with a couple of spare seats after Crowthorne so I'm quite worried I may not be able to board at Sandhurst tomorrow morning.

It does seem far less customer friendly to both half the frequency and extend the journey time.

Will report back tomorrow.

 

[Bread & cheese]

Why would the line "have to be shut" as far as Guildford from Reading, when the work is at Wokingham? Why can't trains reverse at Blackwater, as they often do during such works?

I believe that Wokingham signal box, which has been closed as part of this resignalling, controlled trains as far away as Farnborough (on the down line), which would place Blackwater within the area being resignalled.

 

[JN114]

Blackwater Crossover is (was) indeed under the control and supervision of Wokingham SB, Ash would be furthest towards point of obstruction.

The intention was for either an Ash or Guildford to Gatwick shuttle to be run; right up until a few weeks ago. Timetables were written, diagrams and so on.

It was then declared by NR that the route from Guildford to Basingstoke via a Reversal at Woking wasn’t gauge cleared for Turbos anymore, so units could not be cycled between Guildford and Reading.

If you consider each unit has a finite range before fuel and other checks are required (it isn’t just as simple as getting a road tanker and filling them up - fuel isn’t the only constraint), then the number of units required to operate the number of miles needed becomes more than are available in the entire fleet; unless you want to start suspending other lines of route as well. With other planned engineering blocks over the 10 days there’s less stabling space available to GWR too, so even the 5 unit Skeleton service that ran last time for the 5 day closure wouldn’t be an option; and besides only just provided enough miles for the 5 days, with cancellations towards the end as units ran out of miles.

 

[TEW]

It was then declared by NR that the route from Guildford to Basingstoke via a Reversal at Woking wasn’t gauge cleared for Turbos anymore, so units could not be cycled between Guildford and Reading.

Presumably then the 2-car 165 which failed on the last booked service on Friday will be stuck at Guildford all week?

 

[Bikeman78]

If you consider each unit has a finite range before fuel and other checks are required (it isn’t just as simple as getting a road tanker and filling them up - fuel isn’t the only constraint),

Off the top of my head, units have been stranded at Carmarthen for at least a week and north of Barmouth for several weeks. In both cases they must have been fueled by road and other levels checked by maintenance staff.

 

[JonathanH]

Off the top of my head, units have been stranded at Carmarthen for at least a week and north of Barmouth for several weeks. In both cases they must have been fueled by road and other levels checked by maintenance staff.

Where is there a suitable siding or stabling location that isn't electrified and has suitable road access between Ash and Gatwick?

Clearly water tanking has happened for steam locomotives at Shalford and Gomshall over the years, but they aren't exactly the appropriate place for fueling and maintenance.

 

[Bikeman78]

Where is there a suitable siding or stabling location that isn't electrified and has suitable road access between Ash and Gatwick?

Clearly water tanking has happened for steam locomotives at Shalford and Gomshall over the years, but they aren't exactly the appropriate place for fueling and maintenance.

Are they any less appropriate than Pwllheli or Porthmadog? I think the fueling was done at the latter.

 

[NSE]

How long does a fill up take - 10 minutes (I don't know)? So, assuming that is about right, how about Redhill stabling sidings, Gatwick sidings or Salfords sidings on a unit rotation basis? I am sure there are valid reasons why some of the current infrastructure may not be suitable, but, again, the railway should be able to do this.

The sidings don’t always road access. Driver access to many of these is via authorised walking routes (not sure if that’s the case here) but even if they did have road access, that doesn’t mean it’d be suitable for fueling. Plus you’d have to get GWR staff over to complete it. Just a non-starter.

 

[infobleep]

Last year during the 5 day closure they operated a half hourly replacement bus with one bus Reading all stations to Guildford and one bus calling only Wokingham, Blackwater, North Camp.

This time only an hourly service even at peak times. Last time the morning bus was pretty much full with a couple of spare seats after Crowthorne so I'm quite worried I may not be able to board at Sandhurst tomorrow morning.

It does seem far less customer friendly to both half the frequency and extend the journey time.

Will report back tomorrow.

As far as I can tell, the services are hourly across the whole day.

In fact, there is even a 22:25 Reading to Gatwick Airport service stopping at Guildford at 23:30. That is a silver lining as no such service runs normally around that time from Guildford to Gatwick Airport.

Blackwater Crossover is (was) indeed under the control and supervision of Wokingham SB, Ash would be furthest towards point of obstruction.

The intention was for either an Ash or Guildford to Gatwick shuttle to be run; right up until a few weeks ago. Timetables were written, diagrams and so on.

It was then declared by NR that the route from Guildford to Basingstoke via a Reversal at Woking wasn’t gauge cleared for Turbos anymore, so units could not be cycled between Guildford and Reading.

All that work for nothing. If only the gauging issue had been found out sooner. After all it isn't as if planning teams are sitting round with nothing to do otherwise. Unless that only applies to some train operating companies.

 

[Minstral25]

Blackwater Crossover is (was) indeed under the control and supervision of Wokingham SB, Ash would be furthest towards point of obstruction.

The intention was for either an Ash or Guildford to Gatwick shuttle to be run; right up until a few weeks ago. Timetables were written, diagrams and so on.

It was then declared by NR that the route from Guildford to Basingstoke via a Reversal at Woking wasn’t gauge cleared for Turbos anymore, so units could not be cycled between Guildford and Reading.

If you consider each unit has a finite range before fuel and other checks are required (it isn’t just as simple as getting a road tanker and filling them up - fuel isn’t the only constraint), then the number of units required to operate the number of miles needed becomes more than are available in the entire fleet; unless you want to start suspending other lines of route as well. With other planned engineering blocks over the 10 days there’s less stabling space available to GWR too, so even the 5 unit Skeleton service that ran last time for the 5 day closure wouldn’t be an option; and besides only just provided enough miles for the 5 days, with cancellations towards the end as units ran out of miles.

That is very poor. Totally understand units need fuelling but surely this should be planned and agreed when the block is put in place. NR are responsible for the closure & planning the closure, so when NR declared the route no longer gauge cleared they should have taken responsibility and urgently sorted it or cancelled the works.

Why is the route suddenly no longer cleared, 165's already work where there is third rail so that cannot be the issue.

The sidings don’t always road access. Driver access to many of these is via authorised walking routes (not sure if that’s the case here) but even if they did have road access, that doesn’t mean it’d be suitable for fuelling. Plus you’d have to get GWR staff over to complete it. Just a non-starter.

Haven't checked for a while but Redhill sidings used have full road access. I have seen larger vehicle's going across when I was parked in the station car park.

Even slightly up the line at Tonbridge West Year there is plenty of space if needed, and the line from Redhill to Tonbridge is cleared for Channel Tunnel freights which I think is the biggest clearance anywhere. And of course getting 165's up to Selhurst would just mean getting a pilot to go with the GWR driver - again surely withing the railways grasp.

 

[JonathanH]

Why is the route suddenly no longer cleared, 165's already work where there is third rail so that cannot be the issue.

Ride Height Modifications rendered the previous clearance void - all explained here https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...t-western-railway-turbos.242525/#post-6042444

As for getting Turbos to go to Selhurst, it all costs money and the units aren't cleared to go there any more, and the railway is under significant pressure to reduce costs.

NR are responsible for the closure & planning the closure, so when NR declared the route no longer gauge cleared they should have taken responsibility and urgently sorted it or cancelled the works.

How much would it cost to cancel all the contracts for the works? Ultimately, it is one week of disruption, not a longer term problem. By the end of this week, it will have passed. Some sense of realism is needed.

 

[NSE]

Haven't checked for a while but Redhill sidings used have full road access. I have seen larger vehicle's going across when I was parked in the station car park.

Even slightly up the line at Tonbridge West Year there is plenty of space if needed, and the line from Redhill to Tonbridge is cleared for Channel Tunnel freights which I think is the biggest clearance anywhere. And of course getting 165's up to Selhurst would just mean getting a pilot to go with the GWR driver - again surely withing the railways grasp.

I get where you’re coming from, and yeah, I does seem like something that should be resolvable on paper. But even if there is road access, road access for a fitter to drive a van up, park, and head over to fix a faulty heater is different to having access for a tanker to come up and refuel the train. As for Tonbridge, you’ll need pilots to take the train down and that’s a lot of extra organising for a week. One assumes either GWR sign the Redhill sidings or SN drivers to pilot into the sidings is a lot easier/less time consuming than all the way to Tonbridge. Plus you’d have to rework all the GWR driver diagrams to get the first/last workings to from Tonbridge. Just a lot of organising and just not likely to happen.

 

[infobleep]

Blackwater Crossover is (was) indeed under the control and supervision of Wokingham SB, Ash would be furthest towards point of obstruction.

The intention was for either an Ash or Guildford to Gatwick shuttle to be run; right up until a few weeks ago. Timetables were written, diagrams and so on.

It was then declared by NR that the route from Guildford to Basingstoke via a Reversal at Woking wasn’t gauge cleared for Turbos anymore, so units could not be cycled between Guildford and Reading.

If you consider each unit has a finite range before fuel and other checks are required (it isn’t just as simple as getting a road tanker and filling them up - fuel isn’t the only constraint), then the number of units required to operate the number of miles needed becomes more than are available in the entire fleet; unless you want to start suspending other lines of route as well. With other planned engineering blocks over the 10 days there’s less stabling space available to GWR too, so even the 5 unit Skeleton service that ran last time for the 5 day closure wouldn’t be an option; and besides only just provided enough miles for the 5 days, with cancellations towards the end as units ran out of miles.

Week long closures are unusual. What is the work being done between Guildford and Reading? It must be something that has been around for a long time to need a week to renew it.

I have just noticed when I do a search tomorrow from Guildford to Gatwick Airport, no direct buses are showing up on tge NRE app. That seems odd. It only shows going via Redhill or Clapham Junction.

Yet when I do Reading to Gatwick Airport, Guildford shows up as a stop. That doesn't seem right.

 

[Bikeman78]

All that work for nothing. If only the gauging issue had been found out sooner. After all it isn't as if planning teams are sitting round with nothing to do otherwise. Unless that only applies to some train operating companies.

That is the most depressing aspect of this. Network Rail seems to be allowed to move the goalposts. The only likely sticking points are the platforms at Woking and Worplesdon. A slight adjustment to ride heights is very unlikely to have any effect on running along the fast lines from Basingstoke to Woking which have no platforms.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

That is very poor. Totally understand units need fuelling but surely this should be planned and agreed when the block is put in place. NR are responsible for the closure & planning the closure, so when NR declared the route no longer gauge cleared they should have taken responsibility and urgently sorted it or cancelled the works.

You need some realism here, this is a weeks closure on a route which was already half closed for this week.

Pulling a major signalling recontrol is just not a good use of public finances.

Yes it’s inconvenient but many people would have already made alternative plans for this week as it was already planned for half the North Downs route to be ‘bussed’ anyway.

 

[JN114]

I honestly don’t know what caused the gauging to fall at the final hurdle; but there have been multiple landslips and structure failures along the route between Woking and Basingstoke over the past few months - if I were to guess I expect those, or more specifically the remedial work following them to make safe the infrastructure, are the culprit. Isn’t there a footbridge around there being held up by temporary scaffolding?

The route was passed for RHM Turbos in the recent past, albeit with pages of speed restrictions through various platforms.

Week long closures are unusual. What is the work being done between Guildford and Reading? It must be something that has been around for a long time to need a week to renew it.

The closure is for the decommissioning of Wokingham SB, renewal of multiple level crossings; and associated resignalling with both.

 

[greaterwest]

The only likely sticking points are the platforms at Woking and Worplesdon.

I believe the specific restriction is in the up direction through Worplesdon station where previously Turbos would have to pass through at 10mph with the suspension airbags deflated.

Isn’t there a footbridge around there being held up by temporary scaffolding?

That bridge has already been removed.

 

[JN114]

I believe the specific restriction is in the up direction through Worplesdon station where previously Turbos would have to pass through at 10mph with the suspension airbags deflated.


That bridge has already been removed.

Thanks for clarification on both counts

 

[MrJeeves]

I have just noticed when I do a search tomorrow from Guildford to Gatwick Airport, no direct buses are showing up on the NRE app. That seems odd. It only shows going via Redhill or Clapham Junction.

I would imagine that, since the ticket is "Via Gomshall" but the RRBs don't have a fake passing point at Gomshall, that could be why this route isn't being offered?

I'll see what I can do.

 

[infobleep]

The closure is for the decommissioning of Wokingham SB, renewal of multiple level crossings; and associated resignalling with both.

I am assuming that it is a once in a multi-generation project so it's unlikely that the line would need to be closed for another week any time soon.

The work is necessary but obviously, it's not great having it happen so soon after GWR introduced 2 trains an hour from Reading to Gatick Airport, most hours, Monday to Saturday.

I believe the specific restriction is in the up direction through Worplesdon station where previously Turbos would have to pass through at 10mph with the suspension airbags deflated.

I take it all the Turbo's that were modified shouldn't have been here at this time as the 769s would have been in use. So it goes back to that project not working or have I got that wrong? Would the 769s have been cleared?

I would imagine that, since the ticket is "Via Gomshall" but the RRBs don't have a fake passing point at Gomshall, that could be why this route isn't being offered?

I'll see what I can do.

Thanks. It doesn't affect me. I just find this stuff interesting.

Actually it does affect me. Just that I know they are running.

I notice the buses are scheduled to wait 15 minutes at Guildford. I assume that is to allow for buses getting stuck in traffic.

The 17:30 Guildford to Gatwick Airport bus left 2 minutes early, which was just before I arrived.

Big thanks though to the member of GWR staff who helped me. Ended up getting a train instead.

I had hoped to try out the passenger journey from the rail replacement bus stop to the Gatwick Airport platforms. I'm sure I'll get a chance one Sunday in the future.

 

[Minstral25]

Ride Height Modifications rendered the previous clearance void - all explained here https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...t-western-railway-turbos.242525/#post-6042444

As for getting Turbos to go to Selhurst, it all costs money and the units aren't cleared to go there any more, and the railway is under significant pressure to reduce costs.


How much would it cost to cancel all the contracts for the works? Ultimately, it is one week of disruption, not a longer term problem. By the end of this week, it will have passed. Some sense of realism is needed.

I can understand that RHM's could change the profile so clearance would need to be redone, but they have had well over a year (possibly more) since this work was pencilled in to get it sorted out.

Yes, solutions cost money, but you seem to forget the Railway is Public Transport (emphasis on Public) and costs of renewals should include getting passengers disrupted reliably to their destinations in a reasonable time. A long 10-day closure is going to affect a lot of passengers so it should be done properly, not telling them to go away to cut costs.

I get where you’re coming from, and yeah, I does seem like something that should be resolvable on paper. But even if there is road access, road access for a fitter to drive a van up, park, and head over to fix a faulty heater is different to having access for a tanker to come up and refuel the train. As for Tonbridge, you’ll need pilots to take the train down and that’s a lot of extra organising for a week. One assumes either GWR sign the Redhill sidings or SN drivers to pilot into the sidings is a lot easier/less time consuming than all the way to Tonbridge. Plus you’d have to rework all the GWR driver diagrams to get the first/last workings to from Tonbridge. Just a lot of organising and just not likely to happen.

My point was there are alternatives that should have been investigated and hopefully implemented, rather than abandoning passengers

You need some realism here, this is a weeks closure on a route which was already half closed for this week.

Pulling a major signalling recontrol is just not a good use of public finances.

Yes it’s inconvenient but many people would have already made alternative plans for this week as it was already planned for half the North Downs route to be ‘bussed’ anyway.

There is a lot of commuting traffic on the line from Redhill to Guildford & Woking and vice versa (For example County Hall is now in Reigate but a lot of staff live in Guildford and Woking areas). This type of traffic is badly affected by the closure, with commuting time from Redhill to Guildford 2 and half times longer. There are also a lot of Redhill to Reading commuters whose overall commuting time has doubled to over 5 and half hours (I personally know 2 people who do this 2 or 3 times a week).

Bus from Redhill to Reading is two separate bus services that do not connect which make this much worse.

As for knowledge of the closure, people were told that it would be open from Guildford to Gatwick and trains would be running. It was only on 6th Feb 24 that the notice went out to say buses. So people had no chance to replan. The original notice issued in January (I think) said that it would be Trains from Gatwick to Guildford - snip attached

 

[HamworthyGoods]

As for knowledge of the closure, people were told that it would be open from Guildford to Gatwick and trains would be running. It was only on 6th Feb 24 that the notice went out to say buses. So people had no chance to replan. The original notice issued in January (I think) said that it would be Trains from Gatwick to Guildford - snip attached

Yes and the reasons this has changed has been well documented, yes it’s not ideal but also the railway is short of funding at the moment and can’t afford to pay for the contractors to do the work twice if the works were postponed (once for an aborted set of works this week and once for a replanned set of works).