North franchises ‘will not deliver transformational infrastructure’

[pemma]

DfT must have read the article as they've released an updated version of The Northern Transport Strategy today

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...2/northern-transport-strategy-spring-2016.pdf

 

[Greybeard33]

DfT must have read the article as they've released an updated version of The Northern Transport Strategy today

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...2/northern-transport-strategy-spring-2016.pdf

The Strategy update does not seem to give much more detail than the previous issue. However, Fig.3.3 is a schematic map of "TfN emerging options for the Northern Powerhouse Rail network", with the disclaimer that it is illustrative only and may change.

For Liverpool, the map shows a new line east to join HS2 north of the triangular junction with the Manchester spur. Access to Manchester would be on HS2 via the Airport. There does not seem to be any alternative option.

For Manchester to Leeds and Sheffield, one option is a new line south of the Diggle line, passing southeast of Huddersfield and northwest of Barnsley, and joining the HS2 eastern branch in a delta junction. So rather a long route to Sheffield, shorter to Leeds. The other option is "major upgrades" to both the Diggle and Hope Valley routes; these would include major bypasses and cut-offs, making each route "akin to a new line".

For Leeds to York and Newcastle, "major upgrades" are again being considered, including the ECML section.

For Leeds to Selby and Hull, and Sheffield to Hull, "conventional upgrades" to the existing lines are being considered; these could include sections of four-tracking and grade-separated junctions as well as electrification.

For Sheffield to Meadowhall, there are options for either "conventional upgrades" or a new line.

On the next steps, the document says that:

Outline feasibility work will be completed by Autumn 2016, allowing assessment of the options before
the end of the calendar year.

 

[notlob.divad]

For Liverpool, the map shows a new line east to join HS2 north of the triangular junction with the Manchester spur. Access to Manchester would be on HS2 via the Airport. There does not seem to be any alternative option.

This was interesting for me because earlier in the document the 'vision' indicating 6 trains an hour between Liverpool and Manchester at 20 minutes. With 2 trains an hour Liverpool to the airport taking 30 minutes.

The 'options' as you said seemed to imply trains going via the airport to Manchester. I don't quite see the logic of that because if the Liverpool - Manchester train goes via the airport the times would surely be the other way around.

The 'Vision' also shows 2 trains an hour from Sheffield to the Airport, with a journey time identical to the 6 trains to Manchester. How this would ever be possible I don't know.

 

[Lankyline]

Whilst the report obviously covers both road and rail and some of this is a re-statement of what a lot of us already know, there are some interesting points that come to light,

Study into a trans Pennine tunnel (road) between Manchester & Sheffield across the Peak national park to provide all weather protection and reduce journey times by approx 30mins. This has been produced in conjunction with a study into relevant rail corridors between the two cities, what price Woodhead now ?

Smart ticketing rollout across the North

Identification of freight routing issues, capacity

The report is 33 pages long, it maybe that this report is nothing new but as always your thoughts are welcome

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...5/northern-transport-strategy-spring-2016.pdf

 

[Haydn1971]

For Manchester to Leeds and Sheffield, one option is a new line south of the Diggle line, passing southeast of Huddersfield and northwest of Barnsley, and joining the HS2 eastern branch in a delta junction. So rather a long route to Sheffield, shorter to Leeds. The other option is "major upgrades" to both the Diggle and Hope Valley routes; these would include major bypasses and cut-offs, making each route "akin to a new line".

There isn't a one or the other option, the plan is to do both a HS line and upgrades to conventional lines.

For Sheffield to Meadowhall, there are options for either "conventional upgrades" or a new line.

Ditto, it's both not options

 

[Greybeard33]

This was interesting for me because earlier in the document the 'vision' indicating 6 trains an hour between Liverpool and Manchester at 20 minutes. With 2 trains an hour Liverpool to the airport taking 30 minutes.

The 'options' as you said seemed to imply trains going via the airport to Manchester. I don't quite see the logic of that because if the Liverpool - Manchester train goes via the airport the times would surely be the other way around.

The 'Vision' also shows 2 trains an hour from Sheffield to the Airport, with a journey time identical to the 6 trains to Manchester. How this would ever be possible I don't know.

I think the 'Vision' came first, before the Strategy, as the sort of times TfN would like to see in an ideal world, without much consideration of real world routes. Now they have started to narrow down the route options, it looks like they have decided Liverpool-Manchester will be via the Airport (to make use of the HS2 infrastructure), so Liverpool-Airport will obviously be quicker rather than the other way round. And Sheffield-Airport will be via Manchester, whichever of the alternative routes is chosen, so will necessarily take longer.

 

[Haydn1971]

The 'Vision' also shows 2 trains an hour from Sheffield to the Airport, with a journey time identical to the 6 trains to Manchester. How this would ever be possible I don't know.

I read this as 6 trains per hour, with two of these doing Sheffield-Manchester-Airport in 30 minutes, four of these doing Sheffield-Manchester in 30 minutes.

This cannot be done via existing conventional lines.

 

[Greybeard33]

There isn't a one or the other option, the plan is to do both a HS line and upgrades to conventional lines.

That is not how I read the document:

On routes between Leeds and Manchester, and Manchester and
Sheffield our work to date has shown that we need to go further than committed investments in the existing
railway in order to achieve our vision for faster journeys and more frequent services. We are therefore
developing a range of options, including new lines, that look at how we could achieve our longer term
transformational vision, as well as accommodate the anticipated growth in freight.

The Transpennine Electrification/Northern Hub works on the Diggle and Hope Valley lines will happen anyway, but they are what TfN describes as "conventional upgrades". The subsequent "major upgrades" to these lines, shown in red on the map, would involve rebuilding large sections, which would not be needed if a new Transpennine line is built.

However I agree that the new line Sheffield-Meadowhall might be needed anyway, as well as upgrading to Sheffield-Doncaster, to enable direct Leeds-Sheffield journeys via HS2, even if the Hope Valley major upgrade is chosen for Sheffield to Manchester.

 

[Haydn1971]

HS couldn't be delivered until post 2035, perhaps even 2040... With even just a small growth, all existing lines will need work in the 2020's to continue to service the needs of the north. HS is long term, conventional is medium term.

 

[WatcherZero]

Im wondering whether to read into or not the map showing HS2 instead of stopping just short of Wigan now going on through Wigan till well in to Chorley.

The other things of course are formalising the Liverpool HS3 connection being via the airport which has been a rather open secret, they seem to favour the new high speed line being on a northerly alignment benefitting Leeds over Sheffield however the new road tunnel seems to be on a southerly alignment going straight from Manchester to Sheffield, either to the southern side of Sheffield or to the motorway just to the north.

 

[Chester1]

HS couldn't be delivered until post 2035, perhaps even 2040... With even just a small growth, all existing lines will need work in the 2020's to continue to service the needs of the north. HS is long term, conventional is medium term.

Are you sure about 2035-2040? A Liverpool HS link would be relatively straight forward. Allot is open countryside. Liverpool Council 20MM report suggested multiple routes. The most straight forward and political acceptable are using the Warrington-Widnes freight line (the power station is closing by 2025) and then 2 of the 4 tracks from there into an expanded Lime Street. Alternatively using the old loop line from Gatacre and a new into a new terminus on the site of the old exchange street station (above Moorfields Wirral Line station) neither would the fastest route with most of the track probably limited to 140mph but they are not complex in comparison to parts of HS2.

If planning started after the Chancellors Autumn statement in November, what are the limitations on building a trans pennine tunnel by 2033? Couldnt more expertise be bought from foreign companies if there is a shortage of skilled workers?

 

[Haydn1971]

Are you sure about 2035-2040?

Firstly 140mph isn't fast enough to meet the apparitions set out by Transport for the North - primarily to get Leeds-Manchester and Sheffield-Manchester both at 30 minutes will require two seperate lines. That will cost about 50-100% more than a single HS line from Barnsley-Manchester as is being suggested at this time linking both HS2 Phase 2 legs.

Working on the basis of HS2 Phase 1 taking 17 years to get from establishment of HS2 as a company to running of trains on Phase 1, let's assume a company is set up optimistically in 2016, then optimistically takes a similar planning time for phase 1 (8 years) and builds 45 miles of HS track, in let's say at a slightly slower speed to phase 1 (109 miles in 9 years), so say 5 years (lots of tunnels). That's going to be at the earliest 13 years from now, or 2029. But wait, HS2 has to build Phase 2 to make HS3 work (West of Manchester and Barnsley to Leeds), so again, assuming some degree of resource issues, I'd put the very earliest finish for HS3 at a couple of years after HS2 Phase 2 - so 2035.

You could of course throw money at the projects, building some of HS2 phase 2 as part of HS3, so that could move the date forward to 8+10 years (planing and I'd estimate 100 miles of HS2 track, plus Liverpool, Airport, Picadilly, Meadowhall and Leeds Stations) - 2034 !

Seriously ? I'm thinking 2035-2040 is looking optomistic