North Wales in the 1970s

[MostlyHarmless]

Afternoon all

Back in the mid 1970s I went on a school trip from my home in Hemel Hempstead to a Youth Hostel in Pont y Pant, North Wales. We went entirely by train, which was very exciting, but I can't for the life of me remember what traction would have been involved. I do know that we travelled to Llandudno Junction and then on a DMU from there to Pont y Pant (and also Betws y coed). Anyway able to help me out?

Cheers

 

[Trackman]

Just to clarify - was it direct from Hemel Hempstead to Llandudno Jct?

 

[MostlyHarmless]

Just to clarify - was it direct from Hemel Hempstead to Llandudno Jct?

I think so, although Crewe seems to ring a bell too!

 

[ChiefPlanner]

I very much doubt that the SM at Watford Junction would have got Crewe Control to pull in a train at Hemel for such a party , planned or otherwise ! - the easy option would have been a 310 of blessed memory to either Watford or MK to pick up a main line service to Crewe and change again. Both had reasonable main line services calling there.

Euston - Holyhead services would certainly have called at Crewe , but in likelihood you would have got a DMU or perhaps a LHCS calling at Llandudno Junction and change again for whatever DMU set Chester had allocated to the Blaenau branch.

 

[snowball]

a 310 of blessed memory to either Watford or MK

According to Wikipedia MK didn't open until 1982.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

According to Wikipedia MK didn't open until 1982.

Senior moment there - (and I should know better !) - then Watford Junction is key - though some I/C services called of course at Bletchley !

 

[Andy R. A.]

Would've probably been a 310 from Hemel to Rugby on the Birmingham stopper via Northampton. Possibly picking up a Holyhead train at Rugby, electrically hauled to Crewe. Loco change to either a 40 or 47 to Llandudno Junction, and probably a 108 DMU to finish ? No doubt whoever had organised the trip would've looked into the most easiest connections ?

 

[MostlyHarmless]

I very much doubt that the SM at Watford Junction would have got Crewe Control to pull in a train at Hemel for such a party , planned or otherwise ! - the easy option would have been a 310 of blessed memory to either Watford or MK to pick up a main line service to Crewe and change again. Both had reasonable main line services calling there.

Euston - Holyhead services would certainly have called at Crewe , but in likelihood you would have got a DMU or perhaps a LHCS calling at Llandudno Junction and change again for whatever DMU set Chester had allocated to the Blaenau branch.

It would have been Watford Jnc for sure thinking about it.

 

[Magdalia]

The WCML timetable was rewritten for the 1974 electrification north of Weaver Junction.

The xx00 departures from Euston served the intermediate stations at the southern end. These all called Rugby and Crewe, even hours also Nuneaton and odd hours also Stafford. There were three rotating destinations: 08/11/1400 went to Blackpool, 09/12/1500 went to Carlisle and 10/13/1600 went to Holyhead. Of these only 08/09/1600 picked up at Watford Junction, and only 0900 called at Bletchley.

The most obvious journey is to pick up the 0905 Euston-Birmingham AM10 at Hemel Hempstead and change into the 1000 Euston-Holyhead at Rugby. Similar journeys could be made 3 and 6 hours later.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

The WCML timetable was rewritten for the 1974 electrification north of Weaver Junction.

The xx00 departures from Euston served the intermediate stations at the southern end. These all called Rugby and Crewe, even hours also Nuneaton and odd hours also Stafford. There were three rotating destinations: 08/11/1400 went to Blackpool, 09/12/1500 went to Carlisle and 10/13/1600 went to Holyhead. Of these only 08/09/1600 picked up at Watford Junction, and only 0900 called at Bletchley.

The most obvious journey is to pick up the 0905 Euston-Birmingham AM10 at Hemel Hempstead and change into the 1000 Euston-Holyhead at Rugby. Similar journeys could be made 3 and 6 hours later.

One can always rely on this forum for some quantified results. Excellent stuff.

(I can imagine the Travel Centre at Watford , for a personal visit - or a local phone call , would have come up with the optimum solution) - good off peak travel too..

 

[Springs Branch]

. . . . but I can't for the life of me remember what traction would have been involved.

Regarding the OP's question about haulage, take a look at Dave Plimmer's website '2D53 Main Line Railways of North Wales':-

https://www.2d53.co.uk/index.htm

There's an excellent selection of images showing 'the vibe' of the North Wales / Blaenau Ffestiniog lines around the mid-1970s - Semaphore signalling & LNWR boxes everywhere, Class 40s with rakes of Mk1s on reliefs and excursions, Class 47s & Mk2s on Euston/Holyheads, Metro-Cammell & Derby DMUs and - last but not least - Class 24s and 25s a-plenty.

 

[billio]

Would've probably been a 310 from Hemel to Rugby on the Birmingham stopper via Northampton. Possibly picking up a Holyhead train at Rugby, electrically hauled to Crewe. Loco change to either a 40 or 47 to Llandudno Junction, and probably a 108 DMU to finish ? No doubt whoever had organised the trip would've looked into the most easiest connections ?

I seem to recall that in the late 60's and 70's, if you booked travel on a group ticket the itinerary was provided with the ticket. I don't remember scouring timetables before booking journeys. You just sent off details of where and when you wanted to go and back it all came by post. I recall it was a very good, friendly service.

 

[6Gman]

The likeliest unit for the Blaenau branch would be a Met-Camm unit but it could also have been a Park Royal or a Derby unit.

 

[MostlyHarmless]

Thanks for all the help and comments - one thing I do remember about the trip, was that it rained every single day!

 

[Whisky Papa]

This thread (and the link to the website above) has brought back rather vague but happy memories of an hour spent on Colwyn Bay station while on a family holiday in 1974, just at the start of my spotting years. A Class 24 arrived and shunted the freight yard, which I hadn't realised was even there, and a Class 40 came through with an Up loaded cattle train - the only time I can recall encountering such a train at close quarters. Passenger interest I think was limited to a Down DMU, about which I can remember nothing: it was before I had gained much knowledge about the various classes.

 

[6Gman]

This thread (and the link to the website above) has brought back rather vague but happy memories of an hour spent on Colwyn Bay station while on a family holiday in 1974, just at the start of my spotting years. A Class 24 arrived and shunted the freight yard, which I hadn't realised was even there, and a Class 40 came through with an Up loaded cattle train - the only time I can recall encountering such a train at close quarters. Passenger interest I think was limited to a Down DMU, about which I can remember nothing: it was before I had gained much knowledge about the various classes.

Curiously enough the last cattle train I ever saw was at Colwyn Bay, but hauled by a pair of Class 24s and going at what seemed a hell of a lick! Noisy, messy and smelly.

The arrangement of the goods yard at Colwyn Bay was unusual as it was some distance from the passenger station, at a significantly lower level and certainly not visible from it.

 

[Gloster]

The last BR cattle working was an ‘As Required’ service from Holyhead to York carrying Irish beef that ceased in November 1975. A Kyle-Inverness service had ceased not long before.

 

[Bevan Price]

Unless you travelled on a Summer Saturday, only the London / Holyhead trains were loco hauled (mostly Class 47s), apart from one return working between Holyhead and Manchester Victoria (usually a Class 40). If you were on the Euston - Holyhead train that departed from Crewe in the late morning, that was often used to run-in ex-works locos, even sometimes a Class 56. That loco piloted the train engine (usually a 47/4), and did not always return to Crewe on a passenger service.

There were more loco-hauled trains on Symmer Saturdays; often Class 40s, but a Nottingham / Llandudno service was worked by 25s (originally a pair, but later a single 25.) Almost everything else was a 1st generation dmu with 3+2 seating (totally unsuitable for any long journeys)

 

[Whisky Papa]

The last BR cattle working was an ‘As Required’ service from Holyhead to York carrying Irish beef that ceased in November 1975. A Kyle-Inverness service had ceased not long before.

Presumably that had been the working I chanced upon at Colwyn Bay - I'd never given a thought to the possibility that the cattle had come from Ireland, but it does explain a full train-load at such a late date. My uncle was a dairy farmer and I think the idea of moving cattle by train by the 1970s would have had him somewhat bemused!

 

[6Gman]

Unless you travelled on a Summer Saturday, only the London / Holyhead trains were loco hauled (mostly Class 47s), apart from one return working between Holyhead and Manchester Victoria (usually a Class 40). If you were on the Euston - Holyhead train that departed from Crewe in the late morning, that was often used to run-in ex-works locos, even sometimes a Class 56. That loco piloted the train engine (usually a 47/4), and did not always return to Crewe on a passenger service.

There were more loco-hauled trains on Symmer Saturdays; often Class 40s, but a Nottingham / Llandudno service was worked by 25s (originally a pair, but later a single 25.) Almost everything else was a 1st generation dmu with 3+2 seating (totally unsuitable for any long journeys)

The 0925 from Crewe was also regularly used as a running-in turn.

 

[Taunton]

Almost everything else was a 1st generation dmu with 3+2 seating (totally unsuitable for any long journeys)

Potentially unsuitable, maybe. We moved to the Wirral in mid-1960s and I saw the transition from the last of the steam intermediate services along the North Wales coast through Chester to the 2-car dmus. The most notable thing about these was the formation, usually at least 6 cars and sometimes 8, so there always, even on summer Saturdays, seemed plenty of room, and although 3+2 seats one didn't need to sit like that, unless with a small child you wanted to. The diesels used had not been new to the area, they came in from elsewhere.

Bear in mind also that, beyond the London trains, the previous steam services, generally Black 5 hauled, had been mainly ex-LMS non-corridor stock, just 5-across benches, no access to toilets, no ability to move around to spread out, restricted view out, etc.

 

[Springs Branch]

Almost everything else was a 1st generation dmu with 3+2 seating (totally unsuitable for any long journeys)

I raised a metaphorical eyebrow when I read this. I travelled on the Manchester Victoria-Llandudno/Bangor trains off and on through the 1970s - first of all on bucket & spade family days out to Colwyn Bay or Llandudno, later via Bangor or Llandudno Junction on route to walking holidays in Snowdonia with a mate. My 'lived experience' was that the trains were mostly Class 40s plus Mk.1 corridor coaches. Certainly, on odd occasions, a Metro-Cammell DMU did roll into my connecting point at Warrington BQ (cue an audible groan), but I had mostly loco-hauled stock - and exclusive use of a compartment in a Mk.1 SK was a great travelling environment for a young family of five on an Awayday.

A quick check of WTTs from the era confirms what @Bevan Price said - the great majority of non-summer SO trains to/from Man Vic were booked for DMUs, and I must have just got lucky with my high Class 40 strike rate.

Speaking of lengthy DMUs, one destination I recall seeing several times on the front of multiple Met-Camm lash-ups on the Coast line was 'Rock Ferry'. Back at the time it seemed to me an odd sort of a destination for a through train of 6 carriages - but on reflection, Rock Ferry was a perfectly sensible origin/destination, given the population of Birkenhead and northern Wirral, plus easy rail access from there to Liverpool Central. The Rock Ferry through trains seemed to run every weekday during summer, not just on Saturdays; presumably until the late 1960s they had started from Birkenhead Woodside.

. . . one thing I do remember about the trip, was that it rained every single day!

One of my rail trips mentioned above was to the YHA hostel at Pont y Pant, and it rained the whole time I was there too.

We abandoned our planned hill walking escapades and, on my mate's insistence, took the train to Blaenau Ffestiniog for the day. 1970s Blaenau was a very grim place indeed on a cold, rainy day; at one point we dared to enter a 'local shop for local people' looking for sustenance and were greeted with stares and a total shut-down of a previously vigorous conversation amongst the other customers. My preference had been Betws-y-Coed (where we might have found a cosy and welcoming tearoom or two to eke out the day) but my mate said Betws attracted too many tourists & old biddies and he 'wouldn't be seen dead' there. So Blaenau it had to be.

 

[Lost property]

Ah, Colwyn Bay memories, and the N.Wales line for that matter.

Used to go there for holidays and the yard was not really evident, until, you went for a ride on the big wheel on the adjacent fairground..now a Morrisons. I also recall there were four lines between C.B and Llandudno Jnc. plus, I'm reasonably certain CB had 3, possibly 4 platforms at the time. I am happy to be corrected on these memories.

As for the stock, certainly the excursions we got from Manchester were all single compartments.

I'm fairly certain the loco hauled stock was for the boat train, starting as it did then from Bangor, because the stock left on the island would be the same, ie loco hauled from H'Head to Llanfair PG, thence by bus to Bangor. The DMU's on the island seemed to vary between 2/3 coaches but certainly mulitiple units from Bangor albeit I only went as far as Chester on them

 

[Taunton]

I'm fairly certain the loco hauled stock was for the boat train, starting as it did then from Bangor, because the stock left on the island would be the same, ie loco hauled from H'Head to Llanfair PG, thence by bus to Bangor. The DMU's on the island seemed to vary between 2/3 coaches but certainly multiple units from Bangor albeit I only went as far as Chester on them

This I think refers to 1970 to 1972 when Anglesey had been isolated by the Menai Straits bridge burning down. A Park Royal DMU and a couple of Class 24 were left to run shuttles across the island, but more mainstream types, including all the Class 40 and 47 caught isolated there, were craned onto a ship and taken across to Heysham.

 

[krus_aragon]

I'm fairly certain the loco hauled stock was for the boat train, starting as it did then from Bangor, because the stock left on the island would be the same, ie loco hauled from H'Head to Llanfair PG, thence by bus to Bangor

That would have been the case from May 1970 to January 1972 only: after the fire on the Britannia bridge and until it's (partial) reopening. Outside of that time, boat trains would of course run through to Holyhead.

Excluding boat trains, many loco-hauled services terminated at Bangor because of limited passenger demand across Anglesey in those days. A local DMU from Llandudno Jn or Bangor was often sufficient for island traffic.

 

[Gloster]

That would have been the case from May 1970 to January 1972 only: after the fire on the Britannia bridge and until it's (partial) reopening. Outside of that time, boat trains would of course run through to Holyhead.

Excluding boat trains, many loco-hauled services terminated at Bangor because of limited passenger demand across Anglesey in those days. A local DMU from Llandudno Jn or Bangor was often sufficient for island traffic.

Reading up on it, it is an amazing example of old ‘can do’. The locos were lifted off their bogies at Valley for shipping to Barrow, while the DMU was winched through the less damaged tube when it was exchanged, as were the coaches that were repatriated to the mainland; while wagons for the Octel traffic went to the island by the same method. D5034 and D5083 remained at Holyhead to work trains to a hastily erected platform at Llanfair.P.G.; four 350 h.p. and the breakwater locos also remained on the island.

 

[Y Ddraig Coch]

There was still corridor stock with LHCS into the early / mid 90s I remember flying up and down the coast on them (usually to Holyhead) for no reason but to enjoy compartments and sticking my head out of the window. Great days. Sadly missed.

 

[krus_aragon]

The locos were lifted off their bogies at Valley for shipping to Barrow, while the DMU was winched through the less damaged tube when it was exchanged, as were the coaches that were repatriated to the mainland; while wagons for the Octel traffic went to the island by the same method.

A pleasant reflection of early ideas in the 1840s when planning the route: one plan had been to take posession of one carrigeway of the Menai suspension bridge, and haul carriages across with a stationary engine. (Some thought no bridge across the Straits could be built strong enough to take a locomotive, while also maintaining clearance underneath for the admiralty's ships.)

 

[Taunton]

There's an extensive description and illustrations of the loco repatriation from Anglesey in 1970 here:

North Wales Coast Railway Notice Board 21 May 2020

 

[Lost property]

That would have been the case from May 1970 to January 1972 only: after the fire on the Britannia bridge and until it's (partial) reopening. Outside of that time, boat trains would of course run through to Holyhead.

Excluding boat trains, many loco-hauled services terminated at Bangor because of limited passenger demand across Anglesey in those days. A local DMU from Llandudno Jn or Bangor was often sufficient for island traffic.

Thanks for that as I was there until 73 and have no recollection of actually going over the bridge at that time, but clearly must have.

And thanks for the very informative link about the bridge and the aftermath.

For those who are interested, and know where to look because there isn't much if anything left, Old Colwyn also had a station and the passenger tunnel under the tracks is, I believe, still in use.

As for the DMU's on the island, it "wasn't unknown" shall we say for them to disembark local pax....between the various stations, usually late in the day.