North Wales / North West England rail connectivity

[JSBark]

I have a question that picks up on the now closed thread about the WAG’s aspirations for North Wales.

It’s clear to me that if the WAG was serious about rail-led economic growth in north Wales it would prioritise improved connectivity with Liverpool and Manchester, which as everyone knows is woeful.

I think more creative thinking about the future of the Borderlands line may be called for in this context. There has been some discussion of new chords facilitating new direct services, but to my knowledge, no one has raised the idea of a north to west chord / link, ie a rail connection doing something akin to the A548 link road. Such a connection could facilitate direct Merseyrail services from (say) Llandudno to Liverpool.

For example I could imagine a 3 or 4 tph service alternating with a Wrexham service of the same frequency.

I’m not suggesting this as a short term option. It’s clearly a major undertaking to provide a new line across the Dee marshes, and I doubt it would be feasible in the absence of electrification of the North Wales coast and a major upgrade of Wirral Line / central Liverpool capacity.

Still I think sufficient demand could be generated given the huge improvement in connectivity it would provide. I reckon the current appalling journey times between the likes of Rhyl / Colwyn Bay could be approximately halved. Indeed, such a service would bring the majority of North Wales’ circa 600k population within easy reach of Liverpool for work / leisure, adding considerably to the city’s travel to work area and its retail catchment. Some North Wales towns have excellent housing stock that is undervalued owing to its remoteness from major employment centres. I also think there is scope for high quality housing development in North Wales.

Thoughts?

 

[JonathanH]

Such a connection could facilitate direct Merseyrail services from (say) Llandudno to Liverpool.

There is already a suitable curve at Chester though, and that hasn't been used for the purpose you are suggesting. I appreciate it is a little more indirect, but there is only 7 miles or so in it, as the line from Shotton to Bidston goes away from Liverpool.

Some North Wales towns have excellent housing stock that is undervalued owing to its remoteness from major employment centres.

Even with a curve at Shotton, it would still be 35-40 miles from Rhyl to Liverpool which is a relatively long commute for people.

People commute those sort of distances into London because of the price of housing and the work on offer, but the jobs that people commute for have to be sufficiently remunerated for commuting costs to be covered.

A bridge or barrage across the Dee estuary might make more of a difference. Indeed, extension of NPR through Liverpool, across the Wirral and across the Dee to Prestatyn would be the game changer I think you are looking for.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There are lots of proposals to extend Merseyrail to London Euston (OK, I'm exaggerating) but none of them really make any sense. Metro trains with awful hard seats and no toilets don't make sense on journeys of well over an hour. Nor does causing the Link and Loop to look more like Castlefield with massive congestion and a major punctuality problem from imported delays.

A Liverpool to Llandudno service is already planned via Runcorn (but delayed due to rolling stock availability). This is how to connect Rhyl to Liverpool better.

 

[Merseysider]

There are lots of proposals to extend Merseyrail to London Euston (OK, I'm exaggerating) but none of them really make any sense. Metro trains with awful hard seats and no toilets don't make sense on journeys of well over an hour. Nor does causing the Link and Loop to look more like Castlefield with massive congestion and a major punctuality problem from imported delays.

A Liverpool to Llandudno service is already planned via Runcorn (but delayed due to rolling stock availability). This is how to connect Rhyl to Liverpool better.

This.

As you say, Merseyrail have minimal conflicts (their own platform at Chester, separation at Kirkby, Ormskirk etc) which is partly why they're so reliable, and throwing Avanti & TFW into the mix on the NW Coast Line would bugger things up on the Liverpool loop line etc if there's a delay in Wales, and so on.

Not worth it.

 

[urbophile]

Exactly. Either Merseyrail is a self-contained suburban/metro network, and punctual, or it is a mish-mash of local and regional trains running to variable frequencies and prone to delays. You can't combine the two and I know which I prefer.

 

[Burton Road]

I'm always amazed by how long the Manchester to Chester section of the Manchester-Llandudno train seems to take. Is there any realistic way of speeding this up? It also seems unfortunate that there isn't a direct Manchester-Wrexham service, as that would seem to me to be a very effective way of driving economic growth in the town.