Northern 6-car Stoke diagrams

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Just spotted this on Realtime Trains: https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:L08375/2021-11-27/detailed#allox_id=0

This is apparently a 6-car 323. But the 323s aren't SDO fitted, and as far as I'm aware, not all the platforms along this route are long enough for 6 carriages.

How is this actually running? Is RTT incorrect, have they simply locked the rear unit locked out of passenger use, or was I mistaken (can all platforms actually accommodate the full length of the train)?

 

[Minicheddar]

Just spotted this on Realtime Trains: https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:L08375/2021-11-27/detailed#allox_id=0

This is apparently a 6-car 323. But the 323s aren't SDO fitted, and as far as I'm aware, not all the platforms along this route are long enough for 6 carriages.

How is this actually running? Is RTT incorrect, have they simply locked the rear unit locked out of passenger use, or was I mistaken (can all platforms actually accommodate the full length of the train)?

Train fits at all stations on the journey down to Stoke. Upon arrival into Stoke the guard then locks out the rear 2 coaches for the journey back to Manchester unlocking them at Stockport.

 

[Starmill]

The train departed from platform 1, not platform 3 as booked.

 

[vlad]

The train departed from platform 1, not platform 3 as booked.

You can't fit 6 carriages into platform 3. You can only just fit 3 carriages!

 

[Purple Orange]

Will 6-car running become the norm on the Stoke route?

 

[JonathanH]

Will 6-car running become the norm on the Stoke route?

Seemingly not without a rebuild of the bay platform. Reversals in the through platforms don't seem like something that would want to be increased.

 

[Greybeard33]

Train fits at all stations on the journey down to Stoke. Upon arrival into Stoke the guard then locks out the rear 2 coaches for the journey back to Manchester unlocking them at Stockport.

Prestbury Down and Cheadle Hulme Platform 3 are the platforms that are too short for 6 cars northbound.

 

[Minicheddar]

Prestbury Down and Cheadle Hulme Platform 3 are the platforms that are too short for 6 cars northbound.

Congleton is too short as well

 

[Greybeard33]

Congleton is too short as well

Indeed it is!

 

[MP393]

Will 6-car running become the norm on the Stoke route?

It should be for the rest of the Christmas period on Saturdays only, only one diagram though. Was swapped at Piccadilly in the evening (1852 arrival to form 1844 Stoke) which then got it on diagram to work the 21:44 Picc - Stoke which is the last departure which is always planned for a 6 car on Saturdays at Christmas.

 

[Andy Pacer]

You can't fit 6 carriages into platform 3. You can only just fit 3 carriages!

Probably explains why it used platform 1.

 

[CHAPS2034]

the 21:44 Picc - Stoke which is the last departure which is always planned for a 6 car on Saturdays at Christmas.

And that train is also "dry" - the only one on the Stoke line - due to over-exuberant behaviour in the past.

As a passenger, one to avoid.

 

[Purple Orange]

And that train is also "dry" - the only one on the Stoke line - due to over-exuberant behaviour in the past.

As a passenger, one to avoid.

What difference does it really make of its a dry train?

 

[py_megapixel]

What difference does it really make of its a dry train?

I think the point being made is that this service is notorious for both overcrowding and rowdiness - the "dry train" rule simply being a way of dealing with the latter

 

[Purple Orange]

I think the point being made is that this service is notorious for both overcrowding and rowdiness - the "dry train" rule simply being a way of dealing with the latter

It doesn't really deal with rowdiness. People who have been out for a few will be on that train and hardly anyone would be opting to drink on the train even if it wasn't designated as a dry train.

 

[CHAPS2034]

What difference does it really make of its a dry train?

Details here

Dry Trains

Northern | Buy Cheap Train Tickets and Check Train Times

www.northernrailway.co.uk

DRY TRAINS ON OUR SERVICES

Please be aware that some of our services are designated ‘dry trains’, meaning no alcohol is allowed on board during the journey.

These designated ‘dry train’ operations are in place on certain services with previous reports of alcohol related antisocial behaviour and disorder.

When a ‘dry train’ operation is in place, staff will instruct customers against drinking or concealing alcohol on board the train. Being obviously drunk and therefore unsafe to travel, or trying to conceal alcohol, will lead to refusal of travel under the railway byelaws and potentially prosecution.

If you do have alcohol before travel, you will be asked to dispose of it at the barrier before boarding the train. You will not be permitted to travel with alcohol, there are no exceptions made to this rule.

I assume it gives rail staff and police powers additional powers to take action if needed and hopefully that, allied to the fact that you may be checked before boarding, may deter some of the problem.

There is usually some police presence on this one I believe - a few times I have seen it make extended stops at Cheadle Hulme (from the comfort of one of the micro pubs by the station) while some trouble is dealt with.

I also vaguely remember a post, probably on here, from a Northern guard who noted that this train was one of the duties that nobody looked forward to. And a lot of the anti social behaviour comes from middle aged people rather than youngsters.

 

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It doesn't really deal with rowdiness.

Which is precisely the reason you would want to avoid that particular service

 

[Purple Orange]

Which is precisely the reason you would want to avoid that particular service

It wouldn't stop me. If I'm travelling on an evening I'm expecting people will have been out for an evening out. Its not exactly the 3am night bus. Basically designating it a dry train means nothing at all. If you're looking to avoid that particular service you don't have much of an alternative other than stopping yourself from going out on an evening and travelling by train.

 

[CHAPS2034]

It doesn't really deal with rowdiness. People who have been out for a few will be on that train and hardly anyone would be opting to drink on the train even if it wasn't designated as a dry train.

I beg to differ - there used to be plenty of drink being consumed on that train so making it dry will take some of that problem away. It was always rammed too when it was 3 car and you often found yourself next to some foul-mouthed p*sshead shouting to his/her mates and waving cans or bottles around. In addition, people trying to vault seats or get into the luggage racks seemed to be fairly common. Getting to the bog was usually impossible and that was liable to create other problems

Why should people who just want to go home having had a good day out in Manchester avoid it, especially as it's the last train to Congleton and Stoke from on a Saturday night. There are no Avanti or XC after that; at least stations to Macc at least have 2 more stoppers afterwards. It will put them off using the train all together.

The rowdiness and dry train enforcement will be dealt with on board by plod or security staff.

Northern know the problems better than you or I (have you ever been on it?) and have chosen to make it dry and 6 coach to help people spread out a bit, so there must be a reason.

 

[py_megapixel]

Months later and 6-cars are now appearing very frequently on Saturdays, particularly in the afternoon. Not sure why they aren't also doing it on weekdays - is it simply the longer platforms at Stoke being occupied at the time it needs to reverse? But I thought the timetable was pretty the same on a Saturday...

They could really do with getting 6-cars out on a Sunday as well - with the limited service, the few trains there are can get quite packed.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

Of course the drink problem could be relieved by having a train later than 2143! Not everybody will automatically move to travelling on the new later last train/s. Having such an early departure means you get the all-day drinkers, the after-match drinkers and the clubbers who cram it in and have to go home far earlier than they would otherwise.

The timetable is very thin at that time anyway with (on Saturdays) the last Avanti at 2035, a Northern at 2044, a Cross-Country at 2127, then Northern at 2143 to mop absolutely everyone up. Anyone would think than Manchester was a small village with no attractions and the Potteries a hamlet with even less!

 

[Kite159]

Months later and 6-cars are now appearing very frequently on Saturdays, particularly in the afternoon. Not sure why they aren't also doing it on weekdays - is it simply the longer platforms at Stoke being occupied at the time it needs to reverse? But I thought the timetable was pretty the same on a Saturday...

They could really do with getting 6-cars out on a Sunday as well - with the limited service, the few trains there are can get quite packed.

Someone must have heard your request as it's a pair of 323s today.

Agreed about there being a need for later trains, even if Northern ran something as a semifast service (maybe a pair of 331s) to take the load off the stoppers.

 

[artemic]

[Excuse the Staffs pun.]
Was having a snoop around RTT today and spotted 323224 and 237 working public service in multiple!
Example

They are really out there as a friend has confirmed (not just a nebulous data bug).
Obviously double 323s are physically possible (eg Cross-City) but I'm curious how they've got it to work up North where it's otherwise seemingly impossible.

Is it to do with Sunday timetabling (ie not requiring the bay platform at Stoke, plus having extra units available)?

How are the doors working? (I have heard on the grapevine that some stations' platforms are currently too short for 6 cars - no idea if that's true)

 

[jonnyfan]

Saturdays and now Sundays have seen 6 car 323s on the Piccadilly to Stoke on Trent route recently.
On this route, from Piccadilly towards Stoke all of the platforms accommodate 6 carriages, and at Stoke use the viaduct sidings to turn back.
From Stoke back to Piccadilly, the rear-most carriage is locked out, providing 5 carriages for the return journey.
High passenger numbers over the weekends are the reason for these now appearing.

 

[artemic]

Saturdays and now Sundays have seen 6 car 323s on the Piccadilly to Stoke on Trent route recently.
On this route, from Piccadilly towards Stoke all of the platforms accommodate 6 carriages, and at Stoke use the viaduct sidings to turn back.
From Stoke back to Piccadilly, the rear-most carriage is locked out, providing 5 carriages for the return journey.
High passenger numbers over the weekends are the reason for these now appearing.

Interesting that they've decided to increase capacity where it is sorely needed. (I won't comment on that too much[!])
Hopefully some plans in the woodwork for more like this (infuriatingly limited by Stoke P3)

Re stations where the platforms are too short: many of these could (given elementary situation awareness) be extended without too much pain - Cheadle's curvature and Stoke bay platform being the main stopping factors here...

 

[py_megapixel]

Interesting that they've decided to increase capacity where it is sorely needed. (I won't comment on that too much[!])
Hopefully some plans in the woodwork for more like this (infuriatingly limited by Stoke P3)

Re stations where the platforms are too short: many of these could (given elementary situation awareness) be extended without too much pain - Cheadle's curvature and Stoke bay platform being the main stopping factors here...

If Cheadle Hulme was in the south east there would be CCTV monitors for the guard to use so that they could see the whole train. Unfortunately the railway seems to be allergic to that sort of thing up north, though.

 

[Greybeard33]

If Cheadle Hulme was in the south east there would be CCTV monitors for the guard to use so that they could see the whole train. Unfortunately the railway seems to be allergic to that sort of thing up north, though.

The Cheadle Hulme northbound platform is not long enough for a 6-car 323, even if the guard could see around the curve.

 

[Cheshire Scot]

The Cheadle Hulme northbound platform is not long enough for a 6-car 323, even if the guard could see around the curve.

Not since the signal was repositioned further from the junction a good number of years ago.
The up platform at Kidsgrove is another limiting factor again due to the signal having been re-positioned in this case almost half way up the platform.
Both to provide the necessary overlaps to protect the junctions.

Otherwise, apart from Stoke platform 3, I suspect all other platforms on the route would still be good for 6 cars - they all used to take 8 car class 304s.

 

[Kite159]

I've heard that Northern even provided an extra guard to act as a ticket checker for the front unit unit today.

Probably earnt their wages by catching out those who head straight to the front unit for a less chance of having to pay full fare (bypassing the barriers in Manchester by short faring)

 

[CJ]

I travelled on one of the Stoke - Manchester services yesterday (into Manchester), and I couldn't believe how busy this service was, almost all the 6 carriages were full.

Although I'm not sure what normal loadings are like during the weekday, I think the Stoke - Manchester service being 6 carriages should be justifiable as standard/normal in the (near) future.