Northern and TPE Consultation Document

[WatcherZero]

To repeat groups are illustrative not functional phases and they stress that individual lines within groups may have higher business cases than the complete service group and vice versa but the groups to be considered are as follows:

A.
Leeds – New Pudsey - Bradford
Bradford - Manchester, Mirfield – Brighouse – Halifax/Sowerby Bridge
Todmorden/Hall Royd Junction – Burnley – Preston
Colne - Burnley
Clitheroe – Blackburn - Bolton
Kirkham & Wesham – Blackpool South

B.
Northallerton - Middlesbrough
Newcastle – Hexham - Carlisle
Darlington – Bishop Auckland
Darlington – Saltburn
Newcastle/Sunderland – Middlesbrough/ Eaglescliffe
Middlesbrough - Whitby

C
York - Scarborough
Leeds – York, via Harrogate

D
Leeds – Castleford – Pontefract – Knottingley – Wakefield – (Mirfield) - Barnsley - Meadowhall
Castleford - Wakefield
Knottingley - Goole
Barnsley – Huddersfield
Moorthorpe – Church Fenton

E
Hazel Grove – Buxton
Manchester – New Mills/Rose Hill
Stockport - Stalybridge
Hazel Grove / New Mills – Dore (Sheffield)

F
Manchester – Atherton – Wigan – Southport
Wigan – Kirkby
Preston - Ormskirk

G
Lancaster – Heysham
Carnforth – Barrow-in-Furness
Carnforth – Settle
Barrow-in-Furness – Carlisle
Skipton - Carlisle

H
Manchester – Warrington - Liverpool
Stockport – Chester, via Knutsford
Crewe - Chester
Warrington – Chester/Ellesmere Port

I
Temple Hirst Junction - Hull
Doncaster – Gilberdyke – (Hull)
Thorne – Cleethorpes
Habrough – Barton on Humber
Hull - Scarborough
Sheffield – Retford – Gainsborough - Lincoln
Doncaster - Gainsborough
Barnetby-Gainsborough
Barnetby-Market Rasen-Lincoln
Ulceby – Immingham Docks

Alternatives
Blackpool South to Kirkham & Wesham could be converted to tramway by extending the Blackpool tram network;
Kirkby to Wigan, and Ormskirk to Preston could be added to the MerseyRail electric network;
Sunderland – Hartlepool could be covered by an extension of the Metro service, with no through running by national rail services (avoiding dual voltage issues); and
Manchester – Atherton and Manchester – Rose Hill are possible extensions to the Metrolink network.


Think the only thing you can really say is the North Wales/Cheshire lines Merseyrail are pushing aren't getting a look in.

 

[northwichcat]

http://www.railnorth.org/wp-content...ication-Task-Force-Baseline-Position-v5.0.pdf

I find the claim:

Stockport - Hazel Grove In Use

interesting. Available - yes but in use?

 

[Olaf]

My objection to the D78 units is specifically aimed at the company and its marketing strategy...not the units themselves. They seem to have had their strategy accepted without enough consideration of matters.

IIRC this company is backed by venture capital so the hard-sell is to be expected. Further, I think they are only in for about $2M at the moment which would not be a big loss to them f the project went wrong, but they stand to make a substantial profit if they can sell the product. Unfortunately that is the way it goes.

 

[scrapy]

Invertation to tender should be in public domain Monday or Tuesday.

 

[GrimsbyPacer]

Invertation to tender should be in public domain Monday or Tuesday.

That should be an interesting read.
Wonder if pre-election bribes will be included??

 

[Exiled Lanc]

Invertation to tender should be in public domain Monday or Tuesday.

Presumably with an announcement regarding whether First will be running TransPennine Express until February 2016?

 

[northwichcat]

Presumably with an announcement regarding whether First will be running TransPennine Express until February 2016?

I wonder why DfT did an announcement about rolling stock before it had been agreed. A lot of what was in that announcement hadn't actually been signed off - splitting Liverpool to Blackpool services is subject to consultation and ORR approval while the deal for DRS to provide loco-hauled for Cumbrian Coast hasn't been signed. So the announcement actually looked like a case of we're robbing Peter to pay Paul but trying to scrounge some loose change to give back to Peter.

 

[TBSchenker]

Invertation to tender should be in public domain Monday or Tuesday.

Any idea what the delay is?

 

[GrimsbyPacer]

Any idea what the delay is?

I was thinking the same thing.
They will invent an excuse like they did in December.

 

[WatcherZero]

Wouldn't be surprised if it was just so a minister would be in the right place to make political capital trumpeting 'the end of pacers' or 'massive investment'.

 

[Exiled Lanc]

Any idea what the delay is?

I don't know but surely the situation is made more complex with the ongoing negotiations regarding whether or not First will operate TPE until Feb 2016.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The only official statement, from Claire Perry to Parliament, is "during this quarter" (ie Jan-Mar).
Note that the East Anglia rebid process is under way - a much easier (and profitable) proposition than Northern/TPE.
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/new-east-anglia-franchise-competition-begins
I doubt if anyone is deliberately holding things up.

 

[WatcherZero]

Local authorities have been told second half of feb for the last month or so, sunday times last weekend said monday or tuesday and had two articles on elements within.

 

[northwichcat]

The only official statement, from Claire Perry to Parliament, is "during this quarter" (ie Jan-Mar).
Note that the East Anglia rebid process is under way - a much easier (and profitable) proposition than Northern/TPE.
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/new-east-anglia-franchise-competition-begins
I doubt if anyone is deliberately holding things up.

February was said by Patrick McLoughlin last December (when the ITT was originally due to be released), then when a Labour MP asked for a date in January, Claire Perry responded by saying 'this quarter.'

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Local authorities have been told second half of feb for the last month or so, sunday times last weekend said monday or tuesday and had two articles on elements within.

Still three weekdays and a Saturday left in February 2015.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I see the Transport Secretary was in the North West today, but on road business rather than rail. https://www.gov.uk/government/news/transport-secretary-visits-the-north-west
It would have been the ideal opportunity to announce the Northern/TPE ITTs and celebrate the start of Northern Electrics.
So the ITT doesn't look imminent.

 

[WatcherZero]

Chancellors here Friday. RMT have also said today they have heard it was supposed to be this week and they presume Friday.

 

[northwichcat]

Journalists have been informed an announcement regarding the next Northern and TPE franchises will be made at Manchester Victoria tomorrow morning.

If the ITT is released maybe a new thread will be a good idea so that the discussion regarding the actual specification doesn't get hidden in a thread over 500 posts long already?

 

[IanXC]

If the ITT is released maybe a new thread will be a good idea so that the discussion regarding the actual specification doesn't get hidden in a thread over 500 posts long already?

That seems like a very wise idea!

 

[WatcherZero]

7am tomorrow announcement by McCloughlin at Victoria.

Im feeling a bit smug that I called both the confluence of transport secretary and chancellor being in the area at the same time and that they may have delayed the announcement from the start of the week so that a minister could do some electioneering.

 

[Viscount702]

Lets hope they also announce the Chord at the same time.

 

[thealexweb]

Have any of the ITT contents leaked? There seems to have been near total silence on it for a while.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

7am tomorrow announcement by McCloughlin at Victoria.

Hopefully it will be featured upon the local TV news, before many have set off to work.

 

[northwichcat]

Has any of the ITT contents leaked? There seems to have been near total silence on it for a while.

I've heard that it won't specifically mention Pacers but will say about moving towards a fleet of properly bogied trains so not ruling out taking on the Porterbrook 'accessible' Pacers and keeping them in service for the duration of the next franchise.

Also that the next TPE franchise will deliver Intercity trains (with bi-mode options) by December 2018 but North TPE electrification will be postponed to allow GW electrification to be completed on time.

Patrick McLoughlin said in response to a parliamentary question that Manchester Airport to Cleethorpes will remain a through route. Some people are saying Liverpool to Norwich won't get transferred to TPE.

Not heard any rumours regarding where the proposed Northern Hub frequency enhancements will go ahead. They included more services on the Buxton line, Mid-Cheshire line, Manchester Airport line, Chester-Warrington-Manchester line and Hope Valley line among others.

Rumour today is that the option of Northern taking on all the 319s plus the 350/4s is being looked at. Although, that certainly won't be confirmed or squashed by the wording of the Northern ITT.

 

[thealexweb]

I've heard that it won't specifically mention Pacers but will say about moving towards a fleet of properly bogied trains so not ruling out taking on the Porterbrook 'accessible' Pacers and keeping them in service for the duration of the next franchise.

Also that the next TPE franchise will deliver Intercity trains (with bi-mode options) by December 2018 but North TPE electrification will be postponed to allow GW electrification to be completed on time.

Patrick McLoughlin said in response to a parliamentary question that Manchester Airport to Cleethorpes will remain a through route. Some people are saying Liverpool to Norwich won't get transferred to TPE.

Not heard any rumours regarding where the proposed Northern Hub frequency enhancements will go ahead. They included more services on the Buxton line, Mid-Cheshire line, Manchester Airport line, Chester-Warrington-Manchester line and Hope Valley line among others.

Rumour today is that the option of Northern taking on all the 319s plus the 350/4s is being looked at. Although, that certainly won't be confirmed or squashed by the wording of the Northern ITT.

Interesting. How likely in your opinion is it that the Manchester to Preston line will be mentioned in some way? Like a binding commitment for the next TPE to restore the Scottish services to their proper route now that Liverpool to Scotland services are getting closer to reality.

 

[northwichcat]

Interesting. How likely in your opinion is it that the Manchester to Preston line will be mentioned in some way? Like a binding commitment for the next TPE to restore the Scottish services to their proper route now that Liverpool to Scotland services are getting closer to reality.

I think DfT wanted to focus more on enhancing local services at Bolton rather than reinstating long distance services.

Although, in the future there would be an option to run electric trains from Manchester-Bolton-Wigan-Preston.

Should have actually said Liverpool-Nottingham in my earlier post. There was never any plan to transfer Nottingham-Norwich to TPE!

 

[BantamMenace]

There is an article on the BBC website regarding what McLaughlin has said today, if someone could post it in the correct format that'd be great.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-30725382

 

[thealexweb]

I think DfT wanted to focus more on enhancing local services at Bolton rather than reinstating long distance services.

Although, in the future there would be an option to run electric trains from Manchester-Bolton-Wigan-Preston.

Should have actually said Liverpool-Nottingham in my earlier post. There was never any plan to transfer Nottingham-Norwich to TPE!

As someone who was a frequent user of the Bolton to Edinburgh services I just don't understand this mentality. Yes we all know more commuting capacity through Bolton is needed but there is scope for long distance services too. Over the last few decades nearly all of Bolton's long distance services have been decimated. What if Wigan North West and Stockport, both stations with lower passenger numbers than Bolton last time I checked, were told they were losing the vast majority of their intercity services to pursue a commuting only strategy.

Virgin Trains provides Intercity services north and south of the big cities Birmingham, Crewe, etc but not Manchester in the northwards direction for some reason. Virgin Trains' Scotland to London Euston via Birmingham New Street have long journey times but have been well received. Post-electrification of the Preston to Manchester line why can't Scotland to London Euston via Manchester services exist in place of Transpennine. And yes I do realise this be part of a new West Coast franchise with another order of 390s.

 

[WatcherZero]

There is an article on the BBC website regarding what McLaughlin has said today, if someone could post it in the correct format that'd be great.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-30725382

That was 8th January and he was referring to the shuffle of 319>156>185>170 to ensure TPE didn't lose too much capacity from the pinching of the 170's.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Sure more stuff will hit us tomorrow but this has been posted at Midnight, the scheme proformas that will be prioritised. (mods feel free to split off into new thread if/when appropiate)

http://www.railnorth.org/wp-content...ation-Strategy-Baseline-Review-of-Network.pdf

This is the position as of Autumn 2014, running data used for statistics taken from September and population catchments from 2011 census. Each 'tier' has been previously ranked 1-6 by Network Rail, 1 being highest priority. 72 Line packages have been examined and grouped into 34 service groups (i.e. matching lines to the service diagrams). Each scheme also has a brief description of challenges, complementary schemes and the schemes promoters.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Surely now is the time to wait for these last few hours to elapse before hearing what actually is to be announced.

Then, as was stated in an earlier posting, a new thread should appear to then discuss what actually has been said. Our highly respected member of the forum staff, IanXC, has already given his blessing to this idea.